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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Yekcidmij, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    And I think you're ignoring that the Bible is God's inspired word. What the narrator wrote was inspired by God. If the beginning of Job says he was blameless in God's eyes, than we can assume that Job was, in fact, blameless in God's eyes.

    If you look at the context of this passage, you'll see that these accusations about Job are from the three men. They stopped answering Job because they felt he was righteous in his own eyes. I don't think we should take the people who talked to Job as information on who God is. These people told Job to blame God for things that had been happening. They thought they knew better than Job. Therefore, when Job refuses to do what they say, and claim obiedience to God, Job comes off as "righteous."
    But again, the book of Job starts off by saying God viewed him as blameless when God allows everything to happen. I'm going to stick by what the Bible says.
  2. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    UMMM. Those are stated as fact, not someones opinion. I thought you were really high on correct use of the English language? It does not say that they stopped answering Job, because they thought... As you say, they Bible is written by God, and if something is stated as fact by the narrator of the story (God) then it is fact. Job was righteous in his own eyes, and Job did justify himself rather then God. You can see that just by reading Job's oration. But like I said on the last post, this discousion really is pointless since we both already know where the other stands and neither of us is going to budge.

    Don't you want to discouse whether or not God's will is sovereign?
  3. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    I simply say, pick up a commentary. They explain this passage of Job very well.
    If you want to move on to a different topic, that's fine by me too, because yeah, the Job thing really isn't getting us anywhere.
  4. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States

    Last night, I searched and found the only Steve Taylor tape I have. It was fun listening to it again. I have not heard any of his newer song, such as the one's you mentioned. The whole sad story. . .is he still singing? What label is he under?

    [​IMG] Either way. . .it means the same thing.

    Mmmm, not really dingo. . .death is death. In Gen 2:17 God said to Adam "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
    Until that moment there was no death of any sort. Adam was not physically sick, mentally sick, or spiritually sick. But on the day that he disobeyed, he died. Immediately, was the spiritual death. He tried to hide from God when God came to fellowship with him.

    Why? Because he was ashamed (feelings of shame can lead to mental sickness). According to what God said in Gen 3:16 Adam, who up to that point had been trained by God himself in how to be a good husband and Adam viewed himself as equal with his wife, would now think she was less than he (corrupted thinking).

    Then because their eyes were now opened to the knowledge of evil (all they'd ever known before was good), they now began to experience what evil would do to their bodies.

    They now had to wear clothing, not just to hide shame but to protect them from the elements. Elements that had previously been perfect now brought harshness that would hurt them. . .and over time they would age (there was no mention of age until after Adam sinned), and then the body would die due to the corruption due to all that new-found knowledge. . . the knowledge of evil (AKA sin)

    But dingo, God's Will is to show Mercy. . .in the making of the Arc of the Covenant there was a seat with the title "Mercy". The Lord proclaimed of Himself before Moses in Exe 34:6, 7 "the LORD passed before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty". He shows His Mercy on all who fall on His Mercy. The only one's who don't get it are those who don't fall on it.

    James 2:12, 13 "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgement is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgement". This scripture is talkng specifically to us. Telling us to show mercy. But since we are also told we are being conformed to His image then we must assume that mercy is His image. The one who show's no mercy would be "of their father, the devil" because he, the devil shows no mercy. We however, are of our Father, God, who IS mercy and compassion.

    It's His goodness that leads us to repentance. (Rom 2:3-5). Again, it does not matter the exact setting of said scripture. . . God's nature is mercy and bringing us to repentance, then showing more mercy by freeing us from our sins. Since where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, we are now free to be what He's called us to be. . .WHOLE. . .in body, soul, and spirit. Should we assume that are soul's are free but our body's and our spirit's are left in bondage and at the mercy of our enemy? I think not.

    If nothing else dingo, sickness is the result of the sin of ADAM. There was no sin in the world until Adam sinned. On his sin alone, man is infected with it. However, by the mercy of One Man, willing to bear ALL our infirmities, which according to Webster is defined as 1)feebleness, 2) disease, ailment, 3) a personal failing, by His stripes we are/were healed of all those infections (1 Pet 2:24 & IS 53:5).

    Of course God can and does teach us things through our sicknesses. While I believe that sin does equil sickness (body, soul, and spirit), sickness does not equil sin. IOW, if one is sinning there will be sickness of some sort in their life. Sickness in body, sickness in soul, and/or sickness in spirit. However, once one is freed from the "curse of the law" they are free. Period.

