Women's pastors?

[Bluelion]

I think I did get your point. I do understand what you are saying. I just disagree.

I don't know as much as my father about the scriptures. He studies it more than I do obviously. I just know that my dad believes scripture is very clear on leadership in the church. Our church has a very clear guidelines set up based on scripture.

leadership in the church is Jesus, the church being the body of Christ. Now there are different body parts as Paul points out, but Jesus is the head. While some might have a role which seems to point to them as a leader they are not Jesus is. All people in the church are servants and elders are there to serve the congregation as Jesus served, they are to be like Jesus we all are. The only one with power in the church is Jesus, Not even Paul had power in the church, but had authority in Christ. I would urge you to explore these concepts.

 

[Blue Wren]

So do you know the rules of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek grammar so that you are able to translate from these languages into English? Does the Holy Spirit tell people the meaning of these 3 biblical languages so that they can translate into English, but without learning the grammar?

I think there will be gaps in your understanding if you don't allow for God giving certain of his gifted people the ability to translate from biblical languages into English - and this is through grammar that they have learned.

I'd be interested in knowing how many people on this forum learned Greek and Hebrew grammar from the Holy Spirit and were able to translate these languages without learning the languages.

I had overlooked this earlier. It has good points.

I'm fairly new to being a Christian, after growing up in secular Sweden. I have to say that it's Biblical scholars who helped me to understand and fall in love with the Bible. The first time I read it, it was not a positive experience at all. I think, if you read the Bible as a teen, you will have a very different reaction to it than if you had grown up since infancy learning about the Bible and already had your way of thoughts programmed by it. I spent a summer visiting family in the US and it was their pastor (who was a woman) who did such a good job bringing the scripture to life and giving me understanding of it. She is very gifted at languages and really took time explaining the original meanings of words. That changed the meaning of entire scriptures.

 

[OzSpen]

I had overlooked this earlier. It has good points.

I'm fairly new to being a Christian, after growing up in secular Sweden. I have to say that it's Biblical scholars who helped me to understand and fall in love with the Bible. The first time I read it, it was not a positive experience at all. I think, if you read the Bible as a teen, you will have a very different reaction to it than if you had grown up since infancy learning about the Bible and already had your way of thoughts programmed by it. I spent a summer visiting family in the US and it was their pastor (who was a woman) who did such a good job bringing the scripture to life and giving me understanding of it. She is very gifted at languages and really took time explaining the original meanings of words. That changed the meaning of entire scriptures.

Blue Wren,

I also live in a very secular Australia. However, I thank that Lord that I was converted to Christ in my teens and have spent many years growing in my faith - 50 years, in fact. That has helped greatly in coming to an in-depth understanding of some of the issues regarding the role of women in public ministry.

I suppose you've seen some of the emotive language used by some of the posts in this thread against women pastors. There are many Baptists here in Australia who ordain women pastors.

Oz

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

leadership in the church is Jesus, the church being the body of Christ. Now there are different body parts as Paul points out, but Jesus is the head. While some might have a role which seems to point to them as a leader they are not Jesus is. All people in the church are servants and elders are there to serve the congregation as Jesus served, they are to be like Jesus we all are. The only one with power in the church is Jesus, Not even Paul had power in the church, but had authority in Christ. I would urge you to explore these concepts.

Bluelion,

Yet Paul, who 'had authority in Christ' (your language) wrote:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (1 Tim 2:12-15 ESV).

If we are to deal with women in pastoral ministry, we can't just brush these verses aside. They need a careful interpretation. What is your interpretation of these verses?

Oz

 

[Blue Wren]

Blue Wren,

I also live in a very secular Australia. However, I thank that Lord that I was converted to Christ in my teens and have spent many years growing in my faith - 50 years, in fact. That has helped greatly in coming to an in-depth understanding of some of the issues regarding the role of women in public ministry.

I suppose you've seen some of the emotive language used by some of the posts in this thread against women pastors. There are many Baptists here in Australia who ordain women pastors.

