Women's pastors?

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Saricharity

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Jennae,

So are you saying that all women in leadership positions in the church among men and women are being disobedient to God?

Why don't you make contact with Billy Graham's daughter, Anne Graham Lotz, and discuss her disobedience by being a woman in ministry. Here are her contact details at: 'Anne Graham Lotz'.

Catherine Mumford Booth was the co-founder of the Salvation Army. Why don't you read her article 'Female ministry or Woman's right to preach the Gospel'?

Oz

If she is in a lead pastor or elder position then yes, she is not obeying scripture.
 
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South Bound

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Jennae,

So are you saying that all women in leadership positions in the church among men and women are being disobedient to God?

Why don't you make contact with Billy Graham's daughter, Anne Graham Lotz, and discuss her disobedience by being a woman in ministry.

I wasn't aware that Anne Graham Lotz was pastor or elder, so I Googled her.

I can't find the name of the church she pastors. Could you please tell us?

Catherine Mumford Booth was the co-founder of the Salvation Army. Why don't you read her article 'Female ministry or Woman's right to preach the Gospel'?

Oz

The Salvation Army is a para church ministry, not a church and founding a ministry is not the same as pastoring a church.
 
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South Bound

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preacher4truth

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OzSpen

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preacher4truth

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Why don't you tell me where N T Wright is a heretic. What reading of N T Wright's heresies have you done?

Frankly you wouldn't be convinced with plain facts. That's apparent reading the responses you've made to others. In your responses you've alluded to your years of experience in ministry. With any due respect this doesn't lend credibility or truth to your interpretations or ministry. In fact it sounds self serving.

I would take a guess that as to the one to whom you are responding you're alluding to N T Wrights NPP and his accusation the church has had it wrong for 2000 years. In this Wright is in fact heretical.
 
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Blue Wren

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These kind of discussions always seem to be circular. One person quotes a verse and uses original languages to say it's Ok for women to hold a position of leadership...and then someone counters with something else. It makes my head spin.

A discussion involves sharing your beliefs. People share scripture that they believe supports women being pastors. Then you and others post scripture that they believe support that not being allowed. I very much believe that God calls women to be pastors. This thread has been discouraging.

My huge fear is how liberal Christianity has become. I am a woman...granted still wet be hind the ears as my grandpa always tells me, but I definitely do not this as being restrictive. God calls pastors to lead and be overseers. It is not an easy road. It is a honour but it's stressful and gut wrenching. Frankly, I can see why God would not call a women to be the Lead pastor or elder in a church...it simply is a draining, emotional and sometimes viotile calling.

God has called many women to be pastors. My own sister feels that call. In the Church of Sweden the highest position in the church is held by a woman who has dedicated her life to serving God and His people. Women are just as capable of handling stressful, gut-wrenching, draining and emotional situations as men. There are women in very high political and military leadership positions making crucial decisions for the world.

My father is often out until the wee hours of the morning. He handles some very messy situations that most women would not be able to handle.

I highly doubt that he handles things women in his position could not. Maybe the women you personally know couldn't handle it, but many others could. I feel pretty confident the stress my mother handles in her job is equal or heavier than what your father handles as a pastor. Many women who are pastors deal with similar stresses to his.

From my point of view, it is a gift from God than men and women have been given special roles. Women are natural nurturers and we excel at children and woman's ministries.

Your view is missing a lot of the big picture then. Many women are not natural nurturers at all, while many men are. Some women excel at children's and women's ministries, but many would not. You're talking more about socially engineered roles. Do you live in a rural area or the city? You already shocked me, so much by your thread about your father the Baptist pastor hitting you. Where I live, that would never be tolerated. I'm just thinking that maybe more of this has to do with cultural differences that shape how we see and understand scripture and gender roles than the Bible itself.

God created us so he knows how we can best utilize our spiritual gifts.
I don't feel like I'm being held back because I will never be a pastor. On the contrary, I feel quite secure in the knowledge that God has this world in His hands.

Yes, exactly. God created us to utilize our spiritual gifts. Many women around the world are doing just that by being pastors.


It is only when we as humans try to push our agendas that things go wrong. Just because God says women cannot be in leadership does not mean our leadership skills cannot and will not be used. There are so many others things we can do. I think women should stop concentrating on what they arent equipped and created to do and start obeying and seeking to do what God has called them to do. We are much more peaceful in our spirits and happier. In fact everyone is much happier when they do what God calls them to do. :).

This is so patronizing. My sister would not be peaceful and happy in her spirits if she was told she couldn't go into ministry as she dreams, because of how someone else interpreted the Bible. Having the same gender parts as you doesn't mean that everyone else thinks like you.

(P.s. If you feel like God is calling you into leadership, then by all means be a leader...just don't disobey scripture. I believe God will speak clearly to your heart if you seek His Will.)

:doh:
If she is in a lead pastor or elder position then yes, she is not obeying scripture.


Correction. It's not obeying the scripture as you interpret it.
 
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OzSpen

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No. She meant she is not obeying Scripture.

How come that others, including myself, do not agree that it is disobedience to Scripture? It's because we have different interpretations.
 
