Women rabbis

[janwoG]

To Sam Wis
The French female hero Saint Jeanne d'Arc was also a shepherdess of sheep before she led the French War against the English in the middle age.

 

[Mr. Donut]

From the Statement of Faith of the Association of Messianic Congregations:

"The Body of Messiah
We believe that all believers in Yeshua are members of the universal body (community) and bride of the Messiah. The body of Messiah began at Shavuot (Pentecost) with the baptism of the Holy Spirit after the ascension of Yeshua. Membership in the body is based solely on faith in Messiah. This body is distinct from Israel and is composed of both Jews and Gentiles made one in Messiah. These members are under the solemn duty to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of love. We believe that the ordinances of the local congregation are water immersion and the Lord's Supper. We believe that the purpose of the local congregation is to glorify God through worship, instruction, accountability, discipline, fellowship and outreach. Its eldership is open to men who fulfill the qualifications for elder as set forth in the New Covenant. The Scriptures encourage the active participation and regular assembly of believers in the local body. (Matthew 16:15-18 Luke 22:24-27; Acts 1:5, 2:14-36; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 2:11-18, 5:23-27; Colossians 1:18, 3:14,15)"

Posted to give answer, not cause for disputation.

 

[Brother Sammy]

Paul also said, "...as is the law..." Can you point me to that law? Thanks.

Paul says in 14:37....."the things I write to you are the LORD's commandments." Paul wasn't offering opinion, he was giving a commandment from the Lord. As for the Law that he was referring to from the Torah, Paul could have easily been referring to Genesis 3:16 G-d has given men authority over women in matters governing over the Church.

 

[yedida]

Paul says in 14:37....."the things I write to you are the LORD's commandments." Paul wasn't offering opinion, he was giving a commandment from the Lord. As for the Law that he was referring to from the Torah, Paul could have easily been referring to Genesis 3:16 G-d has given men authority over women in matters governing over the Church.

Teaching a man is not really having authority over him except in the matter at hand.

 

[janwoG]

To jcpro

Is it then a sin to teach Torah to non Jews and the Goyim to learn Torah?

The Rambam quoted that “That is why our sages said “Even a non-Jew who studies the Torah of our teacher Moses ressembles a High Priest” (Bava Kamm 38 b) : A Maimonides Reader, Isadore Twersky, Library of Jewish Studies, 1972, p 478

 

[Yahudim]

What do you guys think about women being rabbis or a husband and wife both being rabbis at a congregation? And why?

I misread the thread title. I was getting ready to tell everyone why those bunnies needed women rabbits.

But to answer your question, I must confess that I haven't read the entire thread. But there are numerous examples of women in positions of authority in Brith Chadashah and Tanakh. From what I can tell, they never purposely set themselves in roles of authority over men; even though they sometimes found themselves there. Deborah, the prophetess and wife of Lapidoth, did not want to lead or to go into battle. But Barak the son of Abinoam; the man of chosen authority by Yah, deferred for lack of faith. He would not go unless Deborah led the way.

So I am of the opinion that if Yah promotes a woman to a position of authority by chance or circumstance (such as the death of the husband and no clear choice for his successor within the congregation), we should be very circumspect in questioning that authority. However, when founding a congregation in the traditional sense, then we should follow the conventions set forth in scripture - unless He intervenes of course.

 

[yedida]

I agree. We see nothing of the sort in Torah so if it is not confirmed by 2 other authors in the bible then it becomes someone's opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Even Paul said that by 2 or 3 witnesses each word would be established. So?

 

[SAM Wis]

To Sam Wis
The French female hero Saint Jeanne d'Arc was also a shepherdess of sheep before she led the French War against the English in the middle age.

Didn't know that, janwoG.

Interesting fact. May have to ponder it a while.

 

[SAM Wis]

I misread the thread title. I was getting ready to tell everyone why those bunnies needed women rabbits.

But to answer your question, I must confess that I haven't read the entire thread. But there are numerous examples of women in positions of authority in Brith Chadashah and Tanakh. From what I can tell, they never purposely set themselves in roles of authority over men; even though they sometimes found themselves there. Deborah, the prophetess and wife of Lapidoth, did not want to lead or to go into battle. But Barak the son of Abinoam; the man of chosen authority by Yah, deferred for lack of faith. He would not go unless Deborah led the way.

So I am of the opinion that if Yah promotes a woman to a position of authority by chance or circumstance (such as the death of the husband and no clear choice for his successor within the congregation), we should be very circumspect in questioning that authority. However, when founding a congregation in the traditional sense, then we should follow the conventions set forth in scripture - unless He intervenes of course.

Not to be contentious here, but just wondering: what does this mean:
"founding a congregation in the traditional sense" Does this mean when human beings decide there is a need for a congregation, or when our Father directs the development of one, or both?

Yes, there are many more examples of women in leadership throughout Brit Chadasha; sorry don't have the list at my fingertips but they are there and supported and encouraged by Shaul. Though she doesn't have a Hebraic focus and I don't agree with all her conclusions, still Cheryl Schatz has done the most comprehensive study I've ever seen on this subject.
Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free? If you read the comments, even people who disagree with her have found the presentation to be well done.
She goes a long way toward sorting out cultural and Scriptural teachings.

Would love to see an analysis of this study from a Hebraic view; just haven't had time to get deeply into doing that myself...yet? Had tried to communicate with her about a Hebraic perspective but she wasn't open to much discussion.

I agree with your caution, Talmudim!

We need to take it up with YHWH and see what His direction is, particularly since we are in such a transitional time. We need to be careful not to mistake tradition for Torah.

Maybe this is a provocative comparison.
I see a similarity here. Some people would say that only a man of Jewish bloodline as opposed to a man of Gentile heritage should be in leadership, whether or not the Jewish man is equipped or called to do so and regardless of the Gentile man's calling or equipping.
Some would say that only a man should be in leadership as opposed to acknowledging a woman's call/leadership, whether or not the man is equipped or called to do so, regardless of the woman's calling or equipping.

(and anyway, once grafted in by faith, does this "distinction" really still exist?)

Scripture speaks of other qualities of character that are important as well.

Whether male or female, I have seen an awful lot of damage come about to individuals and groups if someone in ministry leadership was too immature or in some way not really equipped to handle the pressures and expectations. How would this be a YHWH honoring thing?

For me, I didn't ask for the responsibility I have been given, nor for an official "title" in fact, sadly, years ago tried to avoid it when I first understood something was going to be asked of me. I do know that I have said "hineni" even before I knew the Hebrew word for it, and long before I had any clear idea of what it might all involve. I'd considered it an old thing, but He didn't.

I don't know if this might be true for other women who have a calling in leadership of some kind or another but I do also see that my area of calling has more to do with "Mama's Torah" the assistance with maturity and character development which seems to fall into a woman's "role" in many ways. Except that in America today we have far more people who have grown older than those who have actually grown up so the need for Mama's Torah is great for both men and women.


Now this is my response, both to myself as I have processed it and to others who ask, take it up with Yeshua!

 

[Mr. Donut]

I believe God is quite clear in the outline of Headship.
There are no limitations upon what women can do in secular employ, as seen in Proverbs 31. The only limitation found in Scripture are in the teaching and leadership of the Congregation and familial household headship.
The examples given have been of Biblical women in leadership positions outside of Gods House, these do not violate Gods Law.
An interesting essay can be read here.
I understand that while it's from a non-Jewish Christian source, one can not deny the research and explaination is solidly based in Scripture.

 

[Yahudim]

Not to be contentious here, but just wondering: what does this mean:
"founding a congregation in the traditional sense" Does this mean when human beings decide there is a need for a congregation, or when our Father directs the development of one, or both?

*snip*​

Shalom Sis,

I don't take it as contentious. I don't mind clarifying. I was speaking in terms of the traditional roles of men and women in the home, the congregation and society. It is something that I see as being eroded by evil and greed. But scripture tells us that when the man can't or won't step up, the woman is free, even obligated to do so. But I do abhor the erosion of the traditional family and a family oriented society.

I teach and evangelize. I personally am not called to lead a congregation. It has been my experience though, that there are a whole lot more people claiming to be qualified and called - than the ones that will admit they are not. Leadership does not usually bring out the best in people. But there are a few that wear it well. I try and let Him lead.

JSYK, I am not one of those that attempts to silence anyone. Except when I need a little peace.

 

[Qnts2]

I believe God is quite clear in the outline of Headship.
There are no limitations upon what women can do in secular employ, as seen in Proverbs 31. The only limitation found in Scripture are in the teaching and leadership of the Congregation and familial household headship.
The examples given have been of Biblical women in leadership positions outside of Gods House, these do not violate Gods Law.
An interesting essay can be read here.
I understand that while it's from a non-Jewish Christian source, one can not deny the research and explaination is solidly based in Scripture.

Actually, I am only on page 2 and have found at least 2 errors and probably 3.

The paper is saying that what Paul is
teaching in these epistles has been the case from the
beginning. God established this authority structure at the
time of creation, and it is not to be altered.


Let's start from the beginning; The account of creation.

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Eve was the 'help meet'. The Hebrew word for help meet or helper is 'ezer'.

Deut 33:29 Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

Psalm 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he [is] their help and their shield.

Psalm 124:8 Our help [is] in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

So, God is our helper, our ezer. Unless one wants to claim that God is to be submissive to man, then a woman being an ezer, helper to man, is not an indication of a hierarchy where a woman is lower in authority then man. Eve was a helper of Adam, God was a helper of David. Being a helper is not indicative of an authority structure.

Since the paper appealed to the authority structure at the time of creation, and claims Paul was appealing to this same authority structure, and the so called authority structure did not exist at the time of creation, then the entire first two pages is now in error.

In reality, the authority structure, the relationship between a man and his wife, was setup as a result of the fall. The man ruling over the wife is part of the punishment of the fall.

 

[Yahudim]

Actually, I am only on page 2 and have found at least 2 errors and probably 3.

The paper is saying that what Paul is
teaching in these epistles has been the case from the
beginning. God established this authority structure at the
time of creation, and it is not to be altered.


Let's start from the beginning; The account of creation.

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Eve was the 'help meet'. The Hebrew word for help meet or helper is 'ezer'.

Deut 33:