Oz

Oz

That's great, Oz! I also became a Christian in my teens. Hopefully in 50 years I'll still be alive and a devout Christian.
I'm brand-new to being a Baptist. That is probably why this section, it has been so startling to me. My family I'm staying with while I'm in the US, the ones who brought me to church where the pastor I wrote about above helped me to become a Christian, are Methodist / Presbyterian. I was baptized at a Methodist church, by that woman, in 2010. When I returned to Sweden I had a weird church life because I went to Catholic church and a Church of Sweden. I went to the Catholic church during the week because it was the only one near me that still regularly had people in the pews. Of course they do not ordain women, but many in the parish are actually are advocating for women to become ordained into priesthood. I went to a Church of Sweden on the weekends.

A woman, Antje Jackelén, was elected as the Archbishop of the Church of Sweden this year. It's a huge point of pride to me. My younger sister has also become a Christian recently. She feels called to go into ministry one day.

I've just started attending a Baptist church here in the US recently, after being invited by friends. The church I go to here has has women pastors in the past but right now there's a man. I went looking for information about it tonight and found some materials for why they believe in ordaining women:

Women In Ministry | American Baptist Churches USA

 

[98cwitr]

My sister in law is the head pastor at a Baptist church, has her doctorate, and has been ordained for quite some time now. Gotta realize that the "head" of the church is Christ, the rest are His servants. The authoritative body in the church nowadays though isn't the pastor, it's the Board of Directors.

If you're gonna take Paul's message to Corinth literally, then you shouldnt allow your women to speak in church at all...as for me, I believe God may in fact have called her into ministry. As for the consequences of that, then they remain to be seen. If all authorities are put in place by God, then why are their women in high ranking government positions who can hold positions of authority over men if He so has a problem with it? Let us be equally yoked, no matter our sex.

On the flipside of this issue, I agree that most churches that are allowing women pastors are so liberal that they're on the verge of idolatry.

 

[Metal Minister]

Except that there were female overseers in the form of deaconesses:

Deaconess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ringo

Do you know what the historical role of a deacon is?
http://www.baptiststart.com/print/role_of_deacons.html

"New Testament Deacons serve the Lord by conducting the caring ministry of the church-doing the benevolence work, visiting the sick, being alert to the spiritual needs of the congregation-for the purposes of freeing the pastoral staff to focus on prayer and the ministry of the Word, promoting unity within the church, and facilitating the spread of the gospel...

Three facts stand out:[bless and do not curse]
1. Deacons and Elders are the offices in the church. The offices are distinct. Elders are not deacons. Deacons are not elders.
2. The terms, Elder, Pastor (shepherd), and Overseer (bishop) are used synonymously in the New Testament.
3. In the New Testament, elders had the role of the general oversight of the church.

In the original language, the word,Deacon, means[bless and do not curse]Servant
The title itself, is as descriptive as any job description could be. In the Bible, words have meanings and the word "deacon" means servant. Here is how the word has been defined in its various forms:

"Diakoneo[bless and do not curse]and its derivatives, as their etymology suggests, are used mainly for personal help to others."

"Diakonia[bless and do not curse]is found 34 times in the NT. It means service at the table in Lk. 10:40; Acts 6:1, etc."

"Diakanos[bless and do not curse]is found 29 times in the NT. Its primary meaning is one who serves at tables."

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you know what the historical role of a deacon is?
The Biblical Role of Deacons

"New Testament Deacons serve the Lord by conducting the caring ministry of the church-doing the benevolence work, visiting the sick, being alert to the spiritual needs of the congregation-for the purposes of freeing the pastoral staff to focus on prayer and the ministry of the Word, promoting unity within the church, and facilitating the spread of the gospel...

Three facts stand out:[bless and do not curse]
1. Deacons and Elders are the offices in the church. The offices are distinct. Elders are not deacons. Deacons are not elders.
2. The terms, Elder, Pastor (shepherd), and Overseer (bishop) are used synonymously in the New Testament.
3. In the New Testament, elders had the role of the general oversight of the church.

