Women's pastors?

[OzSpen]

As was pointed out to you in the sermon I posted (and you ignored for whatever reason) that verse has to do with the rearing and raising of Godly children. John MacArthur said it better, but it basically harkens back to how Eve was deceived first in the fall, and now through the raising of Godly children, eliminates that stigma. I really suggest listening to the sermon. As I said, it answers your questions if you'll take the time. Also, I'm still in the midst of gathering more information for your earlier points, though I'm afraid it will come down to "my scholarly articles/authors versus your scholarly articles/authors".

How can a woman be 'saved through childbearing'? (1 Tim 2:15)

 

[Avid]

How can a woman be 'saved through childbearing'? (1 Tim 2:15)

Read that whole verse. There is a big IF in the middle. The childbearing is part of why the woman is there. A large part of why she is there in the first place.

Must go now... Busy day ahead.
.

 

[Saricharity]

I just wanted to send you all a big JENNAE hug.
Discussing things stretches us all.
God bless you.

 

[Metal Minister]

I posted Romans is a deacon not higher up than a member of the church? Paul refers to them as coworkers, is a coworker not equal?

No, a deacon is a servant of the church. They have no authority, they have no leadership. They are there to offer support for the elders, period. I posted a link and excerpt that showed the biblical definition of deacon earlier.

Mary was give perhaps the most important ministry of all the first to announce Jesus was risen from the grave. Did she not have authority over the disciplines at that point? Jesus appointed her to preach He was back. Did Jesus not appoint her as a pastor role to them at that point?

No. She was the first there as it was a woman's job to help with burial preparations and maintaining the bodies. It easily could've been anyone who'd discovered the empty tomb. At that point she had no more authority than a messenger. Remember, Peter and John did not believe her, and ran to investigate. If she'd had authority, they would have simply taken her word for it.

 

[Metal Minister]

People have already posted verses and articles that have relevant scripture. I already shared the link to this article here in response to Jennae and in another thread in this section. I'll post it in full here.

Christian Ethics Today

Myth: Baptists Don't Believe In Women Pastors
By Sheri Adams, Professor of Church History and Theology
School of Divinity at Gardner-Webb University, NC

Without a guiding principle, the Bible's teachings on women may appear to be confusing to some people. Only husbands of one wife should be deacons (1 Tim. 3:12), yet Phoebe is a deaconess (Rom. 16:1). Women are not to speak in the church at Corinth (1 Cor. 15:34), yet they are given instructions about praying and prophesying in worship (1 Cor. 11:5ff.). Women are told not to teach or be in authority over men (1 Tim. 2:12), yet women did teach, and at least one woman Priscilla, along with her husband, Aquila, taught a man (Acts 18:26).

Egalitarian or Submissive

Baptists, as most other denominations, are divided in their approach to the Bible on the role of women in the church. Some follow a literal interpretation of certain biblical passages and make a case for the submission of women to men in the church. While these Baptists usually insist that women are equal in the sight of God, they believe that God has given men and women different roles in the home and in the church. They interpret Genesis 2 to mean that Eve was created to be Adam's helper and that ancient cultural pattern is applied universally to the present. For these Baptists, Jesus was not overly radical in his treatment of women (notably that he did not select a woman to be an apostle), and Paul taught a clear division of roles that is an inherent part of nature.

Other Baptists follow an egalitarian perspective. In Galatians 3:27-28, Paul wrote, "As many of you as are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus " (NRSV).1 The "Address to the Public," adopted on May 9, 1991, by the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, asserted:

We take Galatians as a clue to the way the Church should be ordered. We interpret the reference to women the same way we interpret the reference to slaves. If we have submissive roles for women, we must also have a place for slaves in the Church. In Galatians Paul follows the spirit of Jesus who courageously challenged the conventional wisdom of his day. It was a wisdom with rigid boundaries between men and women in religion and in public life. Jesus deliberately broke those barriers. He called women to follow him; he treated women as equally capable of dealing with sacred issues. Our model for the role of women in matters of faith is the Lord Jesus.2

Women in Early Baptist Life

Rosemary Radford Ruether suggests that the acceptance of women in non-traditional roles is often determined by need. For example, in the old West, every pair of hands was needed and valued. Women in that setting had more freedom than their counterparts in the old South. A similar pattern is evident in the New Testament. In Acts, women were disciples of Jesus and active in positions of leadership.3 While doors began to close before the end of the New Testament era, women still were active in public ministry. The subsequent history of the church, however, is a history of women becoming more and more powerless within the developing official hierarchy.

