Women's Suffrage in The Church vs in Public

[PreachersWife2004]

So, are you saying that God sinned by appointing a women to have authority over men? There weren't other men in the world that God could have appointed?

Please Rev, you know better. Of course I'm not saying God sinned.

I'm guessing that there weren't other men that God could've appointed, because he appointed Deborah instead.

I think you need to read what I've been writing in this whole thread. I'm not disagreeing that women can hold positions of leadership in society. The WELS allows for that as well...but it also allows that some women, given the doctrine of the role of man and woman, may not be comfortable in that type of role and it's not what God intended for them. They are free to believe that as well.

I'm not comfortable voting myself, but I don't see the problem if another woman is comfortable with it. But we believe that voting within the spiritual matters is an exercise of authority and should not be undertaken by women. When women need a voice, we have several avenues. We have our husbands, we have our fathers, we have our council, we have our elders. We are allowed to speak up.

 

[DaRev]

The only reason that Deborah was appointed was because the man who God wanted for the job refused to do it. I wasn't the head of my household because I wanted to be, I was the head because I had to be.

And I've not said that the WELS prohibits positions of authority in society. I believe I just spent three to four pages showing that the WELS allows for it because the bible doesn't specifically give rules for the role of man and woman in society, therefore the WELS leaves it up to the individual.

I doubt that God appointed you to head your household as He appointed Deborah to judge Israel.

As for what the Bible specifically gives rules, it pertains to the one divinely established office in the Church. It does not specify any man made positions, whether in a congregation or in the civil realm. The WELS applies this broadly to include man made positions. This is the point of the whole discussion. Whether or not to apply something concerning the pastoral office to other things is a matter of personal choice, from a Biblical perspective anyway.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I doubt that God appointed you to head your household as He appointed Deborah to judge Israel.

Yes, he did. The man who was supposed to head the household did not step up and do his duty, so I had to do it. Granted, there was no voice or booming thunder.

As for what the Bible specifically gives rules, it pertains to the one divinely established office in the Church. It does not specify any man made positions, whether in a congregation or in the civil realm. The WELS applies this broadly to include man made positions. This is the point of the whole discussion. Whether or not to apply something concerning the pastoral office to other things is a matter of personal choice, from a Biblical perspective anyway.

Actually, it doesn't limit it to the pulpit. The scriptures don't say "women can't be in authority over pastors". It talks specifically about how only men should be pastors, yes. It talks about how women shouldn't have authority over men, but just in the church. You consider your pulpit to be the only God instituted office, whereas we also consider teachers, elders and councilmen to also be called by God. Therefore, we apply the authority there as well. It's not as broad as what you keep trying to make it be. Our teachers do not have authority over men. I am the choir director but I have no authority over men.

The passage in the bible says we are all called by God to our own offices. Can't argue with that.

 

[DaRev]

Actually, it doesn't limit it to the pulpit. The scriptures don't say "women can't be in authority over pastors". It talks specifically about how only men should be pastors, yes. It talks about how women shouldn't have authority over men, but just in the church. You consider your pulpit to be the only God instituted office, whereas we also consider teachers, elders and councilmen to also be called by God. Therefore, we apply the authority there as well. It's not as broad as what you keep trying to make it be. Our teachers do not have authority over men. I am the choir director but I have no authority over men.

In the proper context, the teaching of the submission of the wife to the husbands "headship" (which is a headship of servitude) is compared to the relationship of Christ (the bridegroom, husband) and the Church (His bride, wife). The pastoral office is the only divinely instituted office in the Church. No where in Scripture does it address the positions of church secretary, treasurer, school principal, sexton, etc. It really only refers to the pastoral office and those who may carry out those functions. The one who is called to hold that office or carry out those functions are doing the work of Christ, by His authority, in His household, the Church. The one who is the pastor, or even assists in the carrying out of the functions of his office, are acting in the stead and by the authority of Christ who is the bridegroom, the husband. When the Scripture speaks of the authority of men and women in the Church, this is the context in which it speaks. It is the familial relationship, role, and responsibility. That relationship, role and responsibility simply is not applied outside of that position or office within the Church. It just isn't. This is why there is no mention of this doctrine applying to civil society. It's not the same relationship.

How you or the WELS chooses to apply that outside of the one divinely established office in the Church is a personal decision. They can apply as broadly as they wish so long as it applies to the pastoral office as God intends. But don't claim that those who apply it as Scripture clearly teaches it are wrong or are acting contrary to Scripture. Not every relationship between men and women is familial in nature. Business or politics is not the same type of relationship.

 

[LimitedTerm]

You needn't feel bad for us poor womenfolk of the WELS. We've done our research too. My marriage is a partnership and everything I do is done with a discussion with my husband, as it should be. I feel sorry for women who seem to think that the WELS views on the roles of men and women equate to some patriarchal nightmare in Afghanistan.

What about women who are unmarried? Shouldn't they have a voice?

 

[Dakota Brother]

What about women who are unmarried? Shouldn't they have a voice?

I have served for multiple years on our local church council (WELS). We hold quarterly congregational meetings with
open discussion on various items. Women are welcome to sit in on the quarterly meeting and if they have questions or comments that's ok. I have also have had them talk to me privately on an issues, as I am sure other councilmen have. On some things their opinion is asked for, before deciding on a particular item. They may also offer input thru their husbands if married. So while they do not vote, out of love and respect they do have a voice.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

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