In the original language, the word,Deacon, means[bless and do not curse]Servant
The title itself, is as descriptive as any job description could be. In the Bible, words have meanings and the word "deacon" means servant. Here is how the word has been defined in its various forms:

"Diakoneo[bless and do not curse]and its derivatives, as their etymology suggests, are used mainly for personal help to others."

"Diakonia[bless and do not curse]is found 34 times in the NT. It means service at the table in Lk. 10:40; Acts 6:1, etc."

"Diakanos[bless and do not curse]is found 29 times in the NT. Its primary meaning is one who serves at tables."

Good. Now, part of the problem is the transliteration of the word. It is better translated 'servant' instead of 'deacon' imo. If this were the case there wouldn't be the mix-up of calling Phoebe a deacon as if she held the official office. She didn't. She was a servant in the church.

Diakonos (deacon) has lent itself to several problems as persons assume in instances it is used it must refer to the official biblical office. Another issue with the office is that most who hold the office that I've met see their office as being church boss, not as servants.

Paul is often accused of being against women (due to culture &c) and passages where it is plain that the offices of elder and deacon are to be held by men are used to argue their opinion onto Paul. Then some of the same who accuse Paul would take Romans 16:1 mentioning Phoebe as a servant (diakanos) as proof that the office was held by women. That's a poor and inconsistent hermeneutic.

 

[Metal Minister]

Good. Now, part of the problem is the transliteration of the word. It is better translated 'servant' instead of 'deacon' imo. If this were the case there wouldn't be the mix-up of calling Phoebe a deacon as if she held the official office. She didn't. She was a servant in the church.

Diakonos (deacon) has lent itself to several problems as persons assume in instances it is used it must refer to the official biblical office. Another issue with the office is that most who hold the office that I've met see their office as being church boss, not as servants.

Paul is often accused of being against women (due to culture &c) and passages where it is plain that the offices of elder and deacon are to be held by men are used to argue their opinion onto Paul. Then some of the same who accuse Paul would take Romans 16:1 mentioning Phoebe as a servant (diakanos) as proof that the office was held by women. That's a poor and inconsistent hermeneutic.

I completely agree with what you've posted. I was just trying to explain to Ringo that the role of a deacon is subservient to the church and the elders, because it appeared he was trying to make a statement that a deacon was a position of authority.

 

[preacher4truth]

I completely agree with what you've posted. I was just trying to explain to Ringo that the role of a deacon is subservient to the church and the elders, because it appeared he was trying to make a statement that a deacon was a position of authority.

Yes, I understood what you were doing and I agreed with it as well. Thanks.

 

[Ringo84]

Do you know what the historical role of a deacon is?
The Biblical Role of Deacons

"New Testament Deacons serve the Lord by conducting the caring ministry of the church-doing the benevolence work, visiting the sick, being alert to the spiritual needs of the congregation-for the purposes of freeing the pastoral staff to focus on prayer and the ministry of the Word, promoting unity within the church, and facilitating the spread of the gospel...

Three facts stand out:[bless and do not curse]
1. Deacons and Elders are the offices in the church. The offices are distinct. Elders are not deacons. Deacons are not elders.
2. The terms, Elder, Pastor (shepherd), and Overseer (bishop) are used synonymously in the New Testament.
3. In the New Testament, elders had the role of the general oversight of the church.

In the original language, the word,Deacon, means[bless and do not curse]Servant
The title itself, is as descriptive as any job description could be. In the Bible, words have meanings and the word "deacon" means servant. Here is how the word has been defined in its various forms:

"Diakoneo[bless and do not curse]and its derivatives, as their etymology suggests, are used mainly for personal help to others."

"Diakonia[bless and do not curse]is found 34 times in the NT. It means service at the table in Lk. 10:40; Acts 6:1, etc."

"Diakanos[bless and do not curse]is found 29 times in the NT. Its primary meaning is one who serves at tables."

I never claimed that deacon was equivalent to elder. However, it's pretty clear that deaconesses had leadership roles in the early church. So much, then, for the assertion that women can't be leaders.
Ringo.

