You were including all here participating in your prayer which means you are accusing us all of this presumption, at least that's how I see it. You did not post the passage, but made it your prayer, for today.
By saying this you are saying that we are subject to G-ds wrath because we don't all agree on how he views women? I don't think so, nor do I believe that many here would either.
His wrath is saved up for the disobedient, the heathen, not for those who are believers and in obedience to him.
Do you honestly believe that this is meant for us?
Oh, dear Lulav!
I am afraid you have misunderstood!
No I am not intending to accuse anyone, and in posting, I still haven't always retained the memory of who said what in a previous post. and then, while posting, don't know how to go back to check that without losing what has been done. Technical difficulties on my part for that.
I fully agree that His END TIME wrath is to be poured out on those who reject Him, but Habakkuk was not among those who were rejected, though he interceded for them, knowing I suppose, that the rain will fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous. So even righteous people have trouble when some else' behavior stirs something up.
I have no interest in a
I'm right/ Your wrong kind of argument. That, too, is a rather Greek or Western mindset and way of proceeding. I believe all of us need to remain humble and "hold some things loosely" that are just not clear.
Personally, I think that YHWH left some things muddy like that, in order to test our hearts. Will we fall into the snare and become contentious or will we remain gracious?
Exploring them I do not think should include any kind of "put down" humor or trying to make points one way or the other, with sarcastic remarks that disparage either side or distract. I have seen this sort of thing often among those who call themselves Messianic, and in these forums in my short time here I'm sad to say, as I believe others have commented on as well.
Yet, having said that I'm not interested in a right/wrong approach, it is also true that there are some things that may seem one way in one level of study, yet when taken as a whole, in light of our Abba's character and His functional way of designing every aspect of Creation, there is more to see.
So if one person is seeing or addressing an issue at a pshat or remez level and discussing views with someone who is seeing or addressing an issue at say a midrashic level, they could well think they are at odds with one another, or get involved in thinking one is right and the other is wrong.
My apologies if I am preaching to the proverbial choir here! And I do mean to address all, not just Lulav, I would think people here in this thread already have to know these things, don't they? But if they don't, that may explain some of the difficulties that arise in trying to discuss topics.
It is not an accusation to make an observation. In this case, that there are some people, and I think it is clear from reading the posts who that is, that APPEAR absolutely confident that their way of understanding a Scripture passage or concept is the ONLY possible way to understand it. I would have to say I have been guilty of that myself back in the years before I became a serious student of the Word, though not a scholar by any standards still.
Before I began to study from a Hebraic perspective it seemed every sermon I heard or every article I read was just repeating the same things I'd already heard or studied. Nothing new under the sun.
I felt some despair then, thinking this can't be! It can't possibly be that I know everything there is to know...I'm too young and haven't studied enough yet for that to happen I thought. So where was the rest of the story? I had heard people say that Scripture was deep and endless, but I certainly wasn't seeing that!
Then, when I began to study from a Hebraic perspective, and began to see the western interpretations and how they influenced what we saw as opposed to the eastern/Hebraic worldview, more opened up. Learning about and seeing the
Pshat, Remez, Drash and
Sod levels of understanding began to be more apparent that there is more than one way to fulfill Torah. And Hillel's Rules of Interpretation... HERE is part of the depth I was looking for. All praise to Yeshua!
Fulfilling Torah to my understanding means to make YHWH's character more evident and to be in accord with His character in whatever is said, while abolishing it refers to any interpretation that would in some way misrepresent His nature and character. If I am wrong on this, I will stand corrected.
Then learning more about paleo Hebrew and the "micro" messages of each letter and thus each word opened more...and is still opening up more as I study. Then learning about thematic and chiastic studies began to show more on a "macro" level of how our Abba has woven in the depth of meaning where layer upon layer of meaning and instruction and insight is yet still consistent to the whole.
In studying at any level, and seeing additional insights, there must still be respect maintained for the pshat level, though the other levels will often further clarify what is meant.
If one is looking at the pshat level, it is crucial to understand the context.Yes, I know every Bible teacher will tell us that, but my question has been how many are actually DOING that, unless they are bringing a Hebraic worldview?
In several of my posts on this topic, I have referenced Cheryl Schatz in depth work on the role of women. Though she doesn't have a Hebraic worldview, she HAS done in-depth study and as I've noted, has been able to shed some light on cultural aspects that need to be understood more fully, in order to rightly divide the Word. I think this has bearing on understanding at least the pshat level, and perhaps more.
I don't think it would be productive to try to re-create her study here in a thread as it is something in the area of 5 hours long so I have referred to it.
It reminds me, too, of people arguing over which of the 4 generally accepted eschatalogylviews are "correct" when I think that each of them is coming from a different perspective and has it's use for discipline and correction.
Does this help clarify my intent?
If it doesn't I think I will have to stop here anyway as too many words without the whole context of relationship and nuances and facial expressions that go with personal conversation may just make matters worse!
As someone recently told me, if you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to stop digging!
