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Word Faith/Positive Confession

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Susan, Aug 31, 2002.

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Maybe

  4. I need to know more

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  1. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

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    Could we begin a flame-free discussion of WordFaith teachings? :) 

    I would like to ask some questions. :)

    1: Where is the soverignty of God in Word Faith teaching?

    2: Why does Word Faith always work around to stating in some way or another that the sick choose sickness?

    3: What about the poor? What is our obligation to them according to Faith teaching?

    4: Is disregarding symptoms to claim one's healing considered a sign of holiness or goodness in Word Faith?

    5: Why does anyone die, if Word Faith teachings are true?

    6: Do you believe that objective reality is a tool of Satan?

    7: Is it common practice in Word Faith circles to do things like not wear glasses, not buy insurance for anything, and not even take crime prevention or fire safety precautions?

    8: Is it deemed OK in Word Faith to "curse" percieved human enemies?

    These are some things I have heard and seen talked about by Word Faith members and critics alike. Could we discuss them? :)

     

     

     
     
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  2. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

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    :confused: Would anyone like to comment?
     
  3. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    Susan......
    This is an excellent question. I have had leukemia and am still disabled from a bad bone marrow transplant. All the things you have mentioned have been on my mind. There is a degree for everything - a time and a purpose - and God will let you know where it is as you seek Him with all your heart, mind, and strength. If you don't, then you can expect less power in your life. This is a fact, but it is so highly personal. I would encourage you to seek all that God would have for you in Christ the anointed one and power of God. In Him, there is much to be realized in protection and healing. I would never make fun of those things even though I've witnessed much that is questionable. This doesn't mean that God is not quietly powerful in an individuals life. We see so much on TV that is kinda weird and there is this name it, claim it, frame it, thing that has been around for a long time........there is truth in it all, but do you think God's provision is for a Mercedes Benz or maybe just transportation so you can get to work? There is many kinds of healing, and mine will come in God's time. He knows best and He knows me and my situation. Stay close to Him and see if it isn't good..........
     
  4. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    That would be nice... I have yet to see one.
    One problem is that all faith people do not believe alike. Unlike some "movements", faith has not really congealed into an organization that has a specific "statement of faith". Most faith people belong to your local church on the corner and for all intent purposes blend in perfectly with those who have never heard of the "faith movement". Because of this, every tom dick and harry has a Ad hominem horror story they heard second or third hand.

    Most of the time WOF is associated with a number of faith movement teachers or leaders such as E.W. Kenyon, Ken Hagin, Ken Copeland, Fred Price, Charles Capps, and others. A discussion of the movement is difficult because I find we almost always end up answering some quip about what some teacher said rather than the scriptural basis of the teachings.

    I consider myself to be a part of the faith movement, and have been a part for over 25 years. I have taught it in church(es), Bible studies, and on the internet. But I doubt any of the faith teachers listed above would agree with all my teachings, for I also believe in things like a post trib resurrection, eternal security, and some aspects of the prophetic movement. I believe teachings, not because some teacher presents them, but because after 32 years of study I have found them to be true.

    The vast majority of anti-faith people take their argument from two sources:
    Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff, or;
    A Different Gospel by D.R. McConnell.

    There are a multitude of speakers and websites devoted to the criticism of the faith movement, but the majority of their objections are just rehashed arguments from these two books. Many of the arguments I hear are in fact just word for word quotes from these books using the same wording and phraseology. I find that those who do this (most of the time) really do not know the subject at hand, and are at a loss when they are actually confronted with an informed answer. (I recently responded to one such person who brought up one of these arguments. I produced half a dozen posts, over 700 scriptural proofs, many quotes from the Greek text, many quotes from references books, and examples from the scriptures. Yet the individual refused to accept it. He just continues to blindly quote the worn out arguments that originated from these two books). So while I believe and teach WOF based on what I have found in the scriptures, I find the critics are just rehearsing the arguments of these anti-faith teachers without actually studying the topic for themselves and finding the truth from scripture. This makes it very difficult to maintain the kind of meaningful discussion you desire.
    For instance, I recently started a thread where I was going to present a large amount of material that would prove that God wants us all to prophesy, that we can learn how to prophesy, and that we can find our spiritual gift and learn how to manifest it. But before I could even begin, a half dozen or so people effectively shut down the discussion with rude, unkind comments. One person even posted a URL to gif image of a duck (inferring I was a quack). Others said the concept made them sick. How are we supposed to get past this sort of childish behavior? It is very hard for any teacher to present material when there are children giggling and making faces in the crowd! A friend wrote me in disgust over their behavior and remarked how sad it was that there is so little respect for teachers and elders. I am 48, and have been a called teacher for over 30 years. I was teaching about faith, prophesying, and spiritual gifts before most of the above-mentioned people were born. Yet they would not even take the time and exercise the courtesy to listen to what I had to say. While I am not angry over such events, I, like my friend, am saddened and grieved.
    So, yes, I would love to engage in a flameless discussion with informed adults who actually know what they are talking about and are not just quoting something they read or heard third hand. I just cannot find many who are disposed to do so and who have these qualifications.
     