 

[Metal Minister]

I never claimed that deacon was equivalent to elder. However, it's pretty clear that deaconesses had leadership roles in the early church. So much, then, for the assertion that women can't be leaders.
Ringo.

Are you always this purposefully obtuse? Please READ what has been presented and subsequent posts.

 

[OzSpen]

Blue Wren,

That's great, Oz! I also became a Christian in my teens. Hopefully in 50 years I'll still be alive and a devout Christian.
I'm brand-new to being a Baptist. That is probably why this section, it has been so startling to me. My family I'm staying with while I'm in the US, the ones who brought me to church where the pastor I wrote about above helped me to become a Christian, are Methodist / Presbyterian. I was baptized at a Methodist church, by that woman, in 2010. When I returned to Sweden I had a weird church life because I went to Catholic church and a Church of Sweden. I went to the Catholic church during the week because it was the only one near me that still regularly had people in the pews. Of course they do not ordain women, but many in the parish are actually are advocating for women to become ordained into priesthood. I went to a Church of Sweden on the weekends.

A woman, Antje Jackelén, was elected as the Archbishop of the Church of Sweden this year. It's a huge point of pride to me. My younger sister has also become a Christian recently. She feels called to go into ministry one day.

I've just started attending a Baptist church here in the US recently, after being invited by friends. The church I go to here has has women pastors in the past but right now there's a man. I went looking for information about it tonight and found some materials for why they believe in ordaining women:

Women In Ministry | American Baptist Churches USA

I notice that your link is to American Baptist Churches USA. When my wife, children and I lived in the USA and Canada for 7 years, we noted that the American Baptist Churches tended to have more churches and preachers of theological liberal persuasion - with a lower view of the Bible. I wouldn't expect these to be too adamant about what the Bible says about women pastors. Some Baptist churches with a higher view of biblical authority object to female pastors, particularly when I Cor 12-14 and 1 Tim 2:12-15 are in the mix.

I'm not of that persuasion. I have a high view of Scripture but my exegesis of Scripture in context does not support an absolute silence of women in ministry - even mixed ministry to men and women.

Mission work around the world would be in a sad state if women missionaries were prevented from ministering publicly to women AND men. I've seen situations where conservative Western congregations have a very strict view of women missionaries not allowed to minister publicly in a mixed congregation when they return home on furlough, but when these same women return to the mission fields, it is straight back into mixed ministry. I find that to be hypocritical. If it is good enough for mixed ministry in Africa, it surely is good enough for mixed ministry in Australia.

The issue does get down to biblical interpretation and I'm of the view that for too long women have been silenced in ministry because of a skewed understanding of certain Scriptures.

Just one example: It is claimed in some churches that women must be absolutely silent in public ministry to a mixed congregation because 1 Cor 14:33b-34 states, 'As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission as the Law also says' (ESV).

How is it possible to have women to 'keep silent in the churches' when the very same book of 1 Corinthians 11:4 speaks of 'every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head' (ESV). The context is wives (who are women) prophesying in the church publicly. Women can't prophesy with their mouths shut. We either have a contradiction (which I don't think it is) between 1 Cor 14:33b-34 and 1 Cor 11:4 or we have the 'silence' of women in 1 Cor 14 to be addressing a different issue in the Corinthian church.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Ringo84]

In the Byzantine church women deacons had both liturgical and pastoral functions within the church.[2] These women also ministered to other women in a variety of ways, including instructing catechumens, assisting with women’s baptisms and welcoming women into the church services.[23] They also mediated between members of the church, and they cared for the physical, emotional and spiritual needs of the imprisoned and the persecuted.[24] They were sent to women who were housebound due to illness or childbirth. They performed the important sacramental duty of conducting the physical anointing and baptism of women. Ordination to the diaconate was also appropriate for those responsible for the women’s choir, a liturgical duty. Evidence in the Vita Sanctae Macrinae (or Life of St. Macrina) shows that Lampadia was responsible for the women's choir. Some believe that they were also presiders of the Eucharist, but this practice was seen as invalid.[25]