Baptist beginnings in early seventeenth-century England also illustrate the truth of Ruether's thesis. Baptists drew many of their members from the lower classes. General Baptists especially allowed women deacons. One particularly influential woman was Dorothy Hazzard, who helped form the Broadmead Baptist Church and occasionally preached. Another preacher was a Mrs. Attaway. Richer, established religious groups ridiculed General Baptists for giving women positions of authority. Still, women were actively involved in ministries of all kinds and suffered persecution, imprisonment, and death, just like the men.4

Particular Baptists were never as open as the General Baptists to the role of women in ministry. As the Baptist faith institutionalized in the late seventeenth century, the views of leaders like John Bunyan prevailed. Because men were made in the image of God, he said, women should not lead worship.

Baptist Women in America

In colonial America, Baptists gave no appearance that they were going to take the New World by storm until the First Great Awakening proved to be the catalyst they needed. American Congregationalism divided over the benefits of revival. Some New Light Congregationalists, supporters of revival methods, embraced believer's baptism and entered into Baptist life. Some of these new Baptists, called Separate Baptists, were open to the ministry of women, even women preachers.

The most famous of these women was Martha Stearns Marshall, sister of Shubal Stearns and wife of Daniel Marshall. Stearns and Marshall were the leaders of the Separate Baptist movement that brought significant growth to Baptists in the South during the late eighteenth century. Martha Stearns was regarded as a powerful preacher. Another Separate Baptist woman, Margaret Clay, was sentenced, but spared the whip, for preaching without a license. Unfortunately, history has forgotten the names of most other women exhorters.5

Once again, as Baptist work became more official, women's roles diminished. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, women found their greatest avenue for ministry in foreign missions. At first, mission agencies felt that a single woman could manage on a foreign field only with a male counterpart; but once that hurdle was cleared, single women poured out of America to live and work all over the world. For most Baptists, it was a case of "out of sight, out of mind," and they were largely unaware that women performed ministries of all kinds abroad, even planting churches and preaching. According to a popular story, Lottie Moon was once criticized for preaching the gospel to the Chinese. Her retort was that if the mission board wanted to send men to preach, they were welcome to do so, and if the men came, she would stop preaching.

Ordination

Northern Baptist records contain evidence of the ordination of women by the late 1880s. Since that time, American Baptist women have served as pastors of churches. A 1985 study revealed that 3 percent of American Baptist pastors and 16 percent of the associate and assistant pastors were women. By 2002, the numbers had continued to increase. American Baptists had 1,049 ordained women (14 percent of the total number of ordained ministers) with 923 serving in local church ministries. Eight percent of American Baptist pastors (373) were women. The role of associate pastor was especially open to women, with 33 percent (207) serving in that capacity.6

Southern Baptists were much slower to ordain a woman. On August 9, 1964, at Watts Street Baptist Church, Durham, North Carolina, Addie Davis was the first Southern Baptist woman ordained to the pastoral ministry. Throughout the twentieth century, Southern Baptist women were involved in ministries of all kinds, often unpaid and unnoticed. They did, however, run a major mission entity, the Woman's Missionary Union, and discovered there was not a great deal of difference in speaking before hundreds of people and preaching before the same people.

Close to 2,000 Southern Baptist women (or women with Southern Baptist roots) have been ordained. The majority of these women serve in chaplaincy roles, but many are also associate pastors and even senior pastors. Others are missionaries, teachers, denominational workers, campus ministers, or associational workers.

Some of these women have found a home with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF). This is especially true since the Southern Baptist Convention defines ministry for women in increasingly narrow terms and rejects women for pastoral ministry. In 2002, the CBF had 40 women on staff. The CBF also had 85 women field personnel, both single and married. Some CBF women are involved in church planting and/or pastoring.7 Other Baptist groups have encouraged women who feel called to the pastorate, including the Alliance of Baptists, Baptist General Conference, and Progressive National Baptists.

The Future

The Baptist heritage gives evidence to the call of God upon women for pastoral ministry. While some women saw little or no way to act upon their call, others channeled their pastoral gifts into missions or other kinds of service. A precious few have found churches willing to accept them as pastors.

