Word-Faith?

[SpiritPsalmist]

Ok isreal I remember you now. . .I thought I recognized the name. . .but just could not remember. . .sorry.

Perhaps, if you don't mind we could talk via Pm. . .this sounds kinda complicated. I do have some questions for you but it would be better PM. Would that be OK with you?

 

[Andrew]

Then how can someone teach on what we need to do to be healed when they can't even get it right themself?

That's like saying how can preachers preach about heaven and the 2nd coming when they havent even experienced it.

And as I said in an earlier post, this causes a contridiction. If we are to have faith to be healed, going to a doctor contridicts that faith. We're relying on something other than God for healing.

God is gracious and meets us at the level of faith we have. If A has faith that he will be healed via medicine or an op, then God will meet him at his level of faith. eg Does God expect you to have great faith for evangelising, telling you that you must evangelise as Paul did or it's not counted? No, start where you are, with the measure of faith you have.

they ignore the possibility that God ALLOWS sickness to come on people as a form of discipline.

Study Hebrews 12. God chastises (Greek- child-trains) using his Word to our spirit, not with sicknesses or accidents. Do you child-train your kids with cancer or break their legs to stop them from running around too much? Then why accuse your Father of that?

 

[usadingo]

I agree with you. . .it is contradictory. This is where I see that I am not really in FULL agreement with God. My eyes read it in the Word, my mind agrees that since God said it, it is true. However, my body is in rebellion to what my head agrees with.

Can't you see the danger here in this teaching?
People are refusing to go to a doctor because they don't want to admit doubts in their faith. As a result, people are getting sicker and dying. I personally don't think this is the will of God.
And I'll say it again, just to make sure people understand me. I do think people can be healed today. I just don't think the view of guarenteed healing is true. I believe it's God's will as to whether or not we're healed.

I wish it all happenedd that simply, but as of yet, for me, it has not. But I can hope. . .and faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1. We have to be careful how we use it though. I've actually seen some Word of Faith teachers twist this verse at times to state that faith is a physical substance, when in reality, other verses show something much diverence. I've always prefered the translation that uses "assurance" rather than "substance."
And I thank you for your honesty in your last post. (not that you were lying before)

 

[usadingo]

• F---false
• E---evidence that
• A---appears
• R---real

I've always thought it's odd how the Word of Faith movement makes fear out to be this horrible thing, yet God tells us to fear Him.
Strange how God would want us using something negative as something we should do towards Him.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Can't you see the danger here in this teaching?
People are refusing to go to a doctor because they don't want to admit doubts in their faith. As a result, people are getting sicker and dying. I personally don't think this is the will of God.

But don't people experience this "not wanting to admit doubts in their faith" on the spiritual side too? How many times do people have to be told that God has forgiven them but yet they are racked with guilt and condemnation for things they did 20 years ago?

And I'll say it again, just to make sure people understand me. I do think people can be healed today. I just don't think the view of guarenteed healing is true. I believe it's God's will as to whether or not we're healed.

You can't guarentee something that is in the past. Jesus "did" (past tense) it at the cross. It's already done. I'm just not in FULL agreement with Him yet. Ya know, walking out fully what I believe in my head.

Hebrews 11:1. We have to be careful how we use it though. I've actually seen some Word of Faith teachers twist this verse at times to state that faith is a physical substance, when in reality, other verses show something much diverence. I've always prefered the translation that uses "assurance" rather than "substance."
And I thank you for your honesty in your last post. (not that you were lying before)

Either way dingo, even though I don't see what God says IS, does not mean it is not reality.

In my opinion, honesty is always the best policy. I share what I myself have experiened and what I went through and how I came to understand and am still needing to understand, something that is a difficult thing to understand. That's the only way I know how to do it.

Quaffer

 

[usadingo]

I go to a word faith church and have a qustion for everyone. I had my pastor tell me something wasn't biblical because it was old covnet and old testament and that i had been decived. Last year i felt God was wanting me to do something and i prayed about it and i begain on a long jurney and many remarkable things have happned to me. I got to a point were i felt i was to do omething very serious and i had to know it was his will for me. So i prayed and asked God saying lord if this is your will give me a sign that i can not deny, because i do not trust my feelings but i wish to do your will. I recived an imediate answear and was touched by the spirit and given gifts. But my pastor told me what i did was wrong first because i asked his will and didn't state what i wanted and belive for it and two because what i did was like gideons fleecing and was external and acording to the new covnet everything is internal now. He even sugested my gifts were from the devil and i went into a sobbing fit because i have given up everything to follow God and i live for what he has shown me, if i have been decived nothing i live fpr means anything.