  5. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Could we begin a flame-free discussion of Word Faith teachings?

    I would like to ask some questions.

    1: Where is the sovereignty of God in Word Faith teaching?
    The sovereignty of God is tied up smack dab in the middle of the Gospel. His dealings, His will, and our relationship with Him begin and are completed in the Gospel. Jesus did it all. We simply hop on board His work. We cannot add to it by suffering, being sick, being impoverished, or by dying. Everything He wants to teach us is accomplished by the methods and means He has set up in the Gospel. He does not deal with us outside that Gospel. The Gospel does not contain any sickness, poverty or death. The methods and means that many present such as sickness to teach and poverty to grow are outside the Gospel. His sovereign will is defined in the words and work of Jesus via the Gospel. That is the sovereignty of God manifest.
    So why do some question that the WOF denies God His sovereignty?
    We just take Him at His word. If He said He would heal us or give us anything we ask and believe for, then we take His word at it.
    The question I have for those who might refute this, and say that we are "overstepping the sovereignty of God" and "Ordering God around". Are you ordering God around when you call on the name of the Lord and expect to be saved? Can God change His mind and decide not to do what He said and not save you? If you say no, then are you denying God His sovereignty? The same if true concerning all the promises and elements of the Word.
    The question, when framed in a common nonbeliever's query, might ask:
    Is God so sovereign that He can break a promise and go against His own word?
    The answer is no.



    2: Why does Word Faith always work around to stating in some way or another that the sick choose sickness?
    I don't do this. I have not seen this. But I can understand the logic. It seems that some would rather see God as somehow involved in or even causing their sickness and poverty than to think He is not involved with them at all. To be faithful, one would simply stand on the word and thank God they are healed regardless of the symptoms and outward circumstances. I have also heard some say that they would rather be sick and even die than to change their mind and admit they were wrong. This is a hard thing for most people to do. Once they make a stand against healing or poverty, it is very difficult to go back on it. They would just rather (I suppose we could say "choose") to be sick than to glorify God and declare that Jesus has done it all.


    3: What about the poor? What is our obligation to them according to Faith teaching?
    I am not sure what you are asking. Should we give to the poor? Yes. I cannot speak for all, but a certain percent of what I earn goes to the poor every paycheck. This question should also be directed at all Christians and not just the Faith movement. As a proponent of Home Churches, I would direct the question back at the critics of the faith movement and wonder how they can justify building their 6 and 7 figure sanctuaries within sight of the pool and homeless. Don't get me wrong, I am not against people keeping their heads dry on Sunday mornings... but at the same time, lets not be hypocrites and point fingers at WOF people while hundreds of millions of church dollars are spent on the "principle of the Sunday morning dry head."


    4: Is disregarding symptoms to claim one's healing considered a sign of holiness or goodness in Word Faith?
    I do not "disregard" symptoms. I simple chose to believe (in my heart) that the Word is true. I chose to walk by faith and not by sight. I chose to let God be true and every man a liar. If I were to get sick, I would thank God that I am healed according to His word, rebuke the lies that contradict the Word, and if needed, go to the doctor to get relief until the symptoms subside. This is what I would do if I got sick. Reality is, I can count on one hand the number of times I have been to the doctor over the past 30 years. I have been to the emergency room only once to receive treatment for injuries while saving someone from a burning building. I have not spent one night in a hospital in 34 years. I am not obsessed with health and the topic actually occupies very little of my study and prayer life. The only reason I know much about it at all is because some people are obsessed with refuting it and trying to talk others out of it. I want to see people walk in the same health that I have. It is a blessing that we can all have. It has been bought and paid for, and there is no reason not to take it.


    5: Why does anyone die, if Word Faith teachings are true?
    People die because we have been appointed 70 years on the face of the earth. We can have more if we are not satisfied with the 70. In this day and age, the average life expectancy now exceeds that age. But we can expect 70 and no less. If we live right physically and morally, we can achieve old age and do it healthy. We will eventually die, (unless the Lord returns before hand) but we do not have to die young nor do we have to die old and sick. I expect to die at a ripe old age, not of sickness or disease... but by just not waking up one morning. I will wake up... but not in this world!! I think you are misreading the WOF teachings, or are just listening to someone else's interpretation of them. I do not know anyone who teaches that we will not grow old and pass away. We do teach that we will grow old and pass without sickness.

