Women's Suffrage in The Church vs in Public

[PreachersWife2004]

when you're trying to compare authority over men with murder and stealing, it's DEFINITELY apples and oranges.

I'm not going to go 'round and 'round with you on this one. What you believe the WELS teaches is not what the WELS teaches. Until you can realize this, you're arguing from a false start.

 

[cerette]

I don't know how to reply within a quote, so I will copy & paste something PW wrote and then reply to it:

PW: It's not based on a scripture passage alone. It is based on studying the scriptures and reading what they say, as well as what they do not say.

--I would be truly interested in learning more about this..please give me references to Scripture passages you use to come to your conclusion. (Plus, in my question I never asked for just one verse, I said passage/-s)

 

[cerette]

when you're trying to compare authority over men with murder and stealing, it's DEFINITELY apples and oranges.

I'm not going to go 'round and 'round with you on this one. What you believe the WELS teaches is not what the WELS teaches. Until you can realize this, you're arguing from a false start.

Do you or do you not believe that the WELS teaches that female submission is not limited to the church and marriage?

I know that the WELS teaches that female submission is not limited to church and marriage. In other words--they teach universal submission, and allow for exceptions in the civic realm.

It's not apples and oranges when you see it from this angle: What I am doing is I am comparing different GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS. Of course the specific acts are very different (being in authority over men//murder//stealing), but that is not what I am comparing, I am comparing the attribute they have in common--namely that they're "commandments given by God". (So what I've tried to ask is how come it's ok to not follow one such commandment [authority over men] but not ok to not follow another [murder]?)

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Do you or do you not believe that the WELS teaches that female submission is not limited to the church and marriage?

We believe that we should try to hold to our faith while in society. For some, that may mean they don't take a position that may put them in authority. For others, that means they can in good conscience take a position like that (like I have) where the authority is not an issue.

I know that the WELS teaches that female submission is not limited to church and marriage. In other words--they teach universal submission, and allow for exceptions in the civic realm.

We do NOT teach universal submission.

It's not apples and oranges when you see it from this angle: What I am doing is I am comparing different GOD GIVEN COMMANDMENTS. Of course the specific acts are very different (being in authority over men//murder//stealing), but that is not what I am comparing, I am comparing the attribute they have in common--namely that they're "commandments given by God". (So what I've tried to ask is how come it's ok to not follow one such commandment [authority over men] but not ok to not follow another [murder]?)

In one case, there are no clear cut rules for following the role of man and woman IN SOCIETY. Therefore, the church recognizes that women (And men for that matter) need to choose their roles in society carefully as well. The bible has examples of women who were in society and probably had some authority over men, such as in the marketplace, but it wasn't against the principle of the role of man and woman.

When Paul is speaking of authority, he's doing so in a letter to the church. When submission is talked about, it's talked about in a marital relationship. We have clear guidelines and rules. Those guidelines and rules don't necessarily translate over to society, though. I wouldn't be expected to have sex with a man other than my husband just because he told me to and I'm supposed to be submissive to every man. I am not every man's helper, I am my husband's helper.

The bible DOES give us clear cut rules where murder is wrong in any instance.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I don't know how to reply within a quote, so I will copy & paste something PW wrote and then reply to it:

PW: It's not based on a scripture passage alone. It is based on studying the scriptures and reading what they say, as well as what they do not say.

--I would be truly interested in learning more about this..please give me references to Scripture passages you use to come to your conclusion. (Plus, in my question I never asked for just one verse, I said passage/-s)

I already explained it. The scriptures do not give clear cut examples of headship and submission in society. We see headship and submission talked about in spiritual matters and in marriage. NOT in society. Rather than saying you don't need to worry about it in society, we say that it is up to the individual as to how they want to live that doctrine, and it is not for us to judge.

 

[cerette]

I already explained it. The scriptures do not give clear cut examples of headship and submission in society. We see headship and submission talked about in spiritual matters and in marriage. NOT in society. Rather than saying you don't need to worry about it in society, we say that it is up to the individual as to how they want to live that doctrine, and it is not for us to judge.

Where does the Bible clearly teach that headship & submission also applies to society? How can you have a doctrine about submission in society if it is not clearly taught in the Bible?

And I don't say that you don't need to worry about it in society. In fact everyone needs to "worry about it" in all situations, because we know that a Christian attitude is not to be one of "I wanna be lording over others" but rather a willingness to serve others. That goes for everyone, everywhere. However, that is far from saying that the same principle of submission in church and marriage also transfers into the civic realm but since we don't have any clear cut directions on how to apply it we leave it to each individual to make a judgement for themselves.