    It is not a sin to be sick. Sickness is a result of some of the "old man" still hanging around (you said some of us sin every day) Yes, it may take the rest of our lives getting rid of all traces of that "old man" and while we're learning all that God wants to teach us through it we can/should stand in faith that one day. . .whether it be here, there, or in the air :) We are/were made WHOLE.
  5. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    Right. Spiritual death. While physical death entered the world at this time, spiritual death was the death being mentioned of when God said "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Aparently, Adam didn't physically die that day. He went on to live over nine-hundred years.
    And spiritual death is what I feel is in mention in Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." If physical death is what is being talked about, then why are we not experiencing physical eternal life? Why is the death rate still one for every person?

    But if we look at the greek, the word for healing that's used is "rappah" which is in reference to spiritual healing, not physical. Peter even states in 1 Pet 2:24 that it's sins that we were healed of. So unless you can demonstrate where the Bible says sickness is sin, than I don't believe we have a guarenteed healing from our sicknesses, and I still hold to my belief that God can use sickness for his benefit.
    Remember, I do believe healing can occur today. It's just not guarenteed. I say this for the new comers who may pass by and comment without reading my previous posts.
    But again, there's biblical evidence of God using afflictions for His good, and I stand by that. And I'll always stand by my belief of Job being an example due to the fact that he's refered to as a great man of faith in numerous parts of the Bible.

    I rearranged your post and put this at the bottom because it may take a little longer to explain.
    Technically, he's not currently singing. He was, however, the surprise performance at Cornerstone Fest. this year. There, he did a press confrence on what happened to his label, Squint.
    Basically, he was given the label under Word entertainment, and was allowed full power to do what he wanted. Many great acts like Sixpence None the Richer, Chevelle, Insyderz, L.A. Symphony, etc.
    The person who gave Taylor the label was replaced by some bigwig in the Country music scene. He sat down with Taylor and basically said he didn't see the bands that were signed going anywhere, and were temporary pop success. (of course, any fan of these bands will tell you differently, along with sales figures.) Anyway, this guy also stated how all these bands made the label very diverse, which he wasn't a big fan of. Mainly because in country, there's one fan base, one type of radio station, certain venues...all very specific. To which Steve states how in his mind he was thinking, "And that's why country music sucks."
    So, this guy asks if he can have a demo of L.A. Symphony (the next big thing according to Taylor.)
    Taylor asked if he wanted the demo to enjoy their music, or to critique them and make decisions about them. This guy implied the second, Taylor refused, and within 24 hours, he was told Squint was being sold to Word.
    Taylor decided he would try and buy the label himself, and used his own money to fund L.A. Symphony as they toured since their album was almost done. Meanwhile, he teamed up with Big Idea Productions (Veggietales folks) and they agreed help him out.
    Eventually though, Big Idea didn't have the money they thought they would, and Squint was bought out, haulting the production of a lot of artists like L.A., and leaving them without a label.
    Taylor talked about how this was also a hault to the project he had going, "St. Gimp." It was an claymation film he was making with the guy behind "Wallace and Gromit" and the "Chicken Run" movie.
    Nowadays, Taylor stated his focus is back on films, which was his college major. He's not too sure where music will come into play in the future, but he left a lot of things in the open.
    As for his current music, here's a short run down of what happend. When they did the tribute to Steve Taylor album, a lot of bands covered his songs, and Steve liked them so much, he started doing a lot of his songs that way.
    His album, "Squint" carried on that style. The most recent song he did that I can think of, was "Shortstop" on the Roaring Lambs album, and is absolutely incredible. I can only hope he puts more stuff out due to this fact.
    He also worked with the Newsboys by co-writing a lot of their songs for their "Thrive" album, and produced it. Needless to say, most people will agree it's Newsboys best album to date.

    So, there's the general update. Hope it made sense.
  6. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    Matthew Henrey's Commentary on the Bible
    Job 32
    v. 1. Those that are self-conceited are indeed hard to be wrought upon; there is more hope of a fool (a fool of God’s making) than of those who are fools of their own making, Prov. 26:12.
  7. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States

    First I want to thank you for all the info on Steve Taylor.

    So. . .on with the debate :)

    Well dingo, we don't really know what "time" was in relation to this conversation between God and Adam. However, in 2 Peter 3:8 we are told "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Work of of that scripture alone. . .Adam most certaintly did die the same day.

    dingo, I specifically said in another post I was not saying that we would never die. . .
    The reason we don't have eternal physical life is because God through Adam and Eve out of the garden so they would not eat of that tree too. (Gen 3:22, 23)

    As previously mentioned, I do not believe that sickness is sin. Here is that part of my post again for you
    As far as the Greek word "rappah", here are my findings.

