Word-Faith?

[SpiritPsalmist]

dingo,

Well. . .that is quite a list you have compiled. . .I can totally understand how foolish it all looks. I really don't know what to say. . .and even if I did I don't know that it would be sufficient for you anyway.

I'm not claiming perfection for me or anyone else. I know that I personally have struggled with many of the arguments you bring up. I still go to a doctor. I continue to take medication she says I need. I wear glasses. What can I say but . . .I'm not perfect.

I believe that God has given man his knowledge and ability in the area of medicine. I do not believe that going to a doctor is sin and while it may disagree with what some teach it does not disagree with what I teach nor with what I believe.

I believe, as Didaskalos said, "God is good and His mercy endures forever". So. . .even if my circumstances don't match what I believe the Word to say. . .it does not matter. . .God is True to His Word and I have Hope, that whatever happens, He is Faithful.

It's been an interesting time talking with you. You may not have much respect for me and the seemingly contradictive beliefs but that's OK. . I'll get over it

Anyway, I just want to let you know that I have appreciated your input.

Bye for now,

Quaffer

 

[SnuP]

Found some stuff online. Interesting tidbits about some of the preachers of this kind of teaching. If what they teach is true, then how come...

Many mighty men of faith have failed when it came to personal victories. Not usually because they lack faith, but normally because of some heart issue. Where they could not recieve from God, because they could not believe that they deseaved it.

Wigglesworth for instance suffered from kidney stones and even a stroke, but was able to move past many of these issues to find deliverance. His own wife had to beseach him to stop raising her from the dead, because as she said, it was her time. Funny how a heart still lacking the fullness of love will act.

I think that it is a bad idea to judge the validity of a doctrine, by the personal failures of its teachers. Every christian belief would have to be thrown out if that was the measuring stick.

 

[look]

Not only that, from my experience, it's easier to pray and believe for someone's healing or answer to whatever they are in lack from, than it is to pray and believe for your situation!!! When it's someone else, you don't have to contend with all of the conflicting issues that your faith would have to fight against as compared to getting results for yourself...That reminds me of what the Scriptures said in 1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith!

There is a very interesting warning in the same chapter, it would seem to apply to this matter;

• The Message translation...1Ti 6:3 If you have leaders there who teach otherwise, who refuse the solid words of our Master Jesus and this godly instruction,
  1Ti 6:4 tag them for what they are: ignorant windbags who infect the air with germs of envy, controversy, bad-mouthing, suspicious rumors.
  1Ti 6:5 Eventually there's an epidemic of backstabbing, and truth is but a distant memory. They think religion is a way to make a fast buck.
  
• 1912 Weymouth New Testament...1Ti 6:3 So teach and exhort. If any one is a teacher of any other kind of doctrine, and refuses assent to wholesome instructions--those of our Lord Jesus Christ--and the teaching that harmonizes with true godliness,
  1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with pride and has no true knowledge, but is crazy over discussions and controversies about words which give rise to envy, quarrelling, revilings, ill-natured suspicions,
  1Ti 6:5 and persistent wranglings on the part of people whose intellects are disordered and they themselves blinded to all knowledge of the truth; who imagine that godliness means gain.
  
• 1898 Young's Translation...1Ti 6:3 if any one be teaching otherwise, and do not consent to sound words--those of our Lord Jesus Christ--and to the teaching according to piety,
  1Ti 6:4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and word-striving, out of which doth come envy, strife, evil-speakings, evil-surmisings,
  1Ti 6:5 wranglings of men wholly corrupted in mind, and destitute of the truth, supposing the piety to be gain; depart from such;
  
  
• The Amplified Bible...1 Timothy 6:3 But if anyone teaches otherwise and does not assent to the sound and wholesome messages of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and the teaching which is in agreement with godliness (piety toward God),
  4 He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions,
  5 And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth...
  
• The King James Version...1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
  1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
  1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
  
• The 1894 Scrivener Textus Receptus...
  1Ti 6:3 ει τις ετεροδιδασκαλει και μη προσερχεται υγιαινουσιν λογοις τοις του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου και τη κατ ευσεβειαν διδασκαλια
  1Ti 6:4 τετυφωται μηδεν επισταμενος αλλα νοσων περι ζητησεις και λογομαχιας εξ ων γινεται φθονος ερις βλασφημιαι υπονοιαι πονηραι
  1Ti 6:5 παραδιατριβαι διεφθαρμενων ανθρωπων τον νουν και απεστερημενων της αληθειας νομιζοντων πορισμον ειναι την ευσεβειαν αφιστασο απο των τοιουτων JUST IN CASE YOU WANT TO ARGUE IN GREEK...