The Baptist past reveals that pastoral ministry is often determined more by need than by theology. Churches hesitant to acknowledge the validity of women pastors, but in need of ministerial leadership, have let women speak, but not preach; they have let them deliver a message, but not a sermon; and they have let them plant churches, but not pastor churches. But churches that have experienced the pastoral leadership of dedicated Christian women can attest the truth of the declaration, "in Christ there is neither male nor female."

Is it true that Baptists do not support women in pastoral ministry? Of course, some Baptists do not, but the Baptist tradition of freedom dispels the myth. Denying and stifling a strong sense of call is as difficult for a woman as it is for a man. Women have preached and served as Baptist pastors, and they will persevere in spite of the opposition as they are called.

Simply posting an article that points out the error and it's being embraced is not a biblical answer to the question posed. I've already pointed out that Galatians 3:28 has nothing to do with who has authority in the church. Unless we'd like to say that Paul contradicted himself between Galatians 3:28 and 1 Corinthians 11:3, and 1 Timothy 2:11-15. So please present the biblical evidence so we can discuss it.

 

[Metal Minister]

Metal where did you go.

But 1161 I suffer 2010 5719 not 3756 a woman 1135 to teach 1321 5721, nor 3761 to usurp authority 831 5721 over the man 435, but 235 to be 1511 5750 in 1722 silence 2271.

strongs:
Word: auqentew

Pronounce: ow-then-teh'-o

Strongs Number: G831

Orig: from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker); to act of oneself, i.e. (figuratively) dominate:--usurp authority over. G846

Use: Verb

Heb Strong:

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

do you see that The word usurp. That means to act on ones behalf. so what was Paul saying this.

I do not let women teach out of there own will, meaning they think a man should do this or church should do this but it is the woman's will not God's. Paul says nothing about a Woman being appointed by God to teach.

So for that matter men should not usurp authority either for both men and women are to be direct by God and not their own mind. That is what Paul was saying and it apply to both men and women.

Now metal I listen to your preacher and where are you now.
For one he says women can not speak in tongues and prophecies, Now those are both spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit, no man better tell a a woman or any one else they can not use the gift which God gives, and there lies the arrogance i hear in your preacher and this shows he has put him self above even The Holy Spirit. and there was women prophets.

Now he goes on to say it was woman's curse from sin that she should desire to rule over man but man shall rule over her. You can not apply a woman's sin when she has been forgiven and washed clean in the Blood of Christ. Also that preacher is speaking of her sinful nature which Paul says has been put to death and the woman is reborn in Christ. so she no longer obeys those desires they are dead to her, the christian woman any way. so yeah that does not hold water.

He also says there no woman wrote any part of the Bible well guess what no Gentile wrote any part of the Bible either does that mean Gentiles can not preach?

your preachers arguments are not from God because if they were they would not fall apart like this.

I can feel God's anger in me, how do I know its God, because its righteous anger, ever feel that?

Now i have a bone to pick with you metal, you say metal minister, I take it you like metal music,my son likes it too. What I find interesting is how is it a child of God would like music which glorifies satan?

Is it christian metal? because that music still does not glorify God i know the energy they scream it with and that is not The Holy Spirit. so how is it you like metal, oh and I would be interested to know what you have to say about all this.

so there we all understand Paul now, Thanks to God. He meant He did not allow people to teach there own will but they must be appointed by God and do God's will, not there own. thanks.

Hope this helps blue

Smh, did you notice you ignored one of the definitions of the words you chopped up? #4 to be exact. I'll reply in full later when I have more time.

 

[Blue Wren]

Simply posting an article that points out the error and it's being embraced is not a biblical answer to the question posed. I've already pointed out that Galatians 3:28 has nothing to do with who has authority in the church. Unless we'd like to say that Paul contradicted himself between Galatians 3:28 and 1 Corinthians 11:3, and 1 Timothy 2:11-15. So please present the biblical evidence so we can discuss it.

What I have learned from you is that absolutely nothing is going to make you reconsider any perspective than the one you're locked into. People have explained Bible verses to you, they have provided you other perspectives. Biblical scholars disagree with you about the importance of Galatians 3:28 and the authority it holds. Paul most likely did not write all the letters attributed to him, and they were from a 1st century man to a 1st century church. If you want to think they reflect the will of God for HIS plans for women, you go right ahead and do that.