    1 Peter 2:24 in Greek.


    IS 53:5 in Hebrew

    Spiritual healing is included but not exclusive. Note the words: to make healthful and healer & physician of men.

    Spiritual healing is included but not exclusive. Note the words: to make healthful and healer & physician of men.

    In Job 42:5 Job say's "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear: but now my eye sees You." Being a great man of faith had nothing to do with Job being sinless.

    Yes, Job is a great example for us. . .we may know about God and we may do all the right things for all the right reasons and that will make us righteous. However, until our "eye" sees Him, we will be operating on our works and not His.

    In order for Job to remain "righteous", God had to allow correction to come. The hedge was down and God pointed that out to satan (small s done intentionally). satan, seeing the hedge was down, attacked full force and Job, in righteousness, stood fast and never cursed God. But what was really in Job's heart spoke (Matt 12:34) very clearly and we find Job not only repenting in chapter 42 but we see ALL his riches, his health, and the hedge of God back.
  8. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    If I can locate the full transcript, I'll let you know. It's an amazing read.

    I think we can agree that sin is responsible for physical and spiritual death. Seeing each others viewpoint fully on Romans 6:23 wouldn't really pull the debate in either direction, so I think it's safe to agree.

    My mistake on some of the stuff you said. I apologize.

    Of the three, the first link didn't work. Sorry.
    I don't see your point in the third. I think it was simply to show where it's used. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
    And as for the second, I mainly got that the "healing" in these verses includes "cure, heal, and to be made whole." Of course, when we look at the footnote of what it means to "be made whole" we find "to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation," which is in reference to spiritual matters.
    So here's my take....
    These verses talk about how Christ came to cure/heal us from the curse of spiritual death.
    It still doesn't answer why early church fathers continued to get sick, and there being no evidence of them "claiming their healing."

    Still though, we have Matthew 8:16-17 which states Jesus healed to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah. This was before the attonement on the cross. Because it was done before the atoning work on the cross, it's not guarenteed.

    This still doesn't answer why things happened to Job before your so-called proof-texts of Job sinning. I still believe the Bible when God calls Job blameless before anything happens to him.
    A basic search on the word "blameless" in the Bible shows it appearing alongside words like "spotless" "pure" and "holy." If we look up "blameless" in the dictionary, we find "Free of blame or guilt; innocent."
    But let me pose a new question to you.
    I think you'd agree to the statement that sin allows bad things like sickness in our lives, and God wants to free us from such things.
    So my question is, if sin brings about things like sickness, and God doesn't want His children sick, is He really all powerful? If we have to claim our healing, how powerful is a God who has to wait for us to act?
  9. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    This shows how much you are "hearing" the Word of God. I don't mean that to provoke you, I'm merely pointing out that you could be missing something that is in the Bible. I don't intend to offend you and if this offends you, please forgive me...I'm not here to argue, that's called strife or variance. James 3:16 tells us that there is every evil work in strife. That includes sin and sickness, so I refuse to argue. By the way, could this be the reason Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust off their feet when a city rejected their teaching?

    Jesus, when He was here in the flesh, took upon Himself "flesh and blood" and because He was born a Jew, He was under the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Everything Jesus did before the Cross was under the Abrahamic Covenant. He was operating fully in that Covenant and under that Covenant, healing is provided. However, if there was no faith, then Jesus could not heal or do "mighty works" (the Jews were to be a blessing to the nations from God, however, Jesus and His disciples were the only ones fufilling that call at that time). Lack of faith or lack of knowledge will keep you from receiving the will of God for your life.

    My point is, healing was provided in the Old Covenant, if certain conditions were met. And in the New Covenant, the same thing is true.

    Did you know that the women of the slain warriors of Israel "received their dead, raised to life" after each war? And this was during the Old Covenant times...
    Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:
    Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
    Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.(Not space aliens;))
    Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again:...

    Everything Jesus did, He had scripture to stand on...even the walking on the water trick. I can give you the scripture for the water trick, if you would like. Remember, Peter couldn't have been able to walk on it, if it wasn't provided for under the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Just food for thought, considering that the New Covenant is better than the old one... :)
  10. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    But faith cometh by hearing, and hearing, by the word of God. That tends to be one the Word of Faith radio station around here loves.

    Don't worry, it's cool. I understand that you're trying to help.

    That's the difference though. I, along with others who don't believe healing is guarenteed, do not believe sickness is "evil." We believe that God can, and often does, use it as a form of discipline to train up his children.

    I've always held to the belief that Peter walked on the water because he had faith in Christ, who was calling him out. When he took his eyes of Jesus, he began to sink, because his faith shifted from what Christ was telling him to do, and back onto his amazement that he was walking on water.
  11. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States
    Thank you dingo, I would like that.