    6: Do you believe that objective reality is a tool of Satan?
    Sorry. You lost me there. Are you talking about walking by sight? If so, it is only a tool of satan if it contradicts what God said. God said we are healed. If we confess our sins and are righteous and in fellowship with God, then sickness should not be on us. It is a lie of the devil and we can rebuke it and stand on the truth of the word of God.

    7: Is it common practice in Word Faith circles to do things like not wear glasses, not buy insurance for anything, and not even take crime prevention or fire safety precautions?
    I do not advocate these things. I buy insurance because it is one way I can be sure my family is taken care of. I do not take crime prevention because if a bad guy wants to get to you, a lock will not stop Him. I do lock doors and windows because that is common sense. I do not know anyone personally who does the things you mention. When a family member is sick I take them to the doctor because that is one way that God deals with sickness. Sometimes people do not have enough faith to receive healing outright, but they will have enough faith to be healed with the help of a doctor or medical procedure.


    8: Is it deemed OK in Word Faith to "curse" perceived human enemies?
    This is new one. I guess someone thinks Hagin and Copeland were on the grassy knolls in Dallas on Nov 23 1962. I am sorry Suzy, it is just that some of these things are so silly that I feel weird even addressing them. But I am glad you bring them up because some people actually believe them.
    The word says to bless and curse not. I would no more curse someone than punch them in the nose.
     
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Very well answered Hobie, truly a teacher from the Lord seasoned with salt. ;)
     
  7. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    Thought to add something interesting from anonymous. There may be some truth to glean from observing the order of the gifts and their administration:

    Paul enumerates the gifts of the Spirit in a specific order: Word of wisedom is first followed by the word of knowledge, faith, and then the gifts of healing (1 Cor. 12:8, 9). This order must be maintained. Wisedom is needed in the matter of healing. Is it God's will that this person be healed? God's will must be discerned if His healing power is to be enlisted.

    Jesus, as the personification of wisedom, knew that each person He healed should be healed. But our view of a sick person is limited by human understanding. We must exercise faith in and dependence upon God that He will do what is the sick person's ultimate good. Our prayers must not be in the form of commands that demand healing from God. Rather, we should request that the Lord accomplish His will and that He give us faith to accept His purpose in physical illness.

    Jesus healed everyone He wished to heal, and He did not attempt to heal all the sick people he came into contact with. An example of this is His visit to the pool of Bethesda. A great multitude of blind, lame, and diseased people were there. All of them needed to be healed, yet Jesus healed only one, a man who had been paralyzed for thirty-eight years. Why? Jesus, in His divine wisedom, knew that this one should be healed. The sick are in God's hands. It is God who, unique in His absolute wisedom and power, decides who will be healed and who will remain sick.

    The second gift to be exercised in the healing process is knowledge, gnoosis. What is this knowledge? It's what God has permitted us to learn about the functions of our body and those laws God imself has instituted for the maintenance and restoration of health. When an artery is cut and the blood gushes out, "the word of knowledge," the intelligence of knowledge, tells us to use whatever medical means are available to stop the hemorrhage. That will lead to healing, meaning the result of the process - iama in Greek.

    But wisedom and knowledge are not enough. They may be applied without resulting in healing. There must be faith, dependence on God to bring about the desired and worked-for result. Therefore, one to whom God's Spirit grants a gift of healing must also have the gifts of wisedom, knowledge, and the faith which is dependent on divine providence. 
     
  8. josiahdefender

    josiahdefender New Member

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    The extremes of any teaching always lead to error.

    For the consideration of some here I will answer in a brief statement or two.
    Ive been around faith movement folks for some time. I do adhere to some basic tenets of the faith movement but only because of the overlap of biblical teachings concerning faith and its operation.
    A great many folks attempted to practise faith movement doctrines and the
    scriptures that it quotes.
    A great many folks became disappointed with the faith movement or the teachers themselves or even God himself.
    A great many folks also still adhere to its basic doctrines and teachers,
    practising as they feel required of by God or their consciences after they learned such teachings.