Considering the latter end of vs. 5, from such withdraw thyself, I follow after the statutes of Jesus and wipe the dust off my shoes (hands and keyboard?)

Goodbye, usadingo...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

usadingo,
Let me say one thing, and I hope the others concur. Sometimes it is very difficult. Your mind and flesh rage against the Word of God. When I feel a headache or some other symptomcoming up, it is sometimes a stuggle to continually remind myself that by His stripes I was healed. Sometimes it would just be easier to give in to the symptoms and let nature (or the devil) have his way. But on the other hand I also have to remember a very important fact: Jesus already suffered these symptoms. It is either injustice toward Him or for me to suffer these again. Why would I want my Lord to suffer for something that I was going to endure anyway?


1Co 11:
28 But let a person be examining himself, and in this manner let him be eating of the bread and let him be drinking of the cup.
29 For the one eating and drinking unworthily [or, in a careless manner], eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning [or, correctly judging] the body of the Lord.
30 For this reason, many among you* [are] sick [or, weak] and infirm [or, ill], and many are fallen asleep [fig., have died].
31 For if we had discerned [or, correctly judged] ourselves, we would not have been judged.


Here we see that people are sick, weak, ill, and even die because they do not understand or "discern" the body of the Lord. If you understand that the body of the Lord has already endured these things, then you will have faith to overcome them.

 

[look]

I concur with you, yes, Vs. 30 is very interesting...

 

[usadingo]

usadingo, what in the world does this have to do with what God said in His Word?!? Just because we are imperfect doesn't mean God is a liar. You seem to be making God out to be a liar. I've shown you what God said and you have rejected that. It's your choice, not to walk in faith, I guess...

And you seem to make God out to be Santa Claus.
I've rejected what you've said because it's not scriptural. For it to be, I would have to twist it or find hidden meanings not mentioned in the original context.

I think you got frustrated at the scriptural insights I was giving you, you must hate being corrected and having your ignorance exposed. That's not my fault, obviously you don't respect your elders. This speaks of a root of bitterness in your heart. I would advise you to seek the Lord's face about it and ask Him to show you how to get rid of it. I can tell you from my experience, that it will eventually stop your prayers, if it hasn't already...

And yet somehow, my prayers do get answered. I don't pray for proseperity, only provision, and my needs are met daily. I don't pray from freedom from sickness, only help along the way when needed, and I get sick maybe once a year at the most. I follow what God says in His word, and I don't doubt my salvation.
And no, I don't get frustrated at spiritual insights. I get frustrated at scriptural twisting. Ignorance? While I don't claim to be a genius, I do have enough common sense to see the context in a biblical passage.
And thought you all said it was me who resorted to insults...hmmm....

Also, I can see the spirit of gloating in you. Why else would you stake your reputation on "hearsay"? It might be true, but it is still "hearsay". Have you bothered to check what God said about gossip? You sound positively jubliant of the bad reports you have taken into your heart. I'm sorry you couldn't be edified or even see what I was talking about, but, that's your choice. Welcome to the human world...

Ah yes, I forgot. All information must be straight from our own research without the aid of books, interviews from other sources, TV, etc. We'd better throw out the Bible while we're at it. Not written by us, y'know. Same with dictionaries, encyclopedias, commentaries, etc.

Oh BTW, most of those people you mentioned, are not "WOF", not only that, Jesus still used them to bring healing and salvation to the people who needed it. Regardless of your attacks, God was glorified by the many people who got healed and saved...However, I would do something about your penchant for taking hearsay as the Gospel...

Thrown the word "hearsay" around as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact of what happened to these people. Their death certificates still remain the same. Insulting me won't change anything. Nice try though.

 

[usadingo]

Dear friend,
If every saint, preacher, prophet, and apostle died of cancer... God is still true. Every man is a liar. What is faith other than believing what appears on every surface to be false? You do not need faith to believe what appears obvious.

It just seems odd that no teaching of the healing messages everyone on here writes about has figured out how to do it right. No faith teacher has made it past 120. The death rate remains the same.
It just seems odd that in a gospel where everything is so easy, healing would be practically impossible.