Your pastor is probably using the passage found in Luke 4:12 where Satan is tempting him. When told to throw himself off of where they were, Jesus told him not to "test the Lord thy God." What your pastor may be forgetting is that the original verse Jesus quoted was Deut 6:16. Or, part of the Old Covenant. But did you do what was right in the eyes of God? I think so. Even though many may say praying for a sign is testing God, people like Gideon did the same thing when they felt God was telling them to do something.
As for praying for God's will, not only is it fine, but it's Biblical. Even Jesus Himself told us to pray for God's will. (Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done...) Needless to say, it's not the only part in the Bible that tells us to pray for God's will in our life.
I'd simply say to remember that your pastor may be a pastor, but I can assure you pastors still make mistakes. I know, I'm a pastor's kid.

 

[israel_knight]

I asked my Dad about it who was a misionary and took theology and he said pastor was wrong, i'm just wondering if anyone agrees with him and if its a word faith teaching. The worst thing i can see from doing such a thing is that it would show a lack of faith but i had faith in what i was supose to do it was just very serious and i couldn't afford to be mistaken if i was it could have messed up my whole life.

 

[usadingo]

That's like saying how can preachers preach about heaven and the 2nd coming when they havent even experienced it.

No, it's not. If a Christian were to die, they would go to Heaven whether they just became one, or whether they'd been one for all their life. The gift is immediate for those who ask.
With sickness, these teachers, and many others ask, but rarely is it immediate.

God is gracious and meets us at the level of faith we have. If A has faith that he will be healed via medicine or an op, then God will meet him at his level of faith. eg Does God expect you to have great faith for evangelising, telling you that you must evangelise as Paul did or it's not counted? No, start where you are, with the measure of faith you have.

When God told someone to lead/teach, He went with them, showing them where to go and what to say. Simply consider Moses when he told God he wasn't good at speaking.
If we're sick, and ask for healing that God "promises" than we should expect that healing immediately.

Study Hebrews 12. God chastises (Greek- child-trains) using his Word to our spirit, not with sicknesses or accidents. Do you child-train your kids with cancer or break their legs to stop them from running around too much? Then why accuse your Father of that?

Who says it's God's will for me to be sick? Who says it isn't? We do not know God's will. Our bodies are temples and so we do our best to take care of them, which is why we go to doctors (Luke was a doctor), but if it is indeed God's will for us to pass then we will pass, and our will be darned. God is sovereign and his ways our higher than ours and his plans and purposes unknown to us. His plans rule, not ours.
Why don't all of you faith-possesser's pray for Billy's Parkinson's to go away? Even if he doesn't get-it yet, you do so you can give the guy a hand so he can stick around longer and do God's work.
It's too bad for us, really. And God. Billy's done so much for the Kingdom, but he's sick and old and he's going to pass away soon. If he could pray correctly he'd last longer, and that's apparently God's will, for him not to be sick. It's too bad God can't heal Billy without Billy's help. He needs Billy to properly ask for the healing in faith; once he does that He can heal him so the crusades can continue.
Too bad for Jeremy Camp and his wife - if only they'd have watched more TBN they wouldn't have had to experience her death by cancer.
What a whimpy God this is... sure, he's omnipotent, but He really can't do anything down here for us unless we properly ask him first. He WANTS to heal us. It's HIS WILL to heal. But he's bound by our ignorance. He just can't get the job done without our help. What a weak God. I thought he was supposed to be, like, you know... God. His will means nothing without our will and our faith thrown in... sad for him.
Of course no one wants their child to experience pain. But we also want our children to grow up. And any parent of an adult will tell you that eventually you have to let them make their mistakes. As a parent you WANT them to be good, healthy, well-rounded people, but if you consistantly try and control their lives and protect them from the outside world they will never become that. They have to make choices for themselves, and sometimes those choices will bring consequences that are hard. Hopefully you've raised them in a way that they can learn the right things.
That's what free will is about. God loves us. He loves us so much he sent his son to die for us. But we have free will, and we live in a sinful, fallen world. Everyone has free will, even those who are evil. So that means that sometimes we Christians are going to suffer. Sometimes the unjust and sinful will be rewarded. Sometimes the righteous will be poor. The promise we hold onto is that we will spend all eternity with our Savior, and it is THERE that we will be rewarded.

 

[usadingo]

But don't people experience this "not wanting to admit doubts in their faith" on the spiritual side too? How many times do people have to be told that God has forgiven them but yet they are racked with guilt and condemnation for things they did 20 years ago?