 

[OzSpen]

You have kept me from becoming completely discouraged here. Thank you. Thank you, to Oz, too.
I've enjoyed learning from both of you.

Blue Wren,

Thank you so much for your encouragement. May you and yours have a blessed Christmas season.

By way of background, after I was converted to Christ I became a member of an evangelical church that had a traditional approach to women in ministry - none of it among men. However, as I read the biblical texts more closely, I found potential conflicts between silence of women ('the women should keep silent in the churches', 1 Cor 14:34) and women/wives who can prophesy ('every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered...', 1 Cor 11:5). Therefore I concluded that the traditional interpretation of silence of women was incorrect. You can read some of my reasoning at, Women in ministry: an overview of some biblical passages.

For a more detailed analysis of the issues in 1 Tim 2:11-15, see my assessment in, Must Women Never Teach Men in the Church?

I am not a promoter of feminist theology but am interested in careful exegesis of the biblical text. That has allowed me to see that the Scriptures provide an open door of ministry to both men and women and it began on the day of Pentecost with the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy,

'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy .... Even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy' (Acts 2:17-18 ESV).
​

Have you read Craig Keener's article, 'Was Paul for or against women in ministry?'

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Metal Minister]

What I have learned from you is that absolutely nothing is going to make you reconsider any perspective than the one you're locked into, which is ignorant. People have explained Bible verses to you, they have provided you other perspectives. Biblical scholars disagree with you about the importance of Galatians 3:28 and the authority it holds. Paul most likely did not write all the letters attributed to him, and they were from a 1st century man to a 1st century church. If you want to think they reflect the will of God for HIS plans for women, you go right ahead and do that. Since I will never go to a church that does not ordain women, what you believe is irrelevant to me.

Then the scriptures are irrelevant to you as well. Simply leaning on "biblical scholars" isn't an argument, as I can site biblical scholars that do agree with me. When you have to look to scholars to back up a presupposition, that's called confirmation bias. You want it to be ok for woman to be pastors, so you only accept arguments that bolster your view. I used to believe there was no problem with women in pastoral roles, until I did some digging. Then I realized that the plain reading of the scriptures forbids it. When you have to twist the content and context of scripture to make it not stand against what you want to believe, it's a sign that you're not being true to the scripture. I can use your argument against you easily!

"If don't think Romans teaches us we are all sinners, that's ignorant! Who even knows who wrote Romans anyway!"

" I don't see how a loving God can send people to hell, so those passages don't actually mean that. Who knows who wrote them anyway!"

"It's wrong to say woman can't be pastors, and who even knows who wrote 1 Timothy anyway!"

Do you see the slope you're on? If it's your personal belief that women can hold authority, and you have a church that teaches that, then so be it. Don't try to twist scripture to fit this view however. I asked a straightforward question of big local citation for the positive assertion that the big letters says it's ok for women to hold authority in the church. None has been provided so far.

 

[OzSpen]

Metal,

No, the Scriptures are NOT irrelevant, there are different interpretations. What makes yours correct and Blue Wren's (and mine) incorrect?

Do you support the silence of women in ministry according to 1 Cor 14:33b-34, 'As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says' (ESV)?

Do you agree that these 2 verses teach that women should be absolutely silent in the churches where there are men and women present?

Oz

Then the scriptures are irrelevant to you as well. Simply leaning on "biblical scholars" isn't an argument, as I can site biblical scholars that do agree with me. When you have to look to scholars to back up a presupposition, that's called confirmation bias. You want it to be ok for woman to be pastors, so you only accept arguments that bolster your view. I used to believe there was no problem with women in pastoral roles, until I did some digging. Then I realized that the plain reading of the scriptures forbids it. When you have to twist the content and context of scripture to make it not stand against what you want to believe, it's a sign that you're not being true to the scripture. I can use your argument against you easily!

"If don't think Romans teaches us we are all sinners, that's ignorant! Who even knows who wrote Romans anyway!"

" I don't see how a loving God can send people to hell, so those passages don't actually mean that. Who knows who wrote them anyway!"

"It's wrong to say woman can't be pastors, and who even knows who wrote 1 Timothy anyway!"

Do you see the slope you're on? If it's your personal belief that women can hold authority, and you have a church that teaches that, then so be it. Don't try to twist scripture to fit this view however. I asked a straightforward question of big local citation for the positive assertion that the big letters says it's ok for women to hold authority in the church. None has been provided so far.

