Women Working Outside the Home

[Tone]

This seems to me like an unrealistic reconstruction of the very early church. We know, for example, that many early believers were slaves who were owned by non-believers; they were not free to live in a "hippie commune" type arrangement, but had to seek out fellowship in their "free" time (which is why Acts records so many evening meetings; because it was after work hours). Nor were they free to participate in an informal sharing economy.

I have no doubt that there was a high degree of informal caring and sharing going on, but we need to be careful not to overstate that reality or read into a first-century situation our own anachronistic reconstructions or imaginings.

As for a Christian's place in the modern economy and world, my argument would be that each of us needs to discern what God has called us to; some of us will be a Christian presence in places where otherwise there would be none. And that is a good thing!

Well, that's why I began with the word "Ideally", because, yeah, as you pointed out, some were slaves (1 Corinthians 7:21), but Paul also said, if you can gain your freedom, go for it (paraphrase). I believe that the Messiah's work resonates into every aspect of human living, including the economy. But, I also believe that He does it through the Church, and it has let it go for far too long, because we have lost sight of the ideal.

 

[Strong in Him]

What I have said doesn't negate this. A Christian community would be a bright light to the world.

Hopefully.
Or it might be seen as a "clique"; a separated group out of touch with reality.
Jesus got alongside people and started from where they were. We are in the world but not of it, and it's not wrong to have a job/career working alongside non Christians.

Well, what do you think congregations are going to have to do when "the mark" is implemented and it will be a clear choice between the beast's economy or Yah's Economy. Remember, the word "economy"...oikonomia (I believe) speaks of the "household"...there is only two of them, one housing the seed of the serpent and the other housing the Seed of the Woman.

No idea - I don't even know that I agree with that interpretation.

Who said anything about sharing one computer?

That's what being in community means - sharing possessions. That's what they did in Acts. (Though not computers, obviously.)

Exactly my point, the funding will be there. Many believers are so tied into the materialism of this age, and it is this, that leads them to worry about money for the cars, the toys, the buildings, the vacations, the retirement, the fashion, the licenses/insurances, the credit, the Christmas shopping, etc....

Money has to come from somewhere.
And I think it rather a sweeping statement to say "most believers ......". Worrying about money to pay the bills/look after the family is not materialism; and how do you know most believers do this anyway?
Possibly there's more temptation in the West, but elsewhere?

I believe that all believer's should live in community.

Most of us do; it's called a family.

Scripture doesn't say to live as individuals in the world, but that we would be one (together), and be in the world.

We can be one with other believers without living with them. Living in the same building/commune doesn't guarantee unity anyway.

First, we are sanctified by His Truth, as given in Scripture. We are in no way set apart by this world's economy. Yes, we (as a group) are sent into the world for one thing only...to be one in the eyes of the world that watches, so that they may see that our economy (household) is from above. Otherwise, if we are just joining in as individuals, the world sees nothing but another peon attempting to make their way up the world's corporate (who's body?) ladder.

I don't know what any of this means.
The early church lived in the world, even though they were in a community. They went to the synagogues and to the temple, they met in other people's houses. Paul went to places where other gods were worshipped - like Ephesus and Athens - and founded churches there, in the middle of them. In Corinth, he worked as a tent maker to get money to support himself, Acts of the Apostles 18:3.

 

[Strong in Him]

Its the same, and a sad truth also, This is why the data says men cheat more then the wife.

And this is due to wemon working in the work force.

Men meet wemon at work usually, not always, but usaly.

And they temp wemon and hit on them because they can.

Sounds like you're saying that if ever a man or a woman has an affair, it's the woman's fault for going to work.

Affairs don't just start in the workplace; a woman could meet someone at the shops, or have an affair with her doctor/postman/dentist/plumber etc etc. I don't see any evidence that having a career and having an affair are linked. My mother worked alongside men every day, and my father alongside women - both were faithful. And that goes for most families that I know/have known.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Sounds like you're saying that if ever a man or a woman has an affair, it's the woman's fault for going to work.

Affairs don't just start in the workplace; a woman could meet someone at the shops, or have an affair with her doctor/postman/dentist/plumber etc etc. I don't see any evidence that having a career and having an affair are linked. My mother worked alongside men every day, and my father alongside women - both were faithful. And that goes for most families that I know/have known.

I never said it was her fault

What I am saying is its the result in most cases.

You mom is the exception, I never said your mom will cheat, I never said all wemon will cheat.

I did say that in this day and age it is one of the biggest reasons why others do cheat, because they meet at work. Its a fact, there is no evidence needed that most people meet at work and then form a relationship then cheat, this is fact.

 

[Paidiske]

People cheat because they decide to cheat. Where they meet someone to cheat with is really not the point. You could keep women in purdah, and it wouldn't eradicate adultery.

 

[Strong in Him]

I never said it was her fault

What I am saying is its the result in most cases.