    I was trying to do this in a simple way and the links worked fine when I tested them yesterday, but, oh well. . .

    1 Peter 2:24 (Greek)
    Portion of verse aiming at: "ye were healed"
    Strongs Number: 2390
    Outline of Biblical Usuage:
    to cure, heal
    2) to make whole
    a) to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

    Clicking on the word heal referred me to: Mt 8:8, 13, Mt 13:15 , Mk 5:29, Luke 4:18, 5:17, 6:17, 19, 7:7, 8:47. Just to name a few. . . there were 2 pages of similar verses using the same Strong's number for the word healing in that verse.

    IS 53:5 (Hebrew)
    Portion of verse aiming at: "for our transgressions"
    Strong's Number: 06588
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) transgression, rebellion
    a) transgression (against individuals)
    b) transgression (nation against nation)
    c) transgression (against God)
    1) in general
    2) as recognised by sinner
    3) as God deals with it
    4) as God forgives
    d) guilt of transgression
    ]e) punishment for transgression
    f) offering for transgression

    Portion of verse aiming at: "for our iniquities"
    Strong's Number: 05771
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
    a) iniquity
    b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
    c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity

    Portion of verse aiming at: "of our peace"
    Strong's Number: 07965
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) completeness, soundness, welfare, peace
    a) completeness (in number)
    b) safety, soundness (in body)
    c) welfare, health, prosperity
    d) peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment
    e) peace, friendship
    1) of human relationships
    2) with God especially in covenant relationship
    f) peace (from war)
    g) peace (as adjective)

    Portion of verse aiming at: "we are healed"
    Strong's Number:07495
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) to heal, make healthful
    a) (Qal) to heal
    1) of God
    2) healer, physician (of men)
    3) of hurts of nations involving restored favour (fig)
    4) of individual distresses (fig)
    b) (Niphal) to be healed
    1) literal (of persons)
    2) of water, pottery
    3) of national hurts (fig)
    4) of personal distress (fig)
    c) (Piel) to heal
    1) literal
    2) of national defects or hurts (fig)
    d) (Hithpael) in order to get healed (infinitive

    Because they, like us, were/are not perfect and did not have everything they knew to be true down pat and formulaized. They were learning too.

    The evidence I believe is found in the scriptures where we are told to "fight the good fight", put on the full armor of God", "don't give place to the devil", draw nigh to God", "he that rest's in the secret place", "blessed is the man who walk's not", "the prayer of faith", etc., etc..

    :scratch: In what way does this prove there is no guarentee? I refer you back to the above notes from IS 53:5

    I'm going to refer you back to SnuP's post here:http://www.christianforums.com/t41121&page=10 Post # 96. Then I ask the same question. . .Do you believe that Job was sinless?

    And I will answer with a question: if people are dying and going to hell, and God desires that all be saved, was what Jesus did at the cross really all powerful?

    I personally feel that "claim" is a poor choice of words. :) In all honesty, I struggled with this too. I asked myself: if it's already done, why do I have to do anything? Why does'nt it just "come" to me?

    But then we could ask those same questions regarding salvation. If we're saved by what Jesus did then why do we have to do anything? We should be able to just eat, drink, and be merry and know we're going to heaven. . . just because! But we all know it does not work that way.

    I do not view it as a means of informing God and making demands of Him. I view it as informing my enemy what God says and how I have more authority over him (my enemy). Also, I'm informing myself what God says. . .ya know. . ."faith comes by hearing". Even if it has to come from my own lips for my ears to hear then I will do it. David commanded his soul to praise the Lord. . .so what is wrong with doing what didaskalos says here?http://www.christianforums.com/t17159&page=37 Post #366

    God is not required to wait. . . but if we never learned HOW to "fight the good fight" spiritually, physically, and emotionally, we would never "finish the race".
  12. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    That's correct, and the pharisees could also read the Word, however Jesus "heard" the spiritually discerned in the Word. Jesus was fond of saying "If any man has ears, let him hear" and Jesus also said, "Take heed what you hear: with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given."

    If the crowd was listening to Jesus, obviously they would be hearing with their physical ears, but we have other ears to hear with. After all, why would Jesus tell a crowd who was listening, "If anybody can hear, let him hear", when they were indeed hearing Him? They were hearing with their natural ears.