Deaconess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ringo

 

[Metal Minister]

Deaconess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ringo

*sigh* please stop posting Wikipedia articles which do not have a thing to do with the verses at hand. Especially when I gave you a link to an actual Baptist website which spells out both the historical/biblical meaning of deacon. A deacon is a servant of the church, there is no authority there. Period. They are to help the Elders (pastors/bishops/etc) and hold no authority in the church. I know you may not like that, but forcing the scriptures into a subservient role to a current social norm is not the way to go. God's word must be first, and must be held as immutable, or you negate the entire thing. If you can start changing or ignoring verses as "society demands", before long, the way to salvation is erased and people remain fallen in ignorance.

 

[Ringo84]

You say that deacons had no leadership role, Wikipedia says that historically, they did. Who am I to believe? I know Wikipedia has a reputation for not always being the most trustworthy source for serious research, but in this case, I find the entry on female deacons more persuasive than Baptist texts trying to rationalize away the lack of women in leadership roles.
Ringo

 

[Job8]

It's Unbiblical, but because Baptist churches are autonomous, it's their choice

It is unbiblical to have female pastors and teachers, and it is not really "their choice". The Scriptures are very clear about women preaching and teaching in the churches or usurping authority over men. Choosing to violate Scripture is called "disobedience".

Autonomy simply means that each local church must be governed from within -- not from without -- and under the authority of Christ and the Holy Spirit. That puts an even greater responsibility on the local church.

Every Christian who attends a church which is in any violation of Scripture has the moral responsibility and duty to speak up. If there is no repentance, then the only other choice is to move on.

 

[Ringo84]

"Usurping authority over men". It makes it sound like men are such insecure babies that they can't handle a strong woman with power.

I suspect that probably accounts for at least a portion of the opposition to women leaders in the church.
Ringo

 

[OzSpen]

*sigh* please stop posting Wikipedia articles which do not have a thing to do with the verses at hand. Especially when I gave you a link to an actual Baptist website which spells out both the historical/biblical meaning of deacon. A deacon is a servant of the church, there is no authority there. Period. They are to help the Elders (pastors/bishops/etc) and hold no authority in the church. I know you may not like that, but forcing the scriptures into a subservient role to a current social norm is not the way to go. God's word must be first, and must be held as immutable, or you negate the entire thing. If you can start changing or ignoring verses as "society demands", before long, the way to salvation is erased and people remain fallen in ignorance.

Metal,

What about apostles after the time of the 12 apostles? Do they have authority in the church?

Let's examine Romans 16:7. This verse reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (ESV). The NIV translates as: “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse.

Literally, the Greek reads, word-for-word (English translation): “Greet Andronicus and Junia/the kinsmen of me and fellow-captives of me who are notable among/in/by the apostles who also before me have been in Christ.”


The controversy surrounds the gender of Junia, relating to the phrase, “among the apostles.” If Junia is feminine and she is among the apostles, this makes her a female apostle.


So is Junia a male or female apostle?


Oz

 

[Metal Minister]

Metal,

What about apostles after the time of the 12 apostles? Do they have authority in the church?

Let's examine Romans 16:7. This verse reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (ESV). The NIV translates as: “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse.

Literally, the Greek reads, word-for-word (English translation): “Greet Andronicus and Junia/the kinsmen of me and fellow-captives of me who are notable among/in/by the apostles who also before me have been in Christ.”


The controversy surrounds the gender of Junia, relating to the phrase, “among the apostles.” If Junia is feminine and she is among the apostles, this makes her a female apostle.

So is Junia a male or female apostle?

Oz

I'll be honest, I don't know Greek (though I wish I did!) So I can't claim any knowledge on that one way or the other. However, if you're stating that Junia is a female apostle and held a position of authority, it would contradict Paul's own words that state a woman should not be in a position of authority. He does not qualify the statement by saying "in your church" or "in your province", etc, but simply "I do not allow a woman to..." So now you must ask, where was Paul correct, or incorrect. Where was he inspired, or not inspired. Is this a contradiction, or not?