 

[look]

NOT FOR USADINGO...
*shrug*

Religion teaches manmade doctrines. One is "God put sickness on you, so He can teach you something". If anybody really believes that, then be a good christian and let's pray for God to put a really disfiguring and painful cancer on your face. That should impress God, huh? Oh hallelujah, let's give God the glory, let's pray to get sick, for His glory!!!

Wow, what a revelation...right...

 

[usadingo]

Shows how much you know...

Let's use common sense. Mildew is listed in the same passage as disease. If we're free from all the things listed, as you say, then we should be free from mildew.
Shows how much you know.
In fact, it's verses like this that show the Word of Faith movements fatal flaw. It's logically incorrect. Almost every other religion can be called incorrect, but at least they make some sense. They just mess up in certain areas. The Word of Faith movement is logically incorrect though.
They take verses to support their message, but not the passage. Why? The passage shows the context, and the context shows it wrong.
They teach things like guarenteed healing. They say we can live in perfect health with enough faith. Then they go to doctors when sick. They can't see the contridiction. Going to a doctor demonstrates a lack of faith in God to heal. Of course, I'm sure you say something all the faith teachers have crammed in your head to counter argue this statement.
They teach that we can financially prosper through God, when He teaches the dangers of money, and it's un-importance over and over again. The Bible praises the poor with holy hearts, and criticizes the rich.
But my favorite is they take a verse written before the Bible was every put together that states we are to follow God's will, and twist it so they can claim that the Bible is God's will. Why? So they can pull random verses in order to support what they think is best, and ultimately put their limited mortal knowledge of God's will for them, and call it God's will.

No, it's called lack of knowledge...HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...

Wrong again. This passage is about the Israelites disobeying God. He was "destroying" them for their constant disobedience. Of course, you might know this for yourself if you wouldn't listen to the "hearsay" of Word of Faith teachers and instead actually look at the CONTEXT of the passage itself.

Yes, it really is a shame, if only people like you would stop whining and start supporting the Gospel with your tithes and offerings...then we would have the best tools money could buy and we could get the job done...

In the words of Jesus, stop judging and make a right judgment. Who are you to say what I do or do not do?
There's a huge difference between our money being used for missions and claiming that people in third world countries are sinning or ignorant because they're poor.

Kenneth Copeland Ministeries and their partners have given over 20 million dollars to an African outreach where over 6 million souls got saved last year. KCM and their partners are credited with over 62 million souls saved in the last 38 years.

What have you done?

And again, if you'd read your bible you'd see what little importance God puts on money.
As for what I've done, size of ministry has nothing to do with it's importance. Now that's ignorant reasoning. Bill Gates has teamed up with Bono of U2 to supply millions for AIDS research in Africa. I suppose his outreach program is more important than the Copelands. After all, he gave more money.

None of us don't have to be sick and what's wrong with just living a full life and then leaving your body in good health and going home?

Nothing is. However, looking upon the Bible tells us how we live in a world of decay, and dying isn't exactly "leaving our bodies in good health."

Really? Where does the Scriptures actually say that?

2 Cor 12:7- "And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

Wrong, try praying in God's will and remember, 2COR 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

I believe God gives us what's promised. However, you still have yet to demonstrated God promises us healing while on this earth, or prosperity (remember, not provision.) You've tried, but you have yet to show a passage that can't be explained away.
But I do agree that we should follow God's will. I simply believe that God's will IS God's will. Not our limited interpretation of what we think God's will is.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

And you seem to make God out to be Santa Claus.
I've rejected what you've said because it's not scriptural. For it to be, I would have to twist it or find hidden meanings not mentioned in the original context.

dingo, I know you're not talking to me here, but I have given you many scriptures. In my opinion I have not twisted any of them.

And yet somehow, my prayers do get answered. I don't pray for proseperity, only provision, and my needs are met daily. I don't pray from freedom from sickness, only help along the way when needed, and I get sick maybe once a year at the most. I follow what God says in His word, and I don't doubt my salvation.
And no, I don't get frustrated at spiritual insights. I get frustrated at scriptural twisting. Ignorance? While I don't claim to be a genius, I do have enough common sense to see the context in a biblical passage.

I pray that I be able to handle whatever God wants to give me. I want to be able to obey the command to feed the poor. . .but at this time in my life I am not able to do that. . .so if you consider that type of prayer to be praying for prosperity. . .well. . .Oh well.

I asked you this once before but I don't think you answered me. Forgive me if you did, but I don't remember it. Anyway, do you believe you know all there is to know about "any" given scripture? Is there nothing new that God "could" show from "any" given scripture? And are you telling me that I am stuped because I see something that you do not?