 

[Job8]

If Scripture regarding the role of men and women in the church is 'straightforward' and is 'not subject to misinterpretation', would you please tell me the meaning of v. 15 in this passage because the passage deals with the role of women in the church?

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:11-15 ESV, emphasis added).
​

Oz

Sure, that verse you have pointed to can be easily and simply understood in the light of all Scripture.

But first, if you will simply meditate long and hard on verse 12, that should resolve any doubt in your mind that Christian women are (a) not to teach in the church (which is the function of male pastor/elder/bishops who have the requisite spiritual gifts) or (2) exercise authority over men (which authority is given to male elders over the whole church).

God also gives us the reason why women cannot hold these positions. It is because of Eve, who knew God's command regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and yet permitted herself to be deceived and seduced by Satan into disobedience. It would appear that momentarily Eve tried to exercise some "independence" (as do the feminists) from "male hierarchy" and went off on her own. She was alone when Satan approached her. That was not her place, since she was supposed to be always at Adam's side. Thus she first deceived herself, and then was deceived by Satan. Thus all women pay for Eve's foolishness, just as all mankind pays for Adam's deliberate disobedience.

Furthermore, God has constituted males and females differently. Females generally make emotional decisions, males generally rational decisions. Thus a woman preaching and teaching would allow her emotions to get the better of her (and you see this in the workplace).

Now some may claim that because Paul uses "I" this is not the Lord's command. But Paul makes it clear in other passages that when he is speaking with apostolic authority, it is indeed the Lord speaking through him. Furthermore, this is what he has written, and as Peter tells us, ALL of Paul's epistles are Scripture (2 Pet 3:15,16), and Scripture (according to 2 Tim 3:16) is GOD-BREATHED (Gk theopneustos = inspired). So we can confidently believe and teach that this is God's Word to women. End of discussion.

As to verse 15 what exactly is "saved through childbearing"? This harks back to Eve, who was deceived and sinned, but was ultimately "saved" through childbearing (Gen 3:20) and became "the mother of all living". But when we come to the Christian woman, we know that all sinners are saved (justified) by grace through faith, and it is not of works (Eph 2:8,9). So childbearing is not a means of "earning" salvation.

At the same time we are to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Eph 6:5; Phil 2:12). So the Christian woman works out her salvation by having children (saved through childbearing) and ministering to them, as well as her husband, and this includes faith, love, holiness and self-control -- in other words, a woman of character who loves her husband and her family next to God is doing precisely what Christ requires.

This also tells us that God's plan for Christian women is to be wives and mothers, not single and frustrated (and certainly not nuns and celibate, which is a doctrine of devils -- 1 Tim 4:1-3). If a Christian woman has to look after her household and and do a good job, she will have little or no time for anything else. Thus she will work out her salvation within her home, in submission to her husband (v. 11).

 

[Metal Minister]

Blue Wren,

Thank you so much for your encouragement. May you and yours have a blessed Christmas season.

By way of background, after I was converted to Christ I became a member of an evangelical church that had a traditional approach to women in ministry - none of it among men. However, as I read the biblical texts more closely, I found potential conflicts between silence of women ('the women should keep silent in the churches', 1 Cor 14:34) and women/wives who can prophesy ('every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered...', 1 Cor 11:5). Therefore I concluded that the traditional interpretation of silence of women was incorrect. You can read some of my reasoning at, Women in ministry: an overview of some biblical passages.

For a more detailed analysis of the issues in 1 Tim 2:11-15, see my assessment in, Must Women Never Teach Men in the Church?

I am not a promoter of feminist theology but am interested in careful exegesis of the biblical text. That has allowed me to see that the Scriptures provide an open door of ministry to both men and women and it began on the day of Pentecost with the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy,
'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy .... Even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy' (Acts 2:17-18 ESV).
Have you read Craig Keener's article, 'Was Paul for or against women in ministry?'

In Christ,
Oz

Oz, I am currently reviewing the links you provided...