Doubts in faith are still that person's fault though. God says they are forgiven. Being human, it's tough to move on and put it behind us, but letting it plague us is our own fault.
If God says have faith and you'll be healed, and then you go to a doctor, you're admitting to settling for methods less than God. A.k.a. a lack of faith. If God says have faith, and you don't, it's disobedience.

In my opinion, honesty is always the best policy. I share what I myself have experiened and what I went through and how I came to understand and am still needing to understand, something that is a difficult thing to understand. That's the only way I know how to do it.

Quaffer

Makes sense to me.
I'm starting to see us as two rams on the Discovery channel. Most of the time they walk around eating grass and being all quiet. The moment you look away from the screen, WHAM!! They butt heads. Moments later, they're eating grass again.
It's kinda fun...

 

[usadingo]

I asked my Dad about it who was a misionary and took theology and he said pastor was wrong, i'm just wondering if anyone agrees with him and if its a word faith teaching. The worst thing i can see from doing such a thing is that it would show a lack of faith but i had faith in what i was supose to do it was just very serious and i couldn't afford to be mistaken if i was it could have messed up my whole life.

I hope you don't mind me saying from a non-Word of Faith standpoint, there's a difference between doubting, and disobeying. If God tells you to do something you're unsure of, it's normal to question things, and have moments of doubt. However, the moment you tell God "No" when He tells you to do something, you're disobeying.
"Trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight."
I've always liked the the part that says not to lean on our own understandings. Why? Because we don't know God's will fully when we're told something. What we do know, is that we need to do what He tells us to do. As long as we do this, He'll lead the way.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Doubts in faith are still that person's fault though. God says they are forgiven. Being human, it's tough to move on and put it behind us, but letting it plague us is our own fault.
If God says have faith and you'll be healed, and then you go to a doctor, you're admitting to settling for methods less than God. A.k.a. a lack of faith. If God says have faith, and you don't, it's disobedience.

That's exactly the point I'm making dingo! Disobedience is a big issue with God. . .so it's a good thing that we are saved by grace and not works. . .lest any of us could boast about how obedient we are.

All of us are given the same measure of faith. . .how we make it grow, is based on how much we are willing to let go of our own thinking processes and take on His thinking. Ya know, "My ways are not your ways". The scriptures are the directive to building on that faith. I don't see that God has given this knowledge as an order that we are banished to hell for not getting it perfect and down pat. If that were the case then we are all in trouble.

Makes sense to me.
I'm starting to see us as two rams on the Discovery channel. Most of the time they walk around eating grass and being all quiet. The moment you look away from the screen, WHAM!! They butt heads. Moments later, they're eating grass again.
It's kinda fun...

Yes. . .it is kinda fun. I grew up with Pastor's kids and we did this kinda stuff all the time. We made each other think.

 

[look]

I've always thought it's odd how the Word of Faith movement makes fear out to be this horrible thing, yet God tells us to fear Him.
Strange how God would want us using something negative as something we should do towards Him.

Again, a clear lack of study and understanding, you really should know what you are talking about, before you open your mouth...

The word fear when used in the context of fearing or fear the Lord is not be scared, rather it means "to hold in reverence, to honor and in a high place in your heart
Go look it up, and stand corrected. Only sinners should be scared of God, not us!

I wonder, do you get off, on having your kids so scared of you that they can't appreciate you as their "daddy"? It sure sounds like it...

God is more deserving than that, respect and honor Him, don't be scared of Him...

Boy, you sure have a lot of religious ideas of God and His kingdom!
Religion will turn otherwise smart and wise people into foolish and easy to be taken in, types of people.

Have you wondered why it's the "WOF" ministeries that are doing the most work for the Kingdom of God? GO AHEAD AND PROVE ME WRONG!!! I DOUBLE HOT DOG DARE YOU AND QUOTE YOUR SOURCES AND MAKE SURE YOUR SCRIPTURE REFERENCES DIRECTLY ADDRESS YOUR STATEMENTS!!!

Have fun...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

brother look. . .can ya ease up just a weeeeee bit. . .please

 

[look]

Of course no one wants their child to experience pain. But we also want our children to grow up. And any parent of an adult will tell you that eventually you have to let them make their mistakes. As a parent you WANT them to be good, healthy, well-rounded people, but if you consistantly try and control their lives and protect them from the outside world they will never become that. They have to make choices for themselves, and sometimes those choices will bring consequences that are hard. Hopefully you've raised them in a way that they can learn the right things.