Ah yes, I forgot. All information must be straight from our own research without the aid of books, interviews from other sources, TV, etc. We'd better throw out the Bible while we're at it. Not written by us, y'know. Same with dictionaries, encyclopedias, commentaries, etc.

I gave you the scripture written out from the concordance and you rejected 2 out of the 3 definitions. You only accepted the one that said "spiritual healing" and rejected the 2 that said included "physical and emotional healing". Why?

 

[usadingo]

Well. . .that is quite a list you have compiled. . .I can totally understand how foolish it all looks. I really don't know what to say. . .and even if I did I don't know that it would be sufficient for you anyway.

I'm not claiming perfection for me or anyone else. I know that I personally have struggled with many of the arguments you bring up. I still go to a doctor. I continue to take medication she says I need. I wear glasses. What can I say but . . .I'm not perfect.

And I'm simply saying that it's odd that in a gospel of simple things, something like healing would seem practically impossible. This list shows that even the teachers can't get it right.
Would we have our hearts operated on by someone who doesn't know where it is? Or on a simpler note, our cars fixed by someone who doesn't know a piston from a drive shaft? Then how can someone teach on what we need to do to be healed when they can't even get it right themself?

I believe that God has given man his knowledge and ability in the area of medicine. I do not believe that going to a doctor is sin and while it may disagree with what some teach it does not disagree with what I teach nor with what I believe.

And as I said in an earlier post, this causes a contridiction. If we are to have faith to be healed, going to a doctor contridicts that faith. We're relying on something other than God for healing.

I believe, as Didaskalos said, "God is good and His mercy endures forever". So. . .even if my circumstances don't match what I believe the Word to say. . .it does not matter. . .God is True to His Word and I have Hope, that whatever happens, He is Faithful.

And I agree. We have been born into a sinful, decaying world. God sent His Son to redeam us from it, so that even though we currently live in it, we one day will be with Him for eternity and rejoice in the redemption of our bodies from this world.

It's been an interesting time talking with you. You may not have much respect for me and the seemingly contradictive beliefs but that's OK. . I'll get over it

On the contrary, I have nothing BUT respect for you. While we've had our moments of frustration, I think we can both agree that we're striving for truth. Of course, I'm sure we can both agree that each of us have something limiting us from the truth in each other's eyes.

Anyway, I just want to let you know that I have appreciated your input.

Same here. Without it, it would be a one sided arguement. A debate with no counter arguements is ranting.

 

[usadingo]

1Co 11:
28 But let a person be examining himself, and in this manner let him be eating of the bread and let him be drinking of the cup.
29 For the one eating and drinking unworthily [or, in a careless manner], eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning [or, correctly judging] the body of the Lord.
30 For this reason, many among you* [are] sick [or, weak] and infirm [or, ill], and many are fallen asleep [fig., have died].
31 For if we had discerned [or, correctly judged] ourselves, we would not have been judged.


Here we see that people are sick, weak, ill, and even die because they do not understand or "discern" the body of the Lord. If you understand that the body of the Lord has already endured these things, then you will have faith to overcome them.

Actually, a quick study of the passage reveals that this passage is about people who come to communion for wrong reasons. They don't see the significance of it, and abuse it.

 

[usadingo]

*Not for Look*
And the Word of Faith movement teaches that those who are against the Movement teach God puts sicknesses on people to teach them a lesson. While this can be true at times, they ignore the possibility that God ALLOWS sickness to come on people as a form of discipline.
It's a lot more logical than teaching God's will is for guarenteed earthly healing. After all, this teaching makes unrepentant sinners out of the sick earnestly searching for Christ's help. It teaches the healthy are better in God's eyes than the people wheeling out of a Benny Hinn crusade in wheelchairs. In other words, it's kind of like a spiritual racism.

 

[usadingo]

I pray that I be able to handle whatever God wants to give me. I want to be able to obey the command to feed the poor. . .but at this time in my life I am not able to do that. . .so if you consider that type of prayer to be praying for prosperity. . .well. . .Oh well.

I'm actually refering to those within the movement that teach God promises them new cars, designer clothes, and lots of money for no reason. The same people who twist verses to claim Jesus himself was financially rich and owned a big house, etc.

I asked you this once before but I don't think you answered me. Forgive me if you did, but I don't remember it. Anyway, do you believe you know all there is to know about "any" given scripture? Is there nothing new that God "could" show from "any" given scripture? And are you telling me that I am stuped because I see something that you do not?

