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Women's pastors?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Agulhas, Dec 13, 2014.

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  1. SpyderByte

    SpyderByte Well-Known Member

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    Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here, and cause the verses have been beaten to death, I won't bring them up, but for me, I have YET to find a good woman preacher. I can't STAND twinkie sermons, and that's all I've ever heard from a woman pastor. It's either all "love love love, everything is love, even the verses about God's wrath is all about how God is only love! " or I once had a fill in pastor at my church and she literally spend the entire time telling us how we as Christians hadda go to NC and protest their law on keeping panhandlers off their 8 lane highway! Meanwhile these poor people were getting killed cause every bodies doing 70+ mph. And then the new one at my church, she reads the verses, then ignores them for the rest of her sermon and goes on 45 minute tangents about stuff that has nothing to do with the verses she read, and then she tries to cram them back in at the end. All these people graduated from seminary colleges, so it ain't like they don't have the training. Anyway, that's my 2 cents, take it or leave it, like it or dont, but I think it's probably why women ain't supposed to be preachers.
     
  2. South Bound

    South Bound I stand with Israel.

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    nt
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  3. Saricharity

    Saricharity Follower of Christ

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    I don't believe it is a matter of interpretation. God did not make the bible so difficult for us to understand.
    God bless and I hope we can be friends and that you won't dislike me. Hugs
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  4. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

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    Good post. I have the same irritation about MOST people who are "pastors." This does not diminish your point, because I would not even sit for that kind of thing.

    You have more patience than me, to sit through that. My wife and I have left to seek a good Church over much less than what you described. You described things that would make me want to get up and leave during the sermon.
    .
     
  5. Blue Wren

    Blue Wren Well-Known Member

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    I can happily recommend a few churches that have excellent women pastors who do not give "twinkie" sermons. I became a Christian because of a female pastor who gave wonderful sermons about Christ. It wasn't lovey dovey, picking flowers sermons. She also taught classes, two every week, for people who like me who were interested in becoming Christians. She is the one who baptized me.
     
  6. Blue Wren

    Blue Wren Well-Known Member

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    I'm having trouble responding to your post because of the format. It will only let me quote this part. Instead of writing in a different font colour, could you quote the portions of the posts you want to respond to? You'll see a quote box on the menu bar in between the picture and the #. What you do is highlight the passage of the quote in the post you want to respond to, and hit that button. Then it will be quoted. That way, when people want to respond to you, they can very easily. I will copy and paste everything and try to respond to the whole post you wrote later on, when I am back at home. I volunteer at an animal hospital and am on a break from my phone.

    Now I will just say this. It is a matter of interpretation or else there wouldn't be hundreds of other Bible-believing churches, many that are also Baptist, who ordain women. I would never have become a Christian had it not been for the woman who baptized me. The church I go to now is Baptist, and it had been lead by a woman until she retired last year. I have to be honest. If I had read your posts six months ago, I would have been so put-off I wouldn't have been so open to attending a Baptist church. I'm glad I'm reading it now instead of back then. This is not to say that I dislike you. Of course I don't. People, they can disagree with you very strongly and still think you are a nice girl.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  7. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    alll about love oh no:D I got news for you it is all about Love, maybe you should submit to the authority and training God has given her? Just a thought. She sounds like a good pastor.:D
     
  8. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    personally I think there is nothing more beautiful than a strong woman. I don't want a woman to stand behind me, I want her to stand by me. That is why woman and man were created for each other.

    Sure I'll stand in the storm getting battered by the waves rain and wind and shield my wife from the storm, but at some point I am going to need my wife to stand up and give me rest or else i will just fall, All this by God of course.

    I am a servant to my wife many times as Jesus was to His followers, I take care of her, but my wife can be very strong when she needs to be. It is because of God and my wife we are married today. At one time i made a mistake and the storm just knock me down, It was then that God strengthen my wife and she with The strength of God picked me back up. Now you don't think God uses women in the church like that, that is bull.

    Its the strength of women that strengthen the men. every hear that saying behind every great man you will find a great woman. Lets be clear before its miss interpreted its the woman which strengthen the man, and the man the woman.
     
  9. Job8

    Job8 Senior Member

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    Blue Wren,

    The Scriptures pertaining to the role of men and women in the home and the the church are actually so straightforward, that they are not subject to misinterpretation. When we approach the Word of God as if God is speaking to us directly, He gives us very clear instructions about everything that is important. This is not subjective. It is objective truth confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

    The Bible makes it clear that women cannot and must not serve as pastors, elders, or deacons. That is reserved strictly for men and there are sound spiritual and psychological reasons given. I need not get into the Scriptures, since you believe they can be interpreted on a whim.