How strange, you advocate children making choices for themselves (free will) and realizing "that sometimes those choices will bring consequences that are hard", but you can't fathom that God is exactly the same way, He won't FORCE His will (healing) on you...

Either that's a symptom of blindness, or willful ignorance...nah, that's just religious thinking, that's all...

 

[look]

Sorry Quaffer, I'm just talking to him in the language he understands, that's all...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

 

[look]

He does seem to be

by religion.

What can I say?

Naw, I think he is just

 

[4sightsounds]

Have you wondered why it's the "WOF" ministeries that are doing the most work for the Kingdom of God? GO AHEAD AND PROVE ME WRONG!!! I DOUBLE HOT DOG DARE YOU AND QUOTE YOUR SOURCES AND MAKE SURE YOUR SCRIPTURE REFERENCES DIRECTLY ADDRESS YOUR STATEMENTS!!!

Have fun...

You have to be kidding....

 

[Andrew]

I've always thought it's odd how the Word of Faith movement makes fear out to be this horrible thing, yet God tells us to fear Him.

You are mixing up 2 different types of fear. Fearing God is not like fearing a rattle snake or fearing death. Fearing God is reverent fear for his awesome goodness, love and power. Jesus best translated it to "worship" when he quoted from the OT and used "worship the Lord" instead of "fear the Lord".

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

No, it's not. If a Christian were to die, they would go to Heaven whether they just became one, or whether they'd been one for all their life. The gift is immediate for those who ask.

You seem to be off track here. I was adressing your question "Then how can someone teach on what we need to do to be healed when they can't even get it right themself?" Do all preachers get it right themselves when they talk about heaven, the rapture etc, things they have not experienced? Does that mean they are not qualified to teach? We certainly dont teach based on our experiences but on the Word revealed.

If we're sick, and ask for healing that God "promises" than we should expect that healing immediately.

It is immediate in the spiritual, otherwise, Jesus wld not say "when ye pray, BELIEVE YE RECEIVE". But the manifestation into the natural may be immediate or it may be gradual -- "and ye shall have them", "and they shal recover". One of my Pastors and his wife wanted children from day one but she just could not conceived. They held on to God's Word for 7 years. She's now pregnant again with her fourth child. Abraham and Sarah waited for years too, even after the promise was given.

Who says it's God's will for me to be sick? Who says it isn't? We do not know God's will.

So how do you know it is God's will for your unsaved friends to be saved??? Maybe its not His will? Read the Word. His will is revealed in the Word. Jesus bore not just our sins but our sicknesses and pains (Isa 53). HEALING IS IN THE REDEMPTIVE WORK OF CHRIST!

 

[look]

Post #216[/url]]In fact, in one study, they found the majority of homeless people are mentally ill and unable to hold down jobs or do many basic tasks.

Where did you get that information?
According to a Ford Foundation study, 50 percent of homeless women are on the street to escape violent partners.

There goes the "majority"...

Not only that, according to a new article, "For some people, homelessness is a transitory situation, precipitated by job loss or separation from a violent partner. For others -- especially those struggling with drug addiction or mental illness -- lack of shelter is a chronic problem. http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,60124,00.html

I refuse the idea that it's their own sin that got them where they are.

Really? Don't you know that you are where you are in life because of the choices you made and because of the words you said about your life?

Don't think so? What did Jesus mean, when He told us that, "The Literal Translation (J. P. Green's Greek and Hebrew Interlinear version)...Mar 11:23 For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says."

What about James? He told us that the tongue (words of your mouth) can starts things into motion, look at the forest fire analogy.

Remember what Jesus taught? He said, "...for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. To be saved, you have to believe in the Lord Jesus and confess with your mouth that He has risen? (ROM 10:10).

This is the SAME principal as Mark 11:23! SAY and BELIEVE...This applies to ALL aspects of life.

This can be said of each human ever born on this earth, "You are the 'prophet' of your life". What you believe and confess will occur in your life. It is a spiritual Law that's just as valid as the Law of gravity!

How many times, in a setback, have you said, "I'll never get anywhere", or "never be able to save any money", or I'll never make any money"? How about "I'll never be able to afford that car"?

You are where you are in life, because of what you have said. You are the prophet of your life, you can't get around that...

The homeless are victims of their words that they have said, or because of words someone else spoke into their lives (that's called a curse, the opposite of blessing)...

If you think all of what I said is a bunch of hooie, then why did Jesus say this? The Message Translation...Mat 12:36 Let me tell you something: Every one of these careless words is going to come back to haunt

you. There will be a time of Reckoning. Words are powerful; take them seriously.
Mat 12:37 Words can be your salvation. Words can also be your damnation."