    In your quotation, "But faith cometh by hearing, and hearing, by the word of God", the word 'hearing' is the greek word rhema. It is the same word Jesus used in His response to Satan when He was tempted by hunger. Jesus said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." That word there is also the word rhema. You can say it like this, "...by every 'rhema' out of the mouth of God." The word logos is the written Word, whereas the word rhema means the spoken Word of God. The spoken Word of God is called revelation, it's when the Holy Spirit tells you the hidden meaning of the "logos". When you "hear" that revelation, faith comes with it.

    Why wouldn't it? If God flat out told me something, I would know that I can take it to the bank!!!

    Ok, we can agree to disagree...but how come DEUT 28 warns to take heed to His voice lest these curses overtake you... In that chapter, every sickness there is, is listed under the curse.
    I know that Jesus has redeemed us from the curse, being made a curse for us...because it is written "cursed is he that hangs on a tree..."
    So, if Jesus has delivered us from the curse, then why do some people like to think that God uses sickness to chastise His people? To me, that's like slapping Jesus upside His face...No, I don't think God puts curses on His people to teach him or her something...that runs counter to the work Jesus did on the Cross...AND is contradictory to Deut 28, where He talks about the blessing and the curse.

    Yes, but was Jesus still operating under the Abrahamic Covenant? Remember, Peter, as well as Jesus, were heirs of Abraham...Jesus had listened to His Father (God) when He was growing up as a little Jewish boy. Jesus knew the promises and commands God had given the Jews, as heirs of Abraham. They were drilled into His mind and the Father spoke the revelation of the word into His heart. That is where His knowledge and faith came from. Remember, He said, "I only say and do what my Father has shown and told me?" Besides, if Peter had known, he could have done it anyway, if he was trusting the Lord on that promise.
    Go look at Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I [will be] with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

    Right there, there is two promises of protection to the seed (heirs) of Abraham! Protection from fire, remember Shadrach, Menshach and Abednego? Yeah...And you saw the other one where the water shall not overflow thee? To me, walking on the water seems to be the perfect way to do that...:)

    I said all of that to say this, Without faith it is impossible to please God and you can't even get faith unless you hear the Word from God. Do you want to know how God said we could get the revelation of His word? Read Joshua chapter 1 and note the directions God gives Joshua concerning His word...it is for us today...

  13. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    It just seems odd that when we look at things God has given us like salvation, it's so simple to accept. When then, would something like healing be so incredibly difficult? You haven't said whether you've been sick or not since you've become a Christian, but I'm willing to bet you have.
    The disciples and early church were so close to Christ, you think they'd have a better understanding of how we should be healed. Expecially if Christ gave them the power to heal others!

    Again, this passage leads us to Matthew 8:16 where it says Christ healed to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah. In other words, to show He was the Messiah. It's important to note this was done before Christ's death on the cross, because Christ died for our sins. If sickness is not a sin, Christ didn't die for it.
    Now we can say that sickness is a result of sin, but then we can look in the Bible and see that even God used afflictions. Therefore, sin is what's in question, and not the sickness. While we can be forgiven of the sin, the sickness may stick around for whatever reason unknown.
    Now, if sickness IS sin, then Christ died for it. But if it is sin, I have yet to see any solid biblical arguement stating it is.
    But the big question I ask is this. If we look in 1 Peter 2:24 where it says Christ died for our sins, and then read on to verse 25, it says before we were healed, we had gone astray. Now, if physical sickness is in mention here as well, and someone who prays for healing is not healed, doesn't that mean they are still "astray?" After all, it's covered in the sins that were paid for in the verse before. And therefore, if someone dies in their sickness, doesn't that mean they die in their sins and are destined for hell?

    Here's what I do know. God refers to Job as blameless before anything happens to him. In fact, God even tells satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" Some versions even use the word "perfect" instead of "blameless." And even if we stick with "blameless," we see the word alongside other words in the bible like "holy" "spotless" and "pure." And again, God sees Job in this way before anything is done to him, and yet God still allows satan to test Job. Which leads me to another point. God had to allow satan to test Job. Which sins are we commiting that allow satan more control over us than God?
    So do I believe Job was sinless? The Bible implies it. I'm going to stick with God though and say he was blameless and perfect though.

    More than we can imagine. Through Christ's death on the cross, salvation is offered for all that accept it. The very moment they accept it, they are saved. What's strange though, is with sickness, (assuming Christ died so we can all be physically healed) is that the moment we accept our healing from Christ, we're still not always healed. More often than not, it takes days, weeks, or whatever time it normally takes for sickness to leave.
    Salvation = Instantanious.
    Sickness = Rarely Instantanious.

    I mainly use it because it's what I've learned from Faith teachers like Kenneth Hagin and Charles Capps. As some call, fathers of the "Name it Claim it" gospel. I'll try to use other words if you wish.