    Feminism has had much to do with what we are seeing in the churches today. Spinelessness among Christian leaders who should know better is the second reason. And Satan's devices to sow discord, dissension, and disobedience among Christians is the third reason. This is similar to ordaining homosexuals in certain denominations.

    What we are seeing on this thread is how "experiences" determine doctrine. "I had a wonderful female pastor therefore it must be OK with God". The authority of God's Word means little nowadays, particularly in the seminaries and their professors, who indoctrinate the future pastors into a subjective way of handling truth -- "If it feels good it must be right".

    For almost 2,000 years almost all Christians (regardless of affiliation) all over the world refused to allow women to minister the Word. Were they wrong, or were they simply obeying God? And did the eternal Word of God suddenly change when the feminists became vocal? Give it some thought.
     
  10. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    Let me ask you can a woman have authority of over a man out side of church. Are there two sets of rules for us one way we act in the church and one way not. If it is as straightforward as you claim a woman would never be allowed to have any authority over a man, a christian woman any ways, inside or out side the church. Now do you think that is God's will?

    People in the south in America used the Bible to say Jesus endorsed slavery when He said slaves obey your master. They used this passage to justifies having Black salves, now we know that is wrong and God is against slavery, we also know what these people were like, they raped their slaves, they beat them, starved them, worked them to death in some cases. These were no men of God. What will history reveal about those who say women can not hold leadership in the church?
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    If Scripture regarding the role of men and women in the church is 'straightforward' and is 'not subject to misinterpretation', would you please tell me the meaning of v. 15 in this passage because the passage deals with the role of women in the church?
    11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:11-15 ESV, emphasis added).
    Oz
     
  12. Blue Wren

    Blue Wren Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup: You have kept me from becoming completely discouraged here. Thank you. Thank you, to Oz, too.
    I've enjoyed learning from both of you.
     
  13. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    don't get discourage many people preaching that stuff are trained by themselves. It does help when you get formal training. I was against the whole school thing I thought why do I need school to preach, after my first year I was like wow i really have a lot to learn. Then God started showing me things like Jesus per-pared for 30 years for a 3 year ministry. and Paul was a pharisees and had much training with Jews and Romans. We all need to formal study, but some have training and they should know better.

    I am Glad I can help, but I love talking about God. every time I do I draw closer to God and he starts flashing everything I read in the Bible to me. I learn as a i post, and being close to God feels great, it gives me rest from the darkness. So no need to thank me I have my reward already from God. Be thankful to God, He is looking after you. Always.

    blu
     
  14. Metal Minister

    Metal Minister New Year, Still Old School!

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    As was pointed out to you in the sermon I posted (and you ignored for whatever reason) that verse has to do with the rearing and raising of Godly children. John MacArthur said it better, but it basically harkens back to how Eve was deceived first in the fall, and now through the raising of Godly children, eliminates that stigma. I really suggest listening to the sermon. As I said, it answers your questions if you'll take the time. Also, I'm still in the midst of gathering more information for your earlier points, though I'm afraid it will come down to "my scholarly articles/authors versus your scholarly articles/authors".
     
  15. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    that's not straight forward as oz pointed out. It says saved, that is straightforward, but we know salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. I don't know if Paul is but it could be argued that Paul is speaking of Mother Mary here and the birth of Christ.
     
  16. Metal Minister

    Metal Minister New Year, Still Old School!

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    But he isn't. As I said, John MacAurthur's sermon spells how that is in error quite clearly. Note that the passage is in the current tense. Also, note the plurality of the context. I strongly urge folks to listen to the sermon. It answers all these statements and questions.
     
  17. Metal Minister

    Metal Minister New Year, Still Old School!

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    Here's actually a very simple way to get to the bottom of things. The folks here that believe it's ok for women to be Pastors, since you're making a positive statement, provide your best evidence that the bible makes this argument. Provide your best evidence that the word of God says that women can be pastors and hold authority over the church. Then this discussion may get further along.
     
  18. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    I posted Romans is a deacon not higher up than a member of the church? Paul refers to them as coworkers, is a coworker not equal?

    Mary was give perhaps the most important ministry of all the first to announce Jesus was risen from the grave. Did she not have authority over the disciplines at that point? Jesus appointed her to preach He was back. Did Jesus not appoint her as a pastor role to them at that point?
     
  19. Blue Wren

    Blue Wren Well-Known Member

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    People have already posted verses and articles that have relevant scripture. I already shared the link to this article here in response to Jennae and in another thread in this section. I'll post it in full here.