I believe that by looking at the context of a verse and comparing it to other verses, we can see what was intended when the verse was written. Too many times, the problem is "the verse." The answer is "the passage." Many times, groups take one verse as a proof text for their beliefs while the passage or other scriptures put that verse in context. A lot like when the JW's use the verse that states Christ will return with an archangel's voice as their proof text that Jesus is the incarnate of Michael the Archangel. However, when we look at other passages, we see things like Angels telling people not to worship them, yet Jesus accepts worship. There's of course other passages where Jesus is made reference to being God as well.
But, can we fully know scripture? I believe God can reveal things about scripture. Can those revelations change what's said in scripture? No. God's word is never contrary to His message.

I gave you the scripture written out from the concordance and you rejected 2 out of the 3 definitions. You only accepted the one that said "spiritual healing" and rejected the 2 that said included "physical and emotional healing". Why?

You'll have to direct me back to which posts you're refering to. I'm not saying you're wrong. I simply forgot what you're talking about here. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I didn't reject it, it simply made no sense.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

And as I said in an earlier post, this causes a contridiction. If we are to have faith to be healed, going to a doctor contridicts that faith. We're relying on something other than God for healing.

I agree with you. . .it is contradictory. This is where I see that I am not really in FULL agreement with God. My eyes read it in the Word, my mind agrees that since God said it, it is true. However, my body is in rebellion to what my head agrees with.

It's true. . my faith is not really there. I wish it were, but it's not. . .but I can still remain standing. I can still keep speaking the Word, and my ears still hearing it and somewhere, sometime, whether it's here, there, or in the air. . .I won't be struggling with this stuff anymore.

Thank you Jesus! Yes, at times, I struggle with feelings of condemnation. . .but as time goes on and I continue to fight, I am learning to keep the enemy under my feet instead of in my face. I'm learning to hear and walk according to what I hear and see in the written Word, that God says, instead of what the enemy, or the people around me, or my doctor says. Even she (my doctor), with one problem I was having. . .after giving me all the tests and finding nothing wrong looked at me and told me they were "false symptoms from the pits of hell" and then she layed hands on me and prayed for me. I've never had another problem with that particular problem again.

I wish it all happenedd that simply, but as of yet, for me, it has not. But I can hope. . .and faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

 

[look]

Dear Quaffer;
Actually, emergency rooms and doctors are ok, it gives you a chance to get charged up on the promises of God, then your faith will manifest your healing. The hardest part is acting and being convinced that God's promise is true, even when the natural is telling you otherwise. Do like Abraham did, call those things that be not, as though as they were...after all, aren't we the seed of Abraham? Remember, fear will rob you of God's best!

• F---false
• E---evidence that
• A---appears
• R---real

Blessings...

 

[israel_knight]

I go to a word faith church and have a qustion for everyone. I had my pastor tell me something wasn't biblical because it was old covnet and old testament and that i had been decived. Last year i felt God was wanting me to do something and i prayed about it and i begain on a long jurney and many remarkable things have happned to me. I got to a point were i felt i was to do omething very serious and i had to know it was his will for me. So i prayed and asked God saying lord if this is your will give me a sign that i can not deny, because i do not trust my feelings but i wish to do your will. I recived an imediate answear and was touched by the spirit and given gifts. But my pastor told me what i did was wrong first because i asked his will and didn't state what i wanted and belive for it and two because what i did was like gideons fleecing and was external and acording to the new covnet everything is internal now. He even sugested my gifts were from the devil and i went into a sobbing fit because i have given up everything to follow God and i live for what he has shown me, if i have been decived nothing i live fpr means anything.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Dear Quaffer;
Actually, emergency rooms and doctors are ok, it gives you a chance to get charged up on the promises of God, then your faith will manifest your healing. The hardest part is acting and being convinced that God's promise is true, even when the natural is telling you otherwise. Do like Abraham did, call those things that be not, as though as they were...after all, aren't we the seed of Abraham? Remember, fear will rob you of God's best!

• F---false
• E---evidence that
• A---appears
• R---real

Blessings...

Thank you look.

Actually, the physical stuff I experience now is nothing compared to what I was going through a couple of years ago. For my age and weight, I'm considered to be very healthy. I'm rarely sick now, however, I do take medication for a low thyroid and high blood pressure. I wish I did not have to take these med's but for now I do.

I can remember back 2 years ago at this time though and I was extremely anemic due to constant hemmoraging. . .for years, every month became a horrendous experience. Over time (10-15 yrs) became every day, all month, for months. It was approaching a year of this constant hemmoraging when I finely told the doctor enough was enough.