    I kind of covered this above, but I'll state it again just because I'm bored. (I'm at work for the seventh day in a row.)
    Salvation is offered as a free gift to all that accept it. We still have to accept it though, and when we do, we're instantaniously saved. Sickness however, if covered by Christ's death, should come instantaniously as well. But you're right, if sickness is covered through Christ's attoning work on the cross, it should come instantaniously. Why? Because accepting Christ's gift would include physical healing. Why would sickness be the only "gift" we repiditively have to "accept?"
    Do we have to repeat the sinner's prayer every single time we sin?
  14. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    By comparing Galatians 3:13 with Deuteronomy 21:23, "He who is hanged (on a tree) is accursed of God," and Deuteronomy 28:15-68, which details the curses that would come upon Israel for disobedience (including various diseases) the argument is drawn that Christ bore our diseases on the cross. However, the analogy does not follow. There is no basis to identify the "curse of the law" with the curses of Deuteronomy 28. The "curse of the law" is directly related to the issue of justification, which is easily discovered by studying Galatians 3 in context.
    For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for 'The righteous man shall live by faith.' However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, 'He who practices them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.' Galatians 3:10–13.
    One can immediately discern that the curse being referred to is the curse of damnation due to Jew and Gentile for their failure to keep the Law of God. The curses in Deuteronomy 28 on the other hand, were temporal curses that would be extended to the Jews under Jehovah’s Theocratic Kingdom in the land of Israel if they were disobedient. The absurdity of saying that Jesus bore these curses on the cross become apparent when we consider the nature of some of the curses (mildew- verse 22, drought- verse 23, the violation of one’s wife by another man- verse 30, cannibalism- verse 53, etc.)
  15. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    Actually, you are very close in understanding the chain of events that transpired on Crucifixion day. For instance, Jesus received His stripes when He was tied to a whipping post. Isaiah says, looking into the future, "by His stripes we are healed". If you want to deny that Jesus did not carry our sicknesses on His stripes to the moment of death on the Cross, then that would be your choice.
    • 1...Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
    • 2...2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
    • 3...2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    The Message translation puts it this way, vs.7 "...The Government of Death, its constitution chiseled on stone tablets..."
    and in vs.9 "... the Government of Condemnation was impressive..."

    So, the Law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law, as evidenced by the above references. Plain and simple, as you quoted, "'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them. Jesus was made cursed for us, so we could be blessed in Him as joint-heirs (with Abraham's inheritance). Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
    Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Of course the blasting of mildew, your wife getting violated, and you being forced to eat your young is in the curse. God told us that if you don't heed His "commandments and His statutes", (another translations says it this way,'commandments and guidelines'), then these things will come upon you. Sickness included.

    Here is another sacred cow. God DOES NOT put poverty on you. Your disobedience will open the door for Satan to steal your health, goods, social standing and joy. Satan is the one who desires to sift you, keep in mind, God will not let Satan do to you more than you can handle.

    If you find yourself broke, penniless and out of a place to stay, then you could have done something about it. Or did God forget His promise to restrict Satan from doing more to you than you can handle? God will let Satan do these things, not because He is teaching you a lesson, but because of your lack of knowledge. Your lack of knowledge is what prevents Him from helping you. If you were standing on a promise of God, in faith, then God could do something. But not unless you are exercising your faith...If you are in confusion about a promise of God, then how can you walk in faith?

    Look at what really happened to Peter's faith when he walked on the water. Mat 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
    Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
    Notice Jesus said that Peter had a "little" faith, Jesus also asked Peter where did he doubt? The idea that Peter sank because he took his eyes off Jesus is a religious con. You can go ahead and believe that if you want, but that is not faith. The problem was Peter let fear creep in and it contaminated his faith.
    I've heard someone say "Fear tolerated is faith contaminated" and I think that is very true. AT least in my experience.

    When I first got saved, I adopted alot of the church's doctrines, without studying them and without the revelation of the Holy Spirit given to me. This is ok for the developing babe in Jesus, but there comes a time when you should be grown up and teaching from experience, the same things Jesus did and teach.

    In the process of developing in Jesus, I found that some of the church doctrine wasn't right on the money. Some of it was really off base and some of it was intellectually sound but void of the Spirit. By that, I mean, without Spiritual ears to hear with, you would completely miss the hidden revelation in it.

    I got saved in the summer of 1973 and even now, I still have a lot to learn from the Scriptures. God is still correcting me on some of the things I thought I had right, but I had to learn to be quick to accept the correction and consequently, my prayers are not as hindered as before. I had accepted God's changing my scriptural knowledge in order that I could be a more effective witness or proof that God does hear and answer prayer.

