women remain silent, i just want to be secure

[lambofgod43985889]

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (ESV) First Corinthians 14:33–35

i want to be secure what this means from different perspectives here, not intend to offend nobody, are not my words but the bible's words

 

[Pavel Mosko]

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (ESV) First Corinthians 14:33–35

i want to be secure what this means from different perspectives here, not intend to offend nobody, are not my words but the bible's words

Well the topic is a bit involved from my perspective (Traditional Christian Sacramental). I would see it as part of a Cosmological view that deals with God's plan for creation and God's ways etc. There is a term called "Economy" that sort of gets at that idea in Christian theology.


It also relates to the issue of Temple worship where Temple worship etc. is not just seen as a temporary dispensational thing but as a lasting paradigm in general in both Judaism and Christianity (even though the earthly temple is destroyed in Judaism, the visions of heaven depict the worship of heaven in terms of temple themes etc. and that world view, mentality, or paradigm is still in play)


Man, Woman, and the Priesthood of Christ by Kallistos Ware from 'Man, Woman, and Priesthood' - WOMEN CAN BE PRIESTS


Economy (religion) - Wikipedia


The Temple Roots of the Liturgy

 

[trophy33]

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (ESV) First Corinthians 14:33–35

i want to be secure what this means from different perspectives here, not intend to offend nobody, are not my words but the bible's words

I would say it means what it says.

 

[lambofgod43985889]

i expected more of this thread

 

[Paidiske]

Some of us are wary of these discussions, as they seldom go well.

I would say, if you want to make sense of this, start by noticing that in fact, women were not silent in all the congregations of the saints, as an absolute rule, even in Paul's day (and this is attested to elsewhere in the New Testament); and then you can begin to put this particular text into place as part of a bigger picture.

 

[Archivist]

I recall our college Chaplin, who often worked classroom questions into his Sunday sermons, saying that the reference was to woman who were excitedly talking during their first entry into the church. The instructions were intended to address a problem that was both local and temporary. It was not intended to be a command for all women for all times.

 

[creslaw]

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (ESV) First Corinthians 14:33–35

i want to be secure what this means from different perspectives here, not intend to offend nobody, are not my words but the bible's words

It goes along with 1 Timothy 2:11-12. I agree with the poster that wrote it means what it says not with those who try to adapt the Bible to suit their inclinations.

 

[topher694]

There is a strong argument to be made that 1 Cor 14:34-35 is not Paul's words, but that he is quoting the letter written to him by the Corinthians and addressing it. This happens several other times in 1 Corinthians and it fits much better with the flow of the writing.

1 Cor 14:32-33 (Paul speaking) = Prophets are subject to prophets... God is not the author of confusion... He is the same in all churches... in other words major doctrinal things should be spiritually evaluated by trusted leadership and should make sense.

1 Cor 14:34-35 (Quoting the Corinthians) = Women keep silent, ect...

1 Cor 14:36 (Paul again in the context of 32&33) = Who do you think you are to change the rules? If you don't like it... tough.

In this context, Paul is admonishing them for telling women to be silent not encouraging it.

If I had to guess, some dude in the Corinthian church thought it would be a good idea to "prophesy" that women should be silent and it created a big old mess that Paul had to address (this guy would have loved online forums). This is why Paul is addressing the purpose and order for prophesy first, then setting the record straight on the specific prophetic word which was in error. This would be in line with the church of Corinth being a total mess at the time.

This also fits with the rest of Paul's writings which at times encourage men and women both to pray and teach in corporate settings, and praises women ministers for work well done. Yes, there is also 1 Tim 2. But earlier in 1 Tim is one of the places Paul encourages men and women both to pray corporately. He wouldn't contradict himself in the same letter. A deeper study of 1 Tim 2, suggests Paul is addressing more about HOW women relate to/speak to/teach men than whether they should or not.

Bottom line is there is far more scripture of Paul seemingly acknowledging and even encouraging women in church and even leadership than the 2 scriptures that people point to that discourage it.

 

[creslaw]

This also fits with the rest of Paul's writings which at times encourage men and women both to pray and teach in corporate settings, and praises women ministers for work well done. Yes, there is also 1 Tim 2. But earlier in 1 Tim is one of the places Paul encourages men and women both to pray corporately. He wouldn't contradict himself in the same letter. A deeper study of 1 Tim 2, suggests Paul is addressing more about HOW women relate to/speak to/teach men than whether they should or not.

Bottom line is there is far more scripture of Paul seemingly acknowledging and even encouraging women in church and even leadership than the 2 scriptures that people point to that discourage it.

I can only tell you how we apply 1 Timothy 2:12 "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." (RSV)

Women participate in our church service in prayer, musical items, personal testimonies, Bible readings & teaching children in Sunday school but they do not preach/teach in the general assembly.

In 1 Timothy 2:13-14 Paul gives the reason for his instruction.

 

[topher694]

I can only tell you how we apply 1 Timothy 2:12 "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." (RSV)

Women participate in our church service in prayer, musical items, personal testimonies, Bible readings & teaching children in Sunday school but they do not preach/teach in the general assembly.