 

[cerette]

We believe that we should try to hold to our faith while in society. For some, that may mean they don't take a position that may put them in authority. For others, that means they can in good conscience take a position like that (like I have) where the authority is not an issue.



We do NOT teach universal submission.



In one case, there are no clear cut rules for following the role of man and woman IN SOCIETY. Therefore, the church recognizes that women (And men for that matter) need to choose their roles in society carefully as well. The bible has examples of women who were in society and probably had some authority over men, such as in the marketplace, but it wasn't against the principle of the role of man and woman.

When Paul is speaking of authority, he's doing so in a letter to the church. When submission is talked about, it's talked about in a marital relationship. We have clear guidelines and rules. Those guidelines and rules don't necessarily translate over to society, though. I wouldn't be expected to have sex with a man other than my husband just because he told me to and I'm supposed to be submissive to every man. I am not every man's helper, I am my husband's helper.

The bible DOES give us clear cut rules where murder is wrong in any instance.

You say it's not limited. You say it's not universal. You wanna keep the cake and eat it at the same time. Either that, or you don't understand the term 'universal'.

 

[alexnbethmom]

i find this conversation extremely interesting (and a little entertaining)....

PW - i would love to hear your thoughts on Deborah....

 

[PreachersWife2004]

i find this conversation extremely interesting (and a little entertaining)....

PW - i would love to hear your thoughts on Deborah....

Deborah was an excellent leader appointed by God because a man refused to step up and do his duty.

Was it wrong that she stepped up? Pretty much. Was it necessitated? Absolutely, because this is a sinful world.

For 8 years I was a single parent. I played the role of mother and father to my son. This is not how God intended it should be, but it had to be this way because of how sin has entered this world. Was God pleased with the situation? More than like not, since it was a result of sin. Was God pleased with the way I stepped up and fulfilled that role? I would certainly hope so, as I spent those 8 years often in prayer for God to guide me in the right direction so as to "fix" the situation. And He did, and I'm thankful for that.

Outside of our home, I have the ability to make triple what my husband makes. It would not be a sin for me to have a job that paid more than my husband's job (and I've had more than a few, although my present job does not) unless I decided that I was better than he was, or that I sought out being the primary "breadwinner" and used it against Matt. This is how we apply roles of man and women in society without having clear cut examples from the bible.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You say it's not limited. You say it's not universal. You wanna keep the cake and eat it at the same time. Either that, or you don't understand the term 'universal'.

No, I don't wanna keep the cake and eat it at the same time. My synod is making allowances for the role of man and woman in society because the bible is not clear on it. The bible is clear on spiritual and marital matters. The bible clearly says we should live our faith at all times. Submission to my husband is not equal to submission to all men in the world.

And with that, I'm done discussing this aspect of the conversation. I am simply repeating myself. I have given scriptural examples, from the link that you provided, Cerette, which you apparently seem to have cherry picked from, because there are plenty of scriptures that work in context with the article. You answered your question of "what does this mean" with your own interpretation and then went on to call it what the WELS teaches, when it is not what the WELS teaches.

I don't need you to justify why you left the WELS, and I get the feeling that this all boils down to you needing to justify why you left to me. I frankly don't care. You have your issues with the WELS and they're your issues that I don't share. If I believed that the WELS had it wrong scripturally then I would leave the WELS. Obviously, I don't believe we have it wrong because not only am I still WELS, I'm married to a man who teaches WELS doctrines to everyone else.

 

[cerette]

Why was it wrong that Deborah stepped up?
Do you think the Queen of England is sinning being that she is the queen? It's not like she doesn't have sons who could take over her job and become king.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Why was it wrong that Deborah stepped up?

Because God asked a man to take the leadership role and that man refused. Deborah shouldn't have had to step up.

Do you think the Queen of England is sinning being that she is the queen? It's not like she doesn't have sons who could take over her job and become king.

I don't judge the Queen of England for her role, which is exactly how we teach it.

 

[cerette]

No, I don't wanna keep the cake and eat it at the same time. My synod is making allowances for the role of man and woman in society because the bible is not clear on it. The bible is clear on spiritual and marital matters. The bible clearly says we should live our faith at all times. Submission to my husband is not equal to submission to all men in the world.

And with that, I'm done discussing this aspect of the conversation. I am simply repeating myself. I have given scriptural examples, from the link that you provided, Cerette, which you apparently seem to have cherry picked from, because there are plenty of scriptures that work in context with the article. You answered your question of "what does this mean" with your own interpretation and then went on to call it what the WELS teaches, when it is not what the WELS teaches.