    Christian Ethics Today

    Myth: Baptists Don't Believe In Women Pastors
    By Sheri Adams, Professor of Church History and Theology
    School of Divinity at Gardner-Webb University, NC

    Without a guiding principle, the Bible's teachings on women may appear to be confusing to some people. Only husbands of one wife should be deacons (1 Tim. 3:12), yet Phoebe is a deaconess (Rom. 16:1). Women are not to speak in the church at Corinth (1 Cor. 15:34), yet they are given instructions about praying and prophesying in worship (1 Cor. 11:5ff.). Women are told not to teach or be in authority over men (1 Tim. 2:12), yet women did teach, and at least one woman Priscilla, along with her husband, Aquila, taught a man (Acts 18:26).

    Egalitarian or Submissive

    Baptists, as most other denominations, are divided in their approach to the Bible on the role of women in the church. Some follow a literal interpretation of certain biblical passages and make a case for the submission of women to men in the church. While these Baptists usually insist that women are equal in the sight of God, they believe that God has given men and women different roles in the home and in the church. They interpret Genesis 2 to mean that Eve was created to be Adam's helper and that ancient cultural pattern is applied universally to the present. For these Baptists, Jesus was not overly radical in his treatment of women (notably that he did not select a woman to be an apostle), and Paul taught a clear division of roles that is an inherent part of nature.

    Other Baptists follow an egalitarian perspective. In Galatians 3:27-28, Paul wrote, "As many of you as are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus " (NRSV).1 The "Address to the Public," adopted on May 9, 1991, by the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, asserted:

    We take Galatians as a clue to the way the Church should be ordered. We interpret the reference to women the same way we interpret the reference to slaves. If we have submissive roles for women, we must also have a place for slaves in the Church. In Galatians Paul follows the spirit of Jesus who courageously challenged the conventional wisdom of his day. It was a wisdom with rigid boundaries between men and women in religion and in public life. Jesus deliberately broke those barriers. He called women to follow him; he treated women as equally capable of dealing with sacred issues. Our model for the role of women in matters of faith is the Lord Jesus.2

    Women in Early Baptist Life

    Rosemary Radford Ruether suggests that the acceptance of women in non-traditional roles is often determined by need. For example, in the old West, every pair of hands was needed and valued. Women in that setting had more freedom than their counterparts in the old South. A similar pattern is evident in the New Testament. In Acts, women were disciples of Jesus and active in positions of leadership.3 While doors began to close before the end of the New Testament era, women still were active in public ministry. The subsequent history of the church, however, is a history of women becoming more and more powerless within the developing official hierarchy.

    Baptist beginnings in early seventeenth-century England also illustrate the truth of Ruether's thesis. Baptists drew many of their members from the lower classes. General Baptists especially allowed women deacons. One particularly influential woman was Dorothy Hazzard, who helped form the Broadmead Baptist Church and occasionally preached. Another preacher was a Mrs. Attaway. Richer, established religious groups ridiculed General Baptists for giving women positions of authority. Still, women were actively involved in ministries of all kinds and suffered persecution, imprisonment, and death, just like the men.4

    Particular Baptists were never as open as the General Baptists to the role of women in ministry. As the Baptist faith institutionalized in the late seventeenth century, the views of leaders like John Bunyan prevailed. Because men were made in the image of God, he said, women should not lead worship.

    Baptist Women in America

    In colonial America, Baptists gave no appearance that they were going to take the New World by storm until the First Great Awakening proved to be the catalyst they needed. American Congregationalism divided over the benefits of revival. Some New Light Congregationalists, supporters of revival methods, embraced believer's baptism and entered into Baptist life. Some of these new Baptists, called Separate Baptists, were open to the ministry of women, even women preachers.

    The most famous of these women was Martha Stearns Marshall, sister of Shubal Stearns and wife of Daniel Marshall. Stearns and Marshall were the leaders of the Separate Baptist movement that brought significant growth to Baptists in the South during the late eighteenth century. Martha Stearns was regarded as a powerful preacher. Another Separate Baptist woman, Margaret Clay, was sentenced, but spared the whip, for preaching without a license. Unfortunately, history has forgotten the names of most other women exhorters.5

    Once again, as Baptist work became more official, women's roles diminished. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, women found their greatest avenue for ministry in foreign missions. At first, mission agencies felt that a single woman could manage on a foreign field only with a male counterpart; but once that hurdle was cleared, single women poured out of America to live and work all over the world. For most Baptists, it was a case of "out of sight, out of mind," and they were largely unaware that women performed ministries of all kinds abroad, even planting churches and preaching. According to a popular story, Lottie Moon was once criticized for preaching the gospel to the Chinese. Her retort was that if the mission board wanted to send men to preach, they were welcome to do so, and if the men came, she would stop preaching.