    This is why it is so important to pray in agreement with God's will, and you should be able to ascertain just what His will is on any matter, by looking at the examples and guidelines He put in the Scriptures. If you have an misunderstanding, then His Word will not work for you, period...

    So, it's up to you, really, how much God is able to manifest Himself in your life. You can see how the blessing of God was on Abraham...as his heirs, the same blessing should be so apparent and heavily on each of us that the unsaved will whisper to each other and say, "He has God's Hand on him...", Now that's an awesome witness, would you think?

    I leave you with this verse;
    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
    Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
    Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
    Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
    Heb 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
    Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
    Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but
    followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    The "Message Translation" says it like this, "Heb 6:12 Don't drag your feet. Be like those who stay the course with committed faith and then get everything promised to them!"
  16. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    So then if all these things were part of the law, and Jesus freed us from the law, is mildew sin?
    I'm sorry, but the Deut. passage in question is not part of the law that Jesus freed us from. For it to be, we have to stretch this passage way out of context.

    So Christians can't handle being poor? Many things beyond our control can happen in life that can cause us to become poor. Contrary to popular belief, poor people are not all bad and balancing their checkbooks and full of credit card debt. In fact, in one study, they found the majority of homeless people are mentally ill and unable to hold down jobs or do many basic tasks. I refuse the idea that it's their own sin that got them where they are.

    But if what you say is true, I just feel really bad for all of those Christians in poverty who could simply be rich if they only knew. Maybe we should hire some helicoptors to drop flyers or something.

    And for all of those Christian martyrs back in the early church. The Christians who weren't martyred but had to live in the catacombs. If only they would've had enough faith - the might of the Roman empire couldn't have touched them. All of the Christians in the dark ages who died by the black plague. All of the Christians who were killed in Nazi Germany trying to save the Jewish people. Poor Billy Graham could be free of Parkinson's disease... if only he knew, and had enough faith. CS Lewis' wife didn't need to die. How come Paul Crouch needs glasses? If he only knew perfect vision was his for the asking.

    Heck, none of us need to be sick or die if what you're saying is correct.

    Sadly, it's not true. This teaching is flawed to its core. It demands that God's will be sub-serviant to our's because it teaches that whatever we ask and speak for in faith God WILL grant us. This is ridiculous. It's Biblically ridiculous and logically ridiculous as well. What if people are asking for conflicting things? The important thing is scripture, however - what the Bible says about God and WHO God is. God is sovereign - and his will does not bow to ours. The persecution of the early church was horrible, but it is because the early church was persecuted that Christianity spread across the globe and didn't stay localized in Judea. Billy Graham and CS Lewis are two of the most amazing Christian men of our time. According to Word of Faith theology Graham could be healed if he would just PRAY RIGHT. How foolish is this - he needs to pray right; say the right words. It's a formula. God wants to heal Billy, but Billy isn't praying for healing in the right way so God can't do it. Or won't do it. Apparently Billy isn't the man of God that we all thought he was.

    Cassie Bernall stood in the face of a gun and said "Yes, I believe in God." And she was shot. "Yes, I believe in God"... that's just about the most blatant statement of faith that I've heard. If only she would've spoken the RIGHT words of faith, according to Word of Faith theology, she wouldn't have been killed. Too bad for her. And it's too bad that God, even though she was so brave and courageous in taking a stand for Him, let her die anyway because of her lack of proper prayer.

    Apparently Justin Martyr didn't have the right kind of faith. Stephen in Acts... he could've escaped the stoning. If only he would've spoken words of faith.

    This is so off-base. Faith is not a formula. Faith does not rely on speaking the right words, and it is not counteracted when we speak the wrong words. Billy has a stronger faith in God than I will ever have, I imagine. He's prayed to be healed, but God has not healed him. Paul the Apostle prayed to have the thorn in his flesh removed, but God did not remove it. Both were men of faith. God heard their prayers. If it would've been up to the men, they would've been healed. But God's will was different, and he did not heal Billy nor did he remove the thorn in Pauls flesh. He did not heal CS Lewis' wife. Because he is sovereign. He does not bow to our will. We can pray til the cows come home in faith, speak all of the right words, but if it is not God's will then ultimately the answer to our prayers will be "no."
  17. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    Found some stuff online. Interesting tidbits about some of the preachers of this kind of teaching. If what they teach is true, then how come...

    1. John Osteen, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived.

    2. John Osteen himself passed away a little over a year ago due to several medical conditions. His church "confessed" his healing and he himself had stated that God told him he would be preaching in the pulpit in his 90's. Osteen died in his 70's.