I don't need you to justify why you left the WELS, and I get the feeling that this all boils down to you needing to justify why you left to me. I frankly don't care. You have your issues with the WELS and they're your issues that I don't share. If I believed that the WELS had it wrong scripturally then I would leave the WELS. Obviously, I don't believe we have it wrong because not only am I still WELS, I'm married to a man who teaches WELS doctrines to everyone else.

I'm shocked that a pastor's wife isn't willing to go all the way in a doctrinal discussion, but chooses to drop it because she has to repeat herself. I encourage you to study this doctrine in depth, compare what John Brug writes in "Man and woman" and the doctrinal statements with what is actually said in the Bible and what is not said. The wels is going beyond Scripture when saying that female submission is "not limited", and your conscience is bound to a teaching that wasn't clearly based on Scripture. I feel bad for you and all other women in the WELS, who feel they have to reach some mature decision of their own in order to maybe accept a specific job or to go and vote.

For me this conversation has never been about showing you why I left the WELS. This woman issue was just one of several reasons. For me this has all along been about the love for the truth. We are to speak up if someone teaches falsely, and we are to test teachings.

Unfortunately you have not guided me to the Scripture passages that clearly teach what you teach.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm shocked that a pastor's wife isn't willing to go all the way in a doctrinal discussion, but chooses to drop it because she has to repeat herself.

Not sure what difference it makes that I'm a pastor's wife...even if I was just a normal boring layperson I'd still not continue because you are not hearing what I'm saying.

I encourage you to study this doctrine in depth, compare what John Brug writes in "Man and woman" and the doctrinal statements with what is actually said in the Bible and what is not said. The wels is going beyond Scripture when saying that female submission is "not limited", and your conscience is bound to a teaching that wasn't clearly based on Scripture. I feel bad for you and all other women in the WELS, who feel they have to reach some mature decision of their own in order to maybe accept a specific job or to go and vote.

You needn't feel bad for us poor womenfolk of the WELS. We've done our research too. My marriage is a partnership and everything I do is done with discussion with my husband, as it should be. I feel sorry for women who seem to think that the WELS views on the roles of men and women equate to some patriarchal nightmare in Afghanistan.

For me this conversation has never been about showing you why I left the WELS. This woman issue was just one of several reasons. For me this has all along been about the love for the truth. We are to speak up if someone teaches falsely, and we are to test teachings.

You have yet to show me how the teaching is false beyond what you claim the WELS teaches.

I love the truth as well, which is why I am WELS.

And the vibe you were giving me is "this is why I left and now I need to make it clear why I thought it was wrong, even though I'm being told countless times that what I thought the WELS teaches isn't actually what the WELS teaches."

Unfortunately you have not guided me to the Scripture passages that clearly teach what you teach.

This clearly indicates to me that you didn't even read your own link that you posted.

 

[alexnbethmom]

God appointed Deborah, but it was wrong for her to step up?

that sounds like a massive contradiction to me....

 

[PreachersWife2004]

God appointed Deborah, but it was wrong for her to step up?

that sounds like a massive contradiction to me....

God appointed Deborah because a man refused to take his leadership position. It was wrong that Deborah had to step up.

 

[DaRev]

Where does the Bible clearly teach that headship & submission also applies to society?

It doesn't. That's the whole point. The Scriptures teach about the roles and responsibilities of men and women in the household and in the Church's one divinely established office. The WELS applies a specific doctrine very broadly. While that is their choice to do, they have no basis to claim that others are wrong when they apply it as the Scriptures specifically teach it.

 

[DaRev]

Deborah was an excellent leader appointed by God because a man refused to step up and do his duty.

Was it wrong that she stepped up? Pretty much. Was it necessitated? Absolutely, because this is a sinful world.

So, are you saying that God sinned by appointing a women to have authority over men? There weren't other men in the world that God could have appointed?

 

[DaRev]

God appointed Deborah, but it was wrong for her to step up?

that sounds like a massive contradiction to me....

It is a contradiction. God's appointing of Deborah is a clear example that women can have positions of authority in the civic realm.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It is a contradiction. God's appointing of Deborah is a clear example that women can have positions of authority in the civic realm.

The only reason that Deborah was appointed was because the man who God wanted for the job refused to do it. I wasn't the head of my household because I wanted to be, I was the head because I had to be.

And I've not said that the WELS prohibits positions of authority in society. I believe I just spent three to four pages showing that the WELS allows for it because the bible doesn't specifically give rules for the role of man and woman in society, therefore the WELS leaves it up to the individual.