The doctors had tried everything and not one of them worked. I was dealing with my own rollercoaster emotions plus having to deal with people who would take it upon themselves to inform me that I "needed to go to a doctor". I was going to a doctor, several doctors and nothing worked. Everything that worked for everybody else did not work for me.

Then I stumbled upon Kenneth Copeland's program one Sunday. I can remember listening to him and becoming so infuriated that I was standing in front of the TV screaming at it. But I kept listening. Every Sunday morning. Then one day the light came on and I understood what he was talking about.

From that moment of understanding, a lot of physical changes for the better began to take place. However, it just got to a point where I just did not want to fight anymore. I was tired.

I believe, no woman (at least most) unmarried and without children, wants to have an operation to remove all hope of it. But that is the decision I made and I don't condemn myself for it. The enemy tried his darndest to put condemnation on me but I fought back. Nobody in my church condemned me either.

Since then. . .I now have the physical and emotional strength to deal with the enemy and not allow him to attack me any more and it get to the point that it had reached at that time. I had a lot of prayer support and know that had it not been for His grace and mercy I would not be here today to incourage others in this area.

I also believe that every person who had to touch my body as a result of the enemy's attack is claimed for the Kingdom of God because God is in me and that day, they came in contact with Him and they will never be the same.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I go to a word faith church and have a qustion for everyone. I had my pastor tell me something wasn't biblical because it was old covnet and old testament and that i had been decived. Last year i felt God was wanting me to do something and i prayed about it and i begain on a long jurney and many remarkable things have happned to me. I got to a point were i felt i was to do omething very serious and i had to know it was his will for me. So i prayed and asked God saying lord if this is your will give me a sign that i can not deny, because i do not trust my feelings but i wish to do your will. I recived an imediate answear and was touched by the spirit and given gifts. But my pastor told me what i did was wrong first because i asked his will and didn't state what i wanted and belive for it and two because what i did was like gideons fleecing and was external and acording to the new covnet everything is internal now. He even sugested my gifts were from the devil and i went into a sobbing fit because i have given up everything to follow God and i live for what he has shown me, if i have been decived nothing i live fpr means anything.

I'm sorry isreal_knight Have you attended this church for very long? How did your Pastor respond to your reaction?

While I believe that as we grow and mature in the Lord we will/should get past "fleeses", it certaintly is nothing to be condemned over. God knows your heart and does not give stones when His children ask for bread.

What kind of gifts are you referring to? Matt 7:11 says, "if you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more will your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

It is important too, as you've said to give your life up to Him. Your life for His. To live for Him. . .it's all about Him. Not the gifts, not the knowledge. . .nothing but Him.

I'm surprised that a Pastor would say such a thing. . .were you able to question him more throughly to make sure that what you believe he said is what he really meant? I know I had to do a lot of questioning with restating to those I learn from what I thought I was hearing and I'd say all of the time, what I thought I was hearing was not what they said.

When we start moving closer to God the enemy becomes agitated. You are becoming a threat to him. Therefore he must do something to cause you to stop your quest for God. Usually the way he does that is by causing you to hear things in a distorted way so that you become discouraged and angry and then you give up. Something to think about maybe?

I'm praying for you.

Quaffer

 

[israel_knight]

I've attened the church for almost two years now. My pastor just thought i was decived and sorry he told me that God spoke through feelings dreams and vision and he wouldn't aswear me in this way. I didn't ask by any lack of faith on my part i belive thats why he answeared me.

I didn't even realize what the gifts were when I recived them. I was asking about a broken hearted girl I had seen her in a dream and i had a gyt feeling about her so i asked God if it was his will for her to be the one i was suposed to marry because the two of us were getting very serious. I had to know for sure because i have never so much as held hands with a girl and have waited for the one i knew was from God. The gifts i recived and i've made posts about these gifts before were a shaking or quaking and a gift of tounges. the significant part of which is the gift of tounges i can under stand what i am saying in tounges i speak a langauge i have never learned. Italked to my girl friend about it and discoverd that she had been given the same gift we thought it was normal but then found out it was unique to us. i had no prior knowledge of her gift upon reciving mine so i belive in it. it goes much deeper than that but i want to keep this short.

I found out that my girl has some problems and i have talked to my pastor about them and he tried to tell me it wasn't my palce to help her and she wouldn't listen and he thinks i shouldn't date her now.