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OzSpen

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I wasn't aware that Anne Graham Lotz was pastor or elder, so I Googled her.

I can't find the name of the church she pastors. Could you please tell us?

The Salvation Army is a para church ministry, not a church and founding a ministry is not the same as pastoring a church.

Anne Graham Lotz is a Christian leader in her own ministry.

As for Catherine Booth, you don't know what you are talking about. The Salvation Army (SA) is a mainstream Christian denomination that started in the UK with William and Catherine Booth and it is prominent here in Australia as a denomination of Christian churches. In fact, my wife was a soldier (a member) in the Salvation Army when I met her. The SA does have a strong social service ministry associated with its churches, but so does any church that takes Matt 25:31-46 seriously.

Here you can read more about the Salvation Army as a Christian Church. I attended SA church services (known as Corp Meetings) when I was living in the USA.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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No thanks. Wright is a heretic.

Phil Johnson debunks Wright's heresies in several sources available on the internet, including What's Wrong With Wright, here:

What?s Wrong with Wright: Examining the New Perspective on Paul by Phil Johnson | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org

I hope you understand what you have done here. You have taken a disagreement over Paul's theology by Wright and applied it to his view of women in ministry. That's committing a Genetic Logical Fallacy. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Let's deal with the issues in Tom Wright's article on women in ministry in the NT on the basis of the content of what he wrote.
 
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DawnStar

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The Salvation Army is a para church ministry, not a church and founding a ministry is not the same as pastoring a church.

The Salvation Army is a denomination and has many houses of worship known as corps sprinkled across the world so yes it is a church in the sense you are referring to. They also have female officers that fulfill the role of pastors among other duties.
 
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OzSpen

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I provided a source.

What criticisms of Wright have you read?

You did not provide me with a critique of what N T Wright taught about women in ministry. You provided me with a link to a critique of Wright on Paul's 'new perspective'. That's not about women in ministry.

As for reading criticisms of Wright, I have read stacks. I'm in the concluding stages of a PhD dissertation (dissertation-only) on the historical Jesus in which I have read a plethora of criticisms of Wright. On my desk right now I have the dialogue between N T Wright and J D Crossan, The Resurrection of Jesus (R B Stewart, ed, 2006, Fortress Press). In that book there are 8 other scholars who critique Wright and Crossan.

Is that enough? But I've read more, including those who critique his view of Paul and justification. Do you need any more evidence?
 
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South Bound

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You did not provide me with a critique of what N T Wright taught about women in ministry. You provided me with a link to a critique of Wright on Paul's 'new perspective'. That's not about women in ministry.

This is a logical fallacy commonly known as "moving the goalposts".

You said "Why don't you tell me where N T Wright is a heretic." Then, once I did, once you realized you've run into someone who has no problem calling your bluff, you now change from "Why don't you tell me where N.T. Wright is a heretic" to You did not provide me with a critique of what N.T. Wright taught about women in ministry."

Please make up your mind.

I certainly hope you handle your doctoral dissertation better than you handle an informal conversation on the internet.

As far as I'm concerned, once he's exposed as a heretic regarding justification, his opinions on women pastors is irrelevant.

Is that enough? But I've read more, including those who critique his view of Paul and justification. Do you need any more evidence?

"Evidence" for what?
 
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OzSpen

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This is a logical fallacy commonly known as "moving the goalposts".

You said "Why don't you tell me where N T Wright is a heretic." Then, once I did, once you realized you've run into someone who has no problem calling your bluff, you now change from "Why don't you tell me where N.T. Wright is a heretic" to You did not provide me with a critique of what N.T. Wright taught about women in ministry."

Please make up your mind.

I certainly hope you handle your doctoral dissertation better than you handle an informal conversation on the internet.

As far as I'm concerned, once he's exposed as a heretic regarding justification, his opinions on women pastors is irrelevant.

"Evidence" for what?

I suggest you take a read of a description of 'Moving the Goal Posts' logical fallacy and then you will see that that was not the case in what I provided in my response.

Instead, you committed the genetic logical fallacy, which I've shown you already.

To this point you have shown me nowhere where N T Wright is a heretic with his view of women in ministry. No critique of his view has been presented here by you.
 
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South Bound

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OzSpen said:
To this point you have shown me nowhere where N T Wright is a heretic with his view of women in ministry.

You're right. I didn't. That's because I never made such a claim.

No critique of his view has been presented here by you.

I provided a source. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it is up to you.
 
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OzSpen

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You're right. I didn't. That's because I never made such a claim.

I provided a source. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it is up to you.

Back in #105 I wrote:

Originally Posted by OzSpen
Why don't you take a read of this article by N T Wright that I've only accessed this afternoon? [of women in ministry.

You responded:
No thanks. Wright is a heretic.

Phil Johnson debunks Wright's heresies in several sources available on the internet, including What's Wrong With Wright, here:

What?s Wrong with Wright: Examining the New Perspective on Paul by Phil Johnson | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org

You DID make such a claim by linking Wright's view on the 'New Perspective on Paul' with Wright's view of women in ministry. The genetic logical fallacy was committed by you.

We cannot have a logical conversation when you do this.
:wave:
 
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