    3. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. She wrote a book on her ordeal, just surf Betty Price at http://www.amazon.com. I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.

    4. T. L. Osborn's wife, Daisy Osborn, died of cancer a few years back. Yet T. L is supposed to have a miracle ministry overseas, yet there was no supernatural healing for his wife.

    5. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. Jamie's too was under a medical doctors care.

    6. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated. I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.

    7. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.

    8. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

    9. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor). Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.

    10. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.

    I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).

    11. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS. He spoke at a Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

    12. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet.

    13. Buddy Harrison, Kenneth E. Hagin's son-in-law, died of cancer Dec. 1999. Dad Hagin's "special healing anointing" (read I Believe In Visions by Hagin) could not help his own family member.

    These people teach that it is God’s will to heal His children every time they come to Him in "faith." They also teach that we can "have what we say." Yet when they get sick what do they do? They go to the doctor just like the rest of us. None of the above received a "divine healing" or a "miracle" by the Biblical standard. In fact, several of these fine "Christians" berate other people who get sick and say it is due to their "lack of faith." However, when they or their family members get sick it is always an "attack of the devil," trying to stop their important Kingdom work.

    The fact is Kenneth Hagin Sr. and Junior both wear glasses, as does Oral Roberts, Marilyn Hickey, Charles Capps, and Joyce Meyers (to name a few).

    NONE of the Pentecostal/Charismatic teachers of divine healing/health/life have ever lived to be 120 years old either. The fact is their eyesight fails with age, like everyone else’s, but this does not stop them from preaching their false doctrines regarding healing.

    Katherine Khulman - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from heart disease in Ann Arbor Michigan.
    A.A. Allen - an acknowledged divine healer and exorcist DIED from alcohol & drug abuse.
    Aimee Semple McPherson - an acknowledge divine healer - died of a barbiturate overdose.
    Jack Coe - an acknowledged divine healer DIED from disease.
  18. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    usadingo, what in the world does this have to do with what God said in His Word?!? Just because we are imperfect doesn't mean God is a liar. You seem to be making God out to be a liar. I've shown you what God said and you have rejected that. It's your choice, not to walk in faith, I guess...

    I think you got frustrated at the scriptural insights I was giving you, you must hate being corrected and having your ignorance exposed. That's not my fault, obviously you don't respect your elders. This speaks of a root of bitterness in your heart. I would advise you to seek the Lord's face about it and ask Him to show you how to get rid of it. I can tell you from my experience, that it will eventually stop your prayers, if it hasn't already...

    Also, I can see the spirit of gloating in you. Why else would you stake your reputation on "hearsay"? It might be true, but it is still "hearsay". Have you bothered to check what God said about gossip? You sound positively jubliant of the bad reports you have taken into your heart. I'm sorry you couldn't be edified or even see what I was talking about, but, that's your choice. Welcome to the human world...

    Oh BTW, most of those people you mentioned, are not "WOF", not only that, Jesus still used them to bring healing and salvation to the people who needed it. Regardless of your attacks, God was glorified by the many people who got healed and saved...However, I would do something about your penchant for taking hearsay as the Gospel...:sick:

    So long and blessings... :(
  19. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    United States
    Dear friend,
    If every saint, preacher, prophet, and apostle died of cancer... God is still true. Every man is a liar. What is faith other than believing what appears on every surface to be false? You do not need faith to believe what appears obvious.

    Many of those people died with the Word of God on their lips, praising Him for their healing. Who is faithful? The one who believes God in the face of all contradictory evidence, or the one who denies God whenever the physical flies contray. Who will receive the "well done my faithful servant"? The one whose confession was true till the end, or the one who caved at the first sign of contradictory circumstances?

    Do not walk by sight. Join with us in saying that God is good, and His mercy endures forever!
  20. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    Whoops, I didn't see this earlier post...

    Shows how much you know...

    No, it's called lack of knowledge...HOS 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...

    Yes, it really is a shame, if only people like you would stop whining and start supporting the Gospel with your tithes and offerings...then we would have the best tools money could buy and we could get the job done...

    Kenneth Copeland Ministeries and their partners have given over 20 million dollars to an African outreach where over 6 million souls got saved last year. KCM and their partners are credited with over 62 million souls saved in the last 38 years.

    What have you done?

    None of us don't have to be sick and what's wrong with just living a full life and then leaving your body in good health and going home?

    I totally agree with you...

    Really? Where does the Scriptures actually say that?

    Wrong, try praying in God's will and remember, 2COR 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. :clap:

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