    Ordination

    Northern Baptist records contain evidence of the ordination of women by the late 1880s. Since that time, American Baptist women have served as pastors of churches. A 1985 study revealed that 3 percent of American Baptist pastors and 16 percent of the associate and assistant pastors were women. By 2002, the numbers had continued to increase. American Baptists had 1,049 ordained women (14 percent of the total number of ordained ministers) with 923 serving in local church ministries. Eight percent of American Baptist pastors (373) were women. The role of associate pastor was especially open to women, with 33 percent (207) serving in that capacity.6

    Southern Baptists were much slower to ordain a woman. On August 9, 1964, at Watts Street Baptist Church, Durham, North Carolina, Addie Davis was the first Southern Baptist woman ordained to the pastoral ministry. Throughout the twentieth century, Southern Baptist women were involved in ministries of all kinds, often unpaid and unnoticed. They did, however, run a major mission entity, the Woman's Missionary Union, and discovered there was not a great deal of difference in speaking before hundreds of people and preaching before the same people.

    Close to 2,000 Southern Baptist women (or women with Southern Baptist roots) have been ordained. The majority of these women serve in chaplaincy roles, but many are also associate pastors and even senior pastors. Others are missionaries, teachers, denominational workers, campus ministers, or associational workers.

    Some of these women have found a home with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF). This is especially true since the Southern Baptist Convention defines ministry for women in increasingly narrow terms and rejects women for pastoral ministry. In 2002, the CBF had 40 women on staff. The CBF also had 85 women field personnel, both single and married. Some CBF women are involved in church planting and/or pastoring.7 Other Baptist groups have encouraged women who feel called to the pastorate, including the Alliance of Baptists, Baptist General Conference, and Progressive National Baptists.

    The Future

    The Baptist heritage gives evidence to the call of God upon women for pastoral ministry. While some women saw little or no way to act upon their call, others channeled their pastoral gifts into missions or other kinds of service. A precious few have found churches willing to accept them as pastors.

    The Baptist past reveals that pastoral ministry is often determined more by need than by theology. Churches hesitant to acknowledge the validity of women pastors, but in need of ministerial leadership, have let women speak, but not preach; they have let them deliver a message, but not a sermon; and they have let them plant churches, but not pastor churches. But churches that have experienced the pastoral leadership of dedicated Christian women can attest the truth of the declaration, "in Christ there is neither male nor female."

    Is it true that Baptists do not support women in pastoral ministry? Of course, some Baptists do not, but the Baptist tradition of freedom dispels the myth. Denying and stifling a strong sense of call is as difficult for a woman as it is for a man. Women have preached and served as Baptist pastors, and they will persevere in spite of the opposition as they are called.
     
  20. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    Metal where did you go.

    But 1161 I suffer 2010 5719 not 3756 a woman 1135 to teach 1321 5721, nor 3761 to usurp authority 831 5721 over the man 435, but 235 to be 1511 5750 in 1722 silence 2271.

    strongs:
    Word: auqentew

    Pronounce: ow-then-teh'-o

    Strongs Number: G831

    Orig: from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker); to act of oneself, i.e. (figuratively) dominate:--usurp authority over. G846

    Use: Verb

    Heb Strong:

    1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
    2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
    3) an absolute master
    4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

    do you see that The word usurp. That means to act on ones behalf. so what was Paul saying this.

    I do not let women teach out of there own will, meaning they think a man should do this or church should do this but it is the woman's will not God's. Paul says nothing about a Woman being appointed by God to teach.

    So for that matter men should not usurp authority either for both men and women are to be direct by God and not their own mind. That is what Paul was saying and it apply to both men and women.

    Now metal I listen to your preacher and where are you now.
    For one he says women can not speak in tongues and prophecies, Now those are both spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit, no man better tell a a woman or any one else they can not use the gift which God gives, and there lies the arrogance i hear in your preacher and this shows he has put him self above even The Holy Spirit. and there was women prophets.

    Now he goes on to say it was woman's curse from sin that she should desire to rule over man but man shall rule over her. You can not apply a woman's sin when she has been forgiven and washed clean in the Blood of Christ. Also that preacher is speaking of her sinful nature which Paul says has been put to death and the woman is reborn in Christ. so she no longer obeys those desires they are dead to her, the christian woman any way. so yeah that does not hold water.

    He also says there no woman wrote any part of the Bible well guess what no Gentile wrote any part of the Bible either does that mean Gentiles can not preach?

    your preachers arguments are not from God because if they were they would not fall apart like this.

    I can feel God's anger in me, how do I know its God, because its righteous anger, ever feel that?

    Now i have a bone to pick with you metal, you say metal minister, I take it you like metal music,my son likes it too. What I find interesting is how is it a child of God would like music which glorifies satan?

    Is it christian metal? because that music still does not glorify God i know the energy they scream it with and that is not The Holy Spirit. so how is it you like metal, oh and I would be interested to know what you have to say about all this.

    so there we all understand Paul now, Thanks to God. He meant He did not allow people to teach there own will but they must be appointed by God and do God's will, not there own. thanks.

    Hope this helps blue:D
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
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