    It has been my observation to note that SOME folks who had a falling out with the faith movement because they practised such with one hand slackly. They didnt attach themselves closely to Christ or his will for their lives but simply attempted to apply their doctrines as FORMULAS for success. This type of living ALWAYS fails no matter how sound the doctrine may be. They also didnt look deeply into relationship or character issues required by Christ to undertake greater responsibilities which come with "faith" as one matures.
    Example: Some folks felt that they would by faith give more monies to ministries, they gave, and believed in a formula manner. When they didnt received the 100 fold return as they thought they were discouraged. They didnt seek to know Gods will concerning their giving or how to handle their finances therefore they stepped out of Gods will, quoted scripture texts, believing God bound to up hold his word and then found that God is not
    even going to answer formula christianity even when it has their money time and prayers at work. WHY? simply because Christ is not a means to an end! Jesus will be Lord and we are not required to or asked to circumvent his will by "faithing" our will into his and then making demands upon him. This is a common mistake (by my observation) and a reason for the complaints of some.
    Some have found that the teachings of the faith teachers to be at foundation level in error. Example: the born again Jesus. The Jesus who suffered in hell to pay for our sins. Commanding God in prayer.
    Let u suffice to say not all faith teachers say the exact same things.
    Some it seems merely parrot others who are in authority over them.
    Some it appears seek to find new ways of saying old things and thereby add a dynamic of "new revelation" to their teachings.

    The real issue with most folks is "does faith work like they say"? and "are those guys credible"?.

    The answer to the first is really easy. FAITH WORKS IN US BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN US. You cannot merely duplicate confessions, prayers, theologies in ANY AREA OF BIBLICAL TEACHING and get the same results.
    Christ deals with us INDIVIDUALLY. we are not going to grow by wearing another mans size 12's we must grow into our own size and live according as Christ so gifts and enables us. I would first recommend not a throwing away of "faith" or any teacher per-se but I would recommend not thinking that God is going to put a "mantle of faith" upon you which you yourself have not grown into. REALITY is relationship when it comes to faith in Christ. If you do not have a relationship with Christ that takes you deeper into himself you CANNOT have the reality of a greater FAITH that obtains things that you currently dont have.

    Secondly the men who teach faith and their doctrines. I have my own
    understanding of who they are and what they are, and for the sake of not undermining the faith of someone elses I will say only this.
    As spiritual men "bathwater' is meant to be thrown away, but the baby is not and must be kept. Let us keep what is said that aligns properly with Gods word, the rest may be discarded as error.
    BUT REMEMBER. you dont know everything, you dont understand everything, and for you to label everyone who disagrees with you as a heretic, or false teacher is just as immature and childish as it is to RECIEVE from your friends WITHOUT question all they say and not to check them to see if they are speaking the truth.
    The issue is this and ALWAYS THIS. Jesus Christ not only has truth but IS TRUTH. Truth is a person not the formulation of a doctrine. When you realize that Christ is more than you know and you seek to grow into him, you attain MORE OF CHRIST not more of words, or doctrines or ideologies.
    Josiahdefender
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    josiahdefender,

    thanks for your post. it was very insightful -- and fair. i esp liked what you said here:

    "If you do not have a relationship with Christ that takes you deeper into himself you CANNOT have the reality of a greater FAITH that obtains things that you currently dont have." and couldnt agree more. its sort of a confirmation for me.
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    to get a good synopsis of what the movement leaders beleive, read one of their books, then read counterfit christianity or christanity in crisis by hank hanagraff. I'd recommend the 2nd one.
     
  11. Sharky

    Sharky Rockin dude!

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    unfamiliar with this stuff for the moment. maybe ill look into it later. MAn sooo tired. can barely think :)
     
  12. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

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    Thanks everyone for your posts. I am sorry that I cannot contribute more, but I am a little sarcastic sometimes, and I do not want to get myself banned
     
  13. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

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    Why do WOF answers always seem so smug and self-agrandizing?

    And what about babies who die in their first days of life? Did they commit some infraction of "right moral and physical living"?

    Aren't you, by saying that everyone, through "right living" lives to be 70? Where did you get this idea from? Why 70?

    Is it a number you pulled out of the air, or is that absolute assurance from God's own mouth? Let's see chapter and verse.
     
  14. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Exactly the point I made in post #4 Louis. This is where many people get the erroneous concepts about the faith movement. Anyone can give their "twist" on what someone else says, and it is even easier to just quote someone who is doing the twisting.
    The vast majority of people who read the faith leaders do not come away with the conclusions that Hanegrraff and McConnell come to. It is only after they read CIC and the twisted interpretations that these "heresies" suddenly appear.
    I might suggest "E.W. Kenyon The True Story" for a more even handed treatment of the subject.
    Thanks
     
  15. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. Confidence and assurance is often taken as arrogance by someone who has their mind set on refuting a thing. So your observatoin works both ways Lambslove. Why do those who dislike WOF always seem so self absorbed and touchy feeling? Not a nice thing to say, but I hope it makes my point.

