Women's pastors?

[OzSpen]

Then I would say that it's not unbiblical for a woman to be a pastor.
Ringo

Why don't you provide us with your biblical reasons to support this statement?

 

[Bluelion]

Can you post the Biblical reasons to support your statements?

I'll answer that challenge brother least.

his whole argument is on Paul, but Paul said this Romans 16 NLT.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon in the church in Cenchrea. 2 Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God’s people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.

3 Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus. 4 In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches. 5 Also give my greetings to the church that meets in their home.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus. He was the first person from the province of Asia to become a follower of Christ. 6 Give my greetings to Mary, who has worked so hard for your benefit. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia,[a] my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10 Greet Apelles, a good man whom Christ approves. And give my greetings to the believers from the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.[c] Greet the Lord’s people from the household of Narcissus. 12 Give my greetings to Tryphena and Tryphosa, the Lord’s workers, and to dear Persis, who has worked so hard for the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, whom the Lord picked out to be his very own; and also his dear mother, who has been a mother to me.

14 Give my greetings to Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers and sisters[d] who meet with them. 15 Give my greetings to Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and to Olympas and all the believers[e] who meet with them. 16 Greet each other with a sacred kiss. All the churches of Christ send you their greetings.

This passage clearly shows women were in ministry Paul even refers to some as His coworkers, That means equal to Paul.

So twin you want to tell me more about how I don't believe the Bible, because i believe you misunderstand Paul.

Here is a thought the south used the Bible to justice why black men and women should be slaves, they refer to Jesus telling slaves to submit to there masters. Now anyone can see slavery is wrong, and God did not support it as they claim, why else would He free Israel if He supported it. The women issue is no different than the slavery issue, people miss understand the Bible and commit great offenses in God's name.

A woman Mary was appointed to go tell the disciples Jesus was alive and back as He said He would be. A woman was given charge to spread and preach fulfillment of Jesus purpose here on earth, Not a man but a woman. I think that shows they can minister and did as Paul names his friends and Fellow "coworkers".

 

[Ringo84]

Amen, bluelion.

I would hasten to add that the oft-quoted verse that says, in part, that "Adam was formed first, then Eve" utilizes poor logic to support its views. If creation order is a criterion for "importance" (for lack of a better term), then animals would be above humans, as they were created first.

There's also the fact that Adam and Eve (assuming either one of them ever actually existed) were both equally deceived. One is not "less guilty" than another. If that were the case, one would have been allowed to stay in the Garden instead of God kicking them both out for their sins.

I tend to believe that the Adam and Eve story is not literal history but a story handed down generation to generation. Whether Eve is more guilty than Adam or the order of creation is less important than the fact that it is an allegorical story about sin and how it separates us from God.
Ringo

 

[Bluelion]

Amen, bluelion.

I would hasten to add that the oft-quoted verse that says, in part, that "Adam was formed first, then Eve" utilizes poor logic to support its views. If creation order is a criterion for "importance" (for lack of a better term), then animals would be above humans, as they were created first.

There's also the fact that Adam and Eve (assuming either one of them ever actually existed) were both equally deceived. One is not "less guilty" than another. If that were the case, one would have been allowed to stay in the Garden instead of God kicking them both out for their sins.

I tend to believe that the Adam and Eve story is not literal history but a story handed down generation to generation. Whether Eve is more guilty than Adam or the order of creation is less important than the fact that it is an allegorical story about sin and how it separates us from God.
Ringo

I thought God said man and woman he created them both in His image? that would suggest equal.

 

[Bluelion]

NLT Gen1: 27

So God created human beings[d] in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

KJV
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

ASB
27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Sure seems like God said they were equal from the very start.

 

[Blue Wren]

I'll answer that challenge brother least.

his whole argument is on Paul, but Paul said this Romans 16 NLT.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deacon in the church in Cenchrea. 2 Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God’s people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.

3 Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus. 4 In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches. 5 Also give my greetings to the church that meets in their home.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus. He was the first person from the province of Asia to become a follower of Christ. 6 Give my greetings to Mary, who has worked so hard for your benefit. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia,[a] my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10 Greet Apelles, a good man whom Christ approves. And give my greetings to the believers from the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.[c] Greet the Lord’s people from the household of Narcissus. 12 Give my greetings to Tryphena and Tryphosa, the Lord’s workers, and to dear Persis, who has worked so hard for the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, whom the Lord picked out to be his very own; and also his dear mother, who has been a mother to me.

14 Give my greetings to Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers and sisters[d] who meet with them. 15 Give my greetings to Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and to Olympas and all the believers[e] who meet with them. 16 Greet each other with a sacred kiss. All the churches of Christ send you their greetings.

This passage clearly shows women were in ministry Paul even refers to some as His coworkers, That means equal to Paul.

So twin you want to tell me more about how I don't believe the Bible, because i believe you misunderstand Paul.

Here is a thought the south used the Bible to justice why black men and women should be slaves, they refer to Jesus telling slaves to submit to there masters. Now anyone can see slavery is wrong, and God did not support it as they claim, why else would He free Israel if He supported it. The women issue is no different than the slavery issue, people miss understand the Bible and commit great offenses in God's name.

A woman Mary was appointed to go tell the disciples Jesus was alive and back as He said He would be. A woman was given charge to spread and preach fulfillment of Jesus purpose here on earth, Not a man but a woman. I think that shows they can minister and did as Paul names his friends and Fellow "coworkers".

Thank you.

 

[Bluelion]

Thank you.

 

[Saricharity]

Bible Qualifications For Pastors:

There are two passages that list qualifications: 1 Tim 3:1-7 & Tit 1:5-9

These qualifications are what all Christian's should strive to meet.
Most churches today will set human standards that ignore Bible directives.

Women are not called to be overseers in the church. Women have many roles but not pastors or elders. A woman may be a pastor of women's and children's ministries.
Just because a women is not called to be an overseer in the church doesn't make her role any less important. Men and women both have very important roles to fulfill...God-given and ordained...equally important but different. When believers follow Gods plan, the church will operate much better. Once we try to manipulate scripture to do what we want, things get out of whack. Scripture is very clear about biblical leadership in the church.

 

[Blue Wren]

Bible Qualifications For Pastors:

There are two passages that list qualifications: 1 Tim 3:1-7 & Tit 1:5-9

These qualifications are what all Christian's should strive to meet.
Most churches today will set human standards that ignore Bible directives.

Women are not called to be overseers in the church. Women have many roles but not pastors or elders. A woman may be a pastor of women's and children's ministries.
Just because a women is not called to be an overseer in the church doesn't make her role any less important. Men and women both have very important roles to fulfill...God-given and ordained...equally important but different. When believers follow Gods plan, the church will operate much better. Once we try to manipulate scripture to do what we want, things get out of whack. Scripture is very clear about biblical leadership in the church.

If 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and 1 Titus 1:5-9 are used as the qualifications for leadership, then neither Paul nor Jesus would be qualified to be overseers since neither were married. You cannot use that as a justification for male leadership when it excludes our Lord and Savior. Those verses were very much reflective of the time and place when the letters were written. You need to do some studying on the historical context. They do not reflect God's timeless will for his church and for women.

What are you are stating is based more on cultural tradition than scripture. Many Biblical scholars disagree with you and are dedicated to following the Bible's plan as you claim to be. Thankfully, traditions are changing and most churches and most welcome women who are called into ministry. We should all use our God-given gifts to serve the Lord the best we can.

 

[Saricharity]

All we have is scripture to discern what we are to do. Scripture is very clear on how we are to pick leadership in the church. Jesus is God. We cannot compare His ministry to ours now. That would be opening a whole can of worms in so many areas. Did Paul have this scripture to reference? Paul was chosen by God. Can anyone else say God spoke to them...changed their name? Had it recorded and documented in scripture?
God has given us the holy scriptures to govern our lives. People spend too much time looking for excuses to overlook scripture. It doesn't need to be so complicated.

 

[Metal Minister]

If 1 Timothy 3:1-7 is used as the qualifications for leadership, then neither Paul nor Jesus would be qualified to be overseers since neither were married.

You cannot use that as a justification for male leadership when it excludes our Lord and Savior.

One is the Son of God, the other was a widower. Also, the mention of "husband of one wife" was to mean that they could not be divorced and remarried, or a polygamist.

 

[Blue Wren]

One is the Son of God, the other was a widower. Also, the mention of "husband of one wife" was to mean that they could not be divorced and remarried, or a polygamist.

Still, if you're going to use those verses as reasons it would exclude Jesus. Yes, he was the Son of God, but he walked the Earth and led his ministry as a man. He most certainly could have married if He'd felt that it was a necessary qualification. There are not unequivocal verses stating that Paul was a widower instead of a man who never married. I know there are those who believe he was.

Those verses have much more to do with the traditions at the time than God's timeless will. Look at how much trust Paul had in female leaders like Phoebe. He was making concessions to the cultural norms of that time.

 

[Saricharity]

If 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and 1 Titus 1:5-9 are used as the qualifications for leadership, then neither Paul nor Jesus would be qualified to be overseers since neither were married. You cannot use that as a justification for male leadership when it excludes our Lord and Savior. Those verses were very much reflective of the time and place when the letters were written. You need to do some studying on the historical context. They do not reflect God's timeless will for his church and for women.

What are you are stating is based more on cultural tradition than scripture. Many Biblical scholars disagree with you and are dedicated to following the Bible's plan as you claim to be. Thankfully, traditions are changing and most churches and most welcome women who are called into ministry. We should all use our God-given gifts to serve the Lord the best we can.

I attend a Baptist church and my father is a pastor. I have studied the historical context. I just disagree with you. Scripture is constantly be misconstrued by people all the time. God is not a God of confusion. The bible is a book for today and it's timeless. We do not need bible scholars to interpret it for us. God gave each believer the Holy Spirit to help us discern scripture. It is a living book. I'm learning more each time I read it. It doesn't have to be complicated.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I attend a Baptist church and my father is a pastor. I have studied the historical context. I just disagree with you. Scripture is constantly be misconstrued by people all the time. God is not a God of confusion. The bible is a book for today and it's timeless. We do not need bible scholars to interpret it for us. God gave each believer the Holy Spirit to help us discern scripture. It is a living book. I'm learning more each time I read it. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Jennae: The Bible does not mean anything different today from what it did 50 years ago.

 

[Saricharity]

Also, Jesus did not pastor a church. The organized church body did not begin until after Jesus ascended. Scripture gave us clear directions on how to pick leadership. You cannot compare Jesus's ministry to the organized church of today.

 

[Saricharity]

Jennae: The Bible does not mean anything different today from what it did 50 years ago.

I agree. Or 100 years ago. Or the day it was written.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I agree. Or 100 years ago. Or the day it was written.

Well, exactly!

 

[OzSpen]

We do not need bible scholars to interpret it for us. God gave each believer the Holy Spirit to help us discern scripture. It is a living book. I'm learning more each time I read it. It doesn't have to be complicated.

So do you know the rules of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek grammar so that you are able to translate from these languages into English? Does the Holy Spirit tell people the meaning of these 3 biblical languages so that they can translate into English, but without learning the grammar?

I think there will be gaps in your understanding if you don't allow for God giving certain of his gifted people the ability to translate from biblical languages into English - and this is through grammar that they have learned.

I'd be interested in knowing how many people on this forum learned Greek and Hebrew grammar from the Holy Spirit and were able to translate these languages without learning the languages.

 

[Metal Minister]

Still, if you're going to use those verses as reasons it would exclude Jesus. Yes, he was the Son of God, but he walked the Earth and led his ministry as a man. He most certainly could have married if He'd felt that it was a necessary qualification. There are not unequivocal verses stating that Paul was a widower instead of a man who never married. I know there are those who believe he was.

Those verses have much more to do with the traditions at the time than God's timeless will. Look at how much trust Paul had in female leaders like Phoebe. He was making concessions to the cultural norms of that time.

We must either abide by the clear word of God, or bow to current societal pressures. They are mutually exclusive. I've seen the other thread similar to this one, and will respond accordingly there, but here, your arguments do not hold water. The prohibition "husband of one wife" does not mean they must be married. Remember that Paul also said that if a person could remain celibate it was for the best, but not necessary. If that's the case, then he contradicted himself, which is not the case. Proper exegesis shows us that " husband of one wife" was to exclude remarried divorcee's, polygamists, and adulterers, not single men. Trying to twist this to fit a proffered social norm of today does a deep disservice to God's word.

 

[Blue Wren]

I attend a Baptist church and my father is a pastor. I have studied the historical context. I just disagree with you. Scripture is constantly be misconstrued by people all the time. God is not a God of confusion. The bible is a book for today and it's timeless. We do not need bible scholars to interpret it for us. God gave each believer the Holy Spirit to help us discern scripture. It is a living book. I'm learning more each time I read it. It doesn't have to be complicated.

It's wonderful that your father is a Baptist pastor but that doesn't mean his interpretation of the scriptures, and therefore yours as well, are the ones that are absolutely correct without fail. The Bible I read, printed in Swedish, is not how it was originally written nor does it provide all necessary information about the time period it was written in. If everyone agreed with you that all that was necessary to perfectly understand the Bible is to read it and take it absolutely literally, then there wouldn't be divinity schools and theological seminaries and people who dedicate years of their life to learning about scripture.

You are correct that each believer has the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Bible is the living, breathing, growing word of God. That is why I fully believe that God wants us each to make the most of ourselves and our gifts. To use them to glorify God. That means if there are women with the gifts and the abilities to lead a church, then they should. Don't you think women who've been ordained have felt the Holy Spirit compelling them? That the Bible is living is precisely why it's so imperative to understand the historical context of verses. All living things grow. Decrees for the way of life for 2000 years ago may or may not reflect the will of God for those of us living today. None of us follow every verse of the Bible absolutely literally because we recognize what was historical, allegorical, or timeless. You don't own slaves, do you? You recognize those verses reflected the time they were written in, correct?