In 1 Timothy 2:13-14 Paul gives the reason for his instruction.

Authority there is a strong word with negative connotations that is used elsewhere in the Bible as a warning for men to not do as well.

It is kinda like saying, it isn't good for women to forcefully take authority and dominate men. That should never be what ministry is about for men or women.

I think what is being said in 1 Tim 2:12 could be summed up like this: don't tolerate Jezebel.

Wait. Didn't I read that somewhere else in the Bible?

 

[creslaw]

Authority there is a strong word with negative connotations that is used elsewhere in the Bible as a warning for men to not do as well.

It is kinda like saying, it isn't good for women to forcefully take authority and dominate men. That should never be what ministry is about for men or women.

I think what is being said in 1 Tim 2:12 could be summed up like this: don't tolerate Jezebel.

Wait. Didn't I read that somewhere else in the Bible?

We have a well defined line of authority in our local assembly ... I would say most churches do. While authority can be abused, godly authority is necessary to function effectively.

 

[topher694]

We have a well defined line of authority in our local assembly ... I would say most churches do. While authority can be abused, godly authority is necessary to function effectively.

As do we at my church. However, I'm not sure how this relates. All I'm saying is, I think Paul message in 1 Tim 2:12 is, "don't let Jezebel usurp that godly authority" even further, "don't let her get her hooks into others by giving her a voice"

 

[creslaw]

As do we at my church. However, I'm not sure how this relates. All I'm saying is, I think Paul message in 1 Tim 2:12 is, "don't let Jezebel usurp that godly authority" even further, "don't let her get her hooks into others by giving her a voice"

I do not see "Jezebel" in Paul's comments about women in this passage ... in fact he is expressly referring to "women who profess godliness" (1 Timothy 2:10).

 

[topher694]

I do not see "Jezebel" in Paul's comments about women in this passage ... in fact he is expressly referring to "women who profess godliness" (1 Timothy 2:10).

You're shifting the goalpost. I already explained what "authority" means in verse 12... that is very much inline with the methods of Jezebel. Putting it together with verse 10 makes even more sense. Women should profess godliness and be submissive (that's all good), but don't permit those (women) who are not godly - those who do the opposite - to steal your authority or teach those under your authority.

 

[creslaw]

You're shifting the goalpost. I already explained what "authority" means in verse 12... that is very much inline with the methods of Jezebel. Putting it together with verse 10 makes even more sense. Women should profess godliness and be submissive (that's all good), but don't permit those (women) who are not godly - those who do the opposite - to steal your authority or teach those under your authority.

I do not accept your definition of 'authority' implying a Jezebel attitude. The word must be understood in the context of 1 Timothy 2 & 3 which is how the church should be run. Paul is simply saying control of the local assembly should be in the hands of the men.

 

[Paidiske]

I think there's a larger (and kind of prior) discussion to be had there about what we mean by "control" of the local assembly and what that should look like. I would suggest that clergy are not supposed to "control" the local assembly.

 

[topher694]

I do not accept your definition of 'authority' implying a Jezebel attitude. The word must be understood in the context of 1 Timothy 2 & 3 which is how the church should be run. Paul is simply saying control of the local assembly should be in the hands of the men.

Well then you're not accepting the definition of the word in greek, "Authenteo":

1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master

Does that sound like a godly exercise of authority by a man or a woman? But it sure does sound like what today many would call Jezebel.

 

[creslaw]

Well then you're not accepting the definition of the word in greek, "Authenteo":

1. one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master

Does that sound like a godly exercise of authority by a man or a woman? But it sure does sound like what today many would call Jezebel.

A word must always be understood in context. If you consult more widely you will see the word also means "govern". Paul is talking about the role of godly men & women in the local assembly. 'Authority' need not be given a negative meaning and in this context it is not justified.

 

[topher694]

A word must always be understood in context. If you consult more widely you will see the word also means "govern". Paul is talking about the role of godly men & women in the local assembly. 'Authority' need not be given a negative meaning and in this context it is not justified.

Oh please, it means "govern by exercising dominion over one" that is still 100% in the context of the other 3 and what I stated. You literally cherry-picked 1 WORD from 4 variations of the definition and you are talking to me about context???

The OP asked for different perspectives on a different scripture. I've now given a much more detailed perspective on two scriptures than anything I've seen you give. In fact all I've seen from you pretty much boils down to, "nuh uh, that ain't true!".

I've provided what was asked. A perspective along with the reasoning behind it. I see no benefit in debating it further on my end.

 

[creslaw]

Oh please, it means "govern by exercising dominion over one" that is still 100% in the context of the other 3 and what I stated. You literally cherry-picked 1 WORD from 4 variations of the definition and you are talking to me about context???

The OP asked for different perspectives on a different scripture. I've now given a much more detailed perspective on two scriptures than anything I've seen you give. In fact all I've seen from you pretty much boils down to, "nuh uh, that ain't true!".

I've provided what was asked. A perspective along with the reasoning behind it. I see no benefit in debating it further on my end.

You would probably better appreciate how Paul's words apply when seeing them in action. It is not about forcefully imposing one's will on another, it is simply respecting the Scriptural authority structure in the church.