You mom is the exception, I never said your mom will cheat, I never said all wemon will cheat.

I did say that in this day and age it is one of the biggest reasons why others do cheat, because they meet at work. Its a fact, there is no evidence needed that most people meet at work and then form a relationship then cheat, this is fact.

Well, that's your opinion.
I do not see any evidence that a woman going out to work causes her to have an affair. I don't have a paid job, yet there are many ways I could have an affair if I really wanted to.

I think that women having jobs and going to work, and women having affairs are two separate things.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Well, that's your opinion.
I do not see any evidence that a woman going out to work causes her to have an affair. I don't have a paid job, yet there are many ways I could have an affair if I really wanted to.

I think that women having jobs and going to work, and women having affairs are two separate things.

Like I said, its not something you need proof for, And I will say again, I never said you or your parents.

What I said, ill say it one more time, the ones who do cheat, not the ones who don't cheat.

They cheat with coworkers who they form relationships with.

You are not getting what I am saying, and this is ok, no fault of yours.

I have seen it time and time again at many of the jobs I have had, and this is many.

Every job I have had has had many of the employs cheating because they form work relationships, the temptation gets to them, and they cheat.

They dont want to at first, but when you get to know some one, you get confused and then you cheat.

You are stating that I am saying everyone cheats, and I am not saying this.

 

[Strong in Him]

Like I said, its not something you need proof for, And I will say again, I never said you or your parents.

I never said you did.
I used myself and my family as examples only - several people married and out at work; not one has cheated. I don't believe we are unusual in this.

You are not getting what I am saying, and this is ok, no fault of yours.

I think I am. You're saying that when a woman goes out to work, it increases the likelihood of adultery; either she cheats with the men she works with, or they cheat by hitting on her.

I'm saying that I disagree - that just because a woman goes out to work it does not mean it will result in adultery and divorce.

I have seen it time and time again at many of the jobs I have had, and this is many.

I'm sure that some people are tempted into having affairs - and it's quite possible that they start in the work place.
I'm objecting to the implication that working results in affairs. It may do for some; it doesn't for many. And if you are making the judgement that it's "most", you do need to show some evidence - the reason that you made that judgement.

They dont want to at first, but when you get to know some one, you get confused and then you cheat.

Confused??
As in, "oh dear, I forgot I had a husband and vowed loyalty"?

You are stating that I am saying everyone cheats, and I am not saying this.

I didn't say you were - but you made it sound commonplace, almost automatic.

 

[Danielwright2311]

Confused??
As in, "oh dear, I forgot I had a husband and vowed loyalty"?

No, as in confused I think I have felling's for you, but there not real feelings, there lust feelings.

And if you are making the judgement that it's "most", you do need to show some evidence

No i do not, I can tell you what I have seen, that is my evidence, me, what other evidence would you need? and if I show you some one else evidence does that trump my own experiences?

It may do for some; it doesn't for many.

You are right about that fact, but This was not my point at all.

My point was it can happen, and does, and that is good enough.

I didn't say you were - but you made it sound commonplace, almost automatic.

I never meant to and sorry if you read it this way.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think the fact that some people form inappropriate relationships in the workplace is an argument against women working.

It's an argument against forming inappropriate relationships.

 

[Danielwright2311]

I don't think the fact that some people form inappropriate relationships in the workplace is an argument against women working.

It's an argument against forming inappropriate relationships.

If Paul was alive in this day. he would argue that fact with you.

Paul was against Women working and knew every one had there place.

Its not about a woman working, its about married woman working in the workplace.

And a married woman belongs to her husband, not the workplace.

 

[Paidiske]

If Paul was alive in this day. he would argue that fact with you.

Paul was against Women working and knew every one had there place.

Its not about a woman working, its about married woman working in the workplace.

And a married woman belongs to her husband, not the workplace.

I disagree! Paul encouraged all to work, and women to be busy at home; in order to understand this, you need to realise that in the ancient world the home was the workplace. It's not until the industrial revolution that home and work become separated in the way that we're used to.

So Paul wanted both spouses to be contributing members of their household, and was not specifying in excruciating detail how that was to play out. He was not expressing an opinion on the modern workplace, which didn't yet exist.

Nobody "belongs" to their workplace.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Its the same, and a sad truth also, This is why the data says men cheat more then the wife.

And this is due to wemon working in the work force.

I did say that in this day and age it is one of the biggest reasons why others do cheat, because they meet at work. Its a fact, there is no evidence needed that most people meet at work and then form a relationship then cheat, this is fact.

People who want to cheat will cheat - we can't blame women for leaving the house "tempting" them into this. The heart of the cheater is already there for the most part. And I'm not sure of these statistics that most cheating is from working together? I would think that was more through friend hookups, bars, weekend escapades.

As for women in the workforce, do what works for your personality that God gave you, what works for your family, and what you have to. In this day and age a lot of women don't have a choice when it comes to working outside the house even if some wished to stay home.