    No... sometimes things just happen. No rhyme nor reason. No script or grand plan. Just nature.

    Psalms 90:10
    (ASV) The days of our years are threescore years and ten, Or even by reason of strength fourscore years; Yet is their pride but labor and sorrow; For it is soon gone, and we fly away.

    Thanks Lambslove. I hope we can come to see eye to eye on something. We are really not as bad people as you might think...
     
  16. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    You are great suzie. :hug: I hope you never get banned! :cry:

    As I told Lewis and the others. We are really not the bad mean people that we are made out to be. It is a little frustrating when we come to the forums and someone is just quoting the critics and saying things that are absolutely false about us. We just want to see people to see the goodness of God, and to get all the good things that He has provided for us. Somehow this gets twisted around and made to look like we are some evil thing. I am not saying you have done this... but I think your questions were the result of hearing these sorts of things.

    But I think you are a good person, and I am giving you some blessings!!!! :D
     
  17. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

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    Interesting. So, "just nature" can happen to babies, but not adults? At what age do people become impervious to "nature"?



    Well, that's not a promise, just a statement of fact. Not too many humans back then lived too much longer than 70 years, huh? And, those are not God's words, those are David's. He's lamenting that life is so short, not claiming some promise that he will live at least that long.

    Scientists say the human body is designed to last 120 years. The Bible says, "And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." Genesis 6:3. Words out of God's own mouth.

    I don't think you are a bad person, just woefully astray, and trying to take others astray with you.
     
  18. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Happens to everyone, age does not matter. But a believer can walk in fellowship with God and remain healthy.

    That is one thing that makes the faith movement different from others. It accepts those statements of facts and knows that they apply to those who believe.

    I really don't know what you think I am doing wrong Lambslove. I do not feel astray. I feel and believe as close to God as I ever have. Everything and everyone around me in my life seems to be very well blessed spiritually, physically, and mentally. I have no enemies, and I feel myself to be mentally and emotionally balanced and in touch with reality. Spiritually I feel myself to me as strong as I have ever been. I feel I am well grounded in faith, the word, and in good works. I do my best to walk in the spirit and be a blessing to those around me. Many people who know me well say I am in fact a blessing and even a mentor to them. I love Jesus, and I know He loves me. My health is very good. If you have read my testimony elsewhere, you will know I have never spent a single day in the hospital in over 32 years and I can count on one hand the number of times since 1970 I have had to go to a doctor. The Lord has blessed me with a degree of intelligence, in that I have an IQ of 156 math, 152 verbal (and that I attribute to be a direct result of a systematic study of the Bible). I graduated summa cum laude with a degree in Computer Technology majoring in Computer Programming. I am a successful Systems Analyst with a State College in South Carolina. I have been a believer for 32 years now, have been faithfully married to the same woman for 28 of those years. My kids have all grown up and after some normal bumpy roads, have all become successful. Please believe me when I say I am not bragging or trying to be proud in saying any of this! I simply cannot imagine what you mean when you say I am somehow astray? Can you articulate exactly what you think I (not the faith movement, me) am doing/believing that is so wrong that would cause you to consider me “woefully astray"? I am not baiting you or trying to pick an argument. I am just baffled at the remark and am wondering if you see something that I and those around me do not see.
    And this invitation is open to anyone else who feels I am somehow deceived and need help. Just to show that I am sincere in my question, I will not even respond to your post with anything but a thank you. I will consider what you write and pray that the Lord open my heart and mind to what you are saying in the event that I am somehow missing the truth.
    Thanks in advance for your remarks.
    Hobie.
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Anyone can give their "twist" on what someone else says, and it is even easier to just quote someone who is doing the twisting. "

    that's the point. YOu haven't even looked at the books. Everything they said he footnotes and even includes sound bytes on a tape you can get. You're the one not "listening" hob.

    "It is only after they read CIC and the twisted interpretations that these "heresies" suddenly appear."

    Not really, EVERYONE I know came to that conclusion LONG before reading those books, if they did at all and my church is quite liberal when it comes to those things. You just want them to be true, sorry bub, not according to scripture, that is why teachers need to watch what they say, they are teachers.
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "But a believer can walk in fellowship with God and remain healthy. "

    I would have to disagree. As the bible states God sends sickness or allows it to happen to those who are in perfect fellowship with him.

    "I do not feel astray. "

    I think that might be the problem, you're using "feelings" as a gauge.

    If you're not in a trial hobs, maybe there is something wrong, maybe the enemy is comfortable having you where you are and thus is not attacking at all.
     
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