 

[Blue Wren]

Then the scriptures are irrelevant to you as well. Simply leaning on "biblical scholars" isn't an argument, as I can site biblical scholars that do agree with me. When you have to look to scholars to back up a presupposition, that's called confirmation bias. You want it to be ok for woman to be pastors, so you only accept arguments that bolster your view. I used to believe there was no problem with women in pastoral roles, until I did some digging. Then I realized that the plain reading of the scriptures forbids it. When you have to twist the content and context of scripture to make it not stand against what you want to believe, it's a sign that you're not being true to the scripture. I can use your argument against you easily!

"If don't think Romans teaches us we are all sinners, that's ignorant! Who even knows who wrote Romans anyway!"

" I don't see how a loving God can send people to hell, so those passages don't actually mean that. Who knows who wrote them anyway!"

"It's wrong to say woman can't be pastors, and who even knows who wrote 1 Timothy anyway!"

Do you see the slope you're on? If it's your personal belief that women can hold authority, and you have a church that teaches that, then so be it. Don't try to twist scripture to fit this view however. I asked a straightforward question of big local citation for the positive assertion that the big letters says it's ok for women to hold authority in the church. None has been provided so far.

There's an enormous difference between considering YOUR interpretations and beliefs of scripture as being absolutely irrelevant to my faith and thinking the verses themselves are. You don't see the hypocrisy in what you've written, and you won't no matter how much effort is put into explaining it to you.

Yes, we all look to Biblical scholars not for confirmation bias but for more understanding. We do not just accept what they say because they have more knowledge and experience, but we consider it with what the Holy Spirit in us is saying. I'm young and new to being a Christian. I don't have a degree from a divinity school or decades of experience yet.

I think what this person stated here, sums things up well:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7856764/#post66787444

 

[Metal Minister]

There's an enormous difference between considering YOUR interpretations and beliefs of scripture as being absolutely irrelevant to my faith and thinking the verses themselves are. You don't see the hypocrisy in what you've written, and you won't no matter how much effort is put into explaining it to you.

Yes, we all look to Biblical scholars not for confirmation bias but for more understanding. We do not just accept what they say because they have more knowledge and experience, but we consider it with what the Holy Spirit in us is saying. I'm young and new to being a Christian. I don't have a degree from a divinity school or decades of experience yet.

I think what this person stated here, sums things up well:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7856764/#post66787444

As you've just admitted, you are new to being a Christian, yet you are telling those of us (some of whom have schooling in the subjects at hand.) that we are wrong about what the scriptures say. You speak of hypocrisy? You admit you are new, yet tell those who have been studying scripture for years they are wrong based on what? Your interpretation?

2 Peter 3:16
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

I'm not trying to stress your faith, and I praise God that you have come to Christ, but we cannot allow societal notions to corrupt or twist the scriptures. God's word isn't politically correct, so we shouldn't try to make it be that way.

 

[abacabb3]

If we go by what the Scripture says, how the earliest Christians that actually read and wrote in Koine Greek interpreted, and how Christian tradition for nearly 2,000 years interpreted until people 50 years ago thought they knew better than all those people read the same Bible, then know women should not be ordained pastors.

 

[Blue Wren]

As you've just admitted, you are new to being a Christian, yet you are telling those of us (some of whom have schooling in the subjects at hand.) that we are wrong about what the scriptures say. You speak of hypocrisy? You admit you are new, yet tell those who have been studying scripture for years they are wrong based on what? Your interpretation?

2 Peter 3:16
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

I'm not trying to stress your faith, and I praise God that you have come to Christ, but we cannot allow societal notions to corrupt or twist the scriptures. God's word isn't politically correct, so we shouldn't try to make it be that way.

There are plenty of other Christians here, in this section and on this forum, who are probably older both in age and their years of being a Christian than you, and they disagree with you too. You have been just as hypocritical and haughty to them as you have been to me. It's why it's not profitable engaging with you and I keep responses to a minimum.

 

[Bluelion]

As you've just admitted, you are new to being a Christian, yet you are telling those of us (some of whom have schooling in the subjects at hand.) that we are wrong about what the scriptures say. You speak of hypocrisy? You admit you are new, yet tell those who have been studying scripture for years they are wrong based on what? Your interpretation?

2 Peter 3:16
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

I'm not trying to stress your faith, and I praise God that you have come to Christ, but we cannot allow societal notions to corrupt or twist the scriptures. God's word isn't politically correct, so we shouldn't try to make it be that way.

and in this we can see your thinking is wrong. You are a servant metal, and while she might be new if she is saved she has Jesus living inside her and bout you and me answer to her as much as she answers to us. That was uncalled for to attack her when, I do have the education and Have been saved all my life, i don't remember not being saved and I disagree with you. So don't attack her when others disagree with you also.

Fact is it is hypocritical to say a woman can not hold office in the church but can hold office outside of church, no one has want to even address this point I made many times. For Christians we do not have two sets of rules one inside the church and one outside, we are to act in the world as we behave in church. So if a woman can not have authority over men she can not period. Now no one will address that because that just sounds so far off that we know God did not mean that.

Thing is God in my hearts says women are equal, God says He has no favorites not even with holding His own son but given His life to save all who would have faith. But you say God favors men this would mean the Bible contradicts it self, which we know the Bible does not do because it is inspired by God and God does not do this.

Hey guess what do I fully understand what Paul was saying or why, no to be honest, its ok because not no one understands all the Bible. We all have parts. So I ask my heart which has God living in it and it says Paul did not mean that. Now even if i was not saved which i am I would still know right from wrong in my heart as Paul said the gentiles had the law before they had it in writing, it was written on there hearts and they new right from wrong. I to know right from wrong, and what my heart tells me is women can be good pastors and men do not have the market cornered in this area.

 

[Metal Minister]

There are plenty of other Christians here, in this section and on this forum, who are probably older both in age and their years of being a Christian than you, and they disagree with you too. You have been just as hypocritical and haughty to them as you have been to me. It's why it's not profitable engaging with you and I keep responses to a minimum.

That's fine, because again, there are just as many on my side as well. That's not argumentation, it's a logical fallacy known as the bandwagon fallacy. "Many people believe it, therefore it must be so." Ignore me if you like, but that does not change or refute the points provided, nor does it offer the biblical evidence for your claim.

 

[Metal Minister]

and in this we can see your thinking is wrong. You are a servant metal, and while she might be new if she is saved she has Jesus living inside her and bout you and me answer to her as much as she answers to us. That was uncalled for to attack her when, I do have the education and Have been saved all my life, i don't remember not being saved and I disagree with you. So don't attack her when others disagree with you also.

Fact is it is hypocritical to say a woman can not hold office in the church but can hold office outside of church, no one has want to even address this point I made many times. For Christians we do not have two sets of rules one inside the church and one outside, we are to act in the world as we behave in church. So if a woman can not have authority over men she can not period. Now no one will address that because that just sounds so far off that we know God did not mean that.

Thing is God in my hearts says women are equal, God says He has no favorites not even with holding His own son but given His life to save all who would have faith. But you say God favors men this would mean the Bible contradicts it self, which we know the Bible does not do because it is inspired by God and God does not do this.

Hey guess what do I fully understand what Paul was saying or why, no to be honest, its ok because not no one understands all the Bible. We all have parts. So I ask my heart which has God living in it and it says Paul did not mean that. Now even if i was not saved which i am I would still know right from wrong in my heart as Paul said the gentiles had the law before they had it in writing, it was written on there hearts and they new right from wrong. I to know right from wrong, and what my heart tells me is women can be good pastors and men do not have the market cornered in this area.

Firstly, I haven't attacked anyone, but I take offense at someone calling me a hypocrite when they themselves are just as guilty. Remember the log and the splinter. I will not accept a flawed interpretation based on a novel understanding in an effort to keep people's political correctness from being ruffled. So far, no one has offered what should be a very simple thing, provide the biblical basis of women holding authority in the church. If 1 Timothy 2 doesn't say what it plainly says, then providing a few verses (in context) that show women in authority or leadership in the church. Otherwise it's pure eisegesis. I'm still looking over the links oz posted earlier but so far I've seen nothing new. Appealing to your heart is not a valid way to accept or reject teachings in the church. It's emotional not logical, and certainly not scriptural. We are to test all things against the theópneustos scriptures, and when they run contrary to them, we are really to reject them. Until you can prove it is an overt teaching of the theópneustos scriptures, that women held authority in the church, the plain reading, held for the first 19+ centuries, stands. Everything else is an appeal to emotion or Argumentum ad Populum. Please provide the unambiguous scriptures that prove what you want to believe.

 

[Metal Minister]

Actually I will have to leave this to others for a time. I just received word that my sister is going in for emergency spinal surgery! God bless all, and please know that I mean no disrespect nor insult when I post. It is a product of my passion for God's word!