 

[Danielwright2311]

I disagree! Paul encouraged all to work, and women to be busy at home; in order to understand this, you need to realise that in the ancient world the home was the workplace. It's not until the industrial revolution that home and work become separated in the way that we're used to.

So Paul wanted both spouses to be contributing members of their household, and was not specifying in excruciating detail how that was to play out. He was not expressing an opinion on the modern workplace, which didn't yet exist.

Nobody "belongs" to their workplace.

I disagree,

Paul said clearly What the rules where for men and women and yes, they had fishermen, tax collectors and officers, guards men, kings and queens, Sells man who set up stands and sold food and wheres and there where people who delivered goods and also there was cooks and maids and even slaves.

So. when you read the whole bible, you can see how any jobs there where, even before Jesus time there was many jobs and during.

So then Every job stated in the bible was not a job?

And all the jobs other then a seamstress was done by a man.

 

[Danielwright2311]

People who want to cheat will cheat - we can't blame women for leaving the house "tempting" them into this. The heart of the cheater is already there for the most part. And I'm not sure of these statistics that most cheating is from working together? I would think that was more through friend hookups, bars, weekend escapades.

As for women in the workforce, do what works for your personality that God gave you, what works for your family, and what you have to. In this day and age a lot of women don't have a choice when it comes to working outside the house even if some wished to stay home.

 

[Paidiske]

I disagree,

Paul said clearly What the rules where for men and women and yes, they had fishermen, tax collectors and officers, guards men, kings and queens, Sells man who set up stands and sold food and wheres and there where people who delivered goods and also there was cooks and maids and even slaves.

So. when you read the whole bible, you can see how any jobs there where, even before Jesus time there was many jobs and during.

So then Every job stated in the bible was not a job?

And all the jobs other then a seamstress was done by a man.

You need to realise that the cooks and maids and slaves (and tent makers and carpenters and farmers and most others) lived where they worked, though. The cook lived in the house of his/her master, as did other servants and slaves. The artisan had a workshop in the home. The farmer's house was amongst his fields.

This idea that I leave home in the morning and go to a workplace, from which I return in the evening... that doesn't happen until the industrial revolution. In Paul's time you're looking at cottage industries.

Sure, there were a few exceptions - the military being a notable one - but once you realise that almost everybody worked from home, it changes the way you read these passages. (And I have to laugh at the idea that everyone except a seamstress was a man, even a cursory glance at Scripture will tell you that women did all sorts of things. Lydia was a merchant. Priscilla was a tentmaker alongside her husband. And so on and so on).

 

[kdm1984]

Proverbs 31 shows women working. My husband encourages me to work. My father encourages me to work. I submit to the Bible, my husband, and my father, as a Biblical woman should. Danielwright is not my authority, and his interpretation of Paul's writings are incorrect. He is divorced and his opinions have no Biblical weight.

 

[Endeavourer]

So. when you read the whole bible, you can see how any jobs there where, even before Jesus time there was many jobs and during.

So then Every job stated in the bible .....other then a seamstress was done by a man.

What about the woman running an international merchandising enterprise in Proverbs 31?

Or how she considered a field and purchased it, and then ran the farm?

 

[RDKirk]

Gal.3

1. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col.3

1. [11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

However, it is best in my opinion to have a stay at home mom like I had and our kids had. Unfortunately, the family unit has been seriously damaged. Most households with children are now single parent families. Beginning in WWII, as I understand it, women had to do men’s jobs. This allowed for extra income for the men returning home from war. Doing better than the Jones’ was maybe a thing back then.

WWII encouraged the concept of a woman having a work life for some period of time before marriage, rather than being married in her teens.

But working wives only started becoming prevalent in the late 60s. By that time, the global economic supremacy that the US had enjoyed after WWII had begun to crumble. Germany and Japan had fully recovered from the war and had become global competitors again.

The value of labor took a heavy beating during that period--partially covered in the public consciousness by other events such as the Vietnam War and Civil Rights changes. Wives went to work because they had to as their husbands' earning power began to plummet.

Most people don't realize that if wives hadn't started working in the late 60s the economy would have collapsed. As it was, President Nixon still too extreme economic measures, such as taking US currency completely off the gold standard and allowing it to float against the value of other world currencies, the "petrodollar" deal with Saudi Arabia to prop up the value of the dollar, and even the wage and price freeze.

Image the president today ordering all businesses in the US to freeze their wages and prices. But that's what Nixon did--the situation was that extreme.

 

[RDKirk]

Of course, the historical example that I gave was that both husband and wife worked at home, yet the focus of this thread is women working outside the home. I don’t hear anyone saying that men shouldn’t work outside the home, yet in the pre-industrial ear that generally didn’t happen.

Actually, it rather did. The women's work was still concentrated within and around the house itself, and her focus was on her children, while the male work was out toward the perimeter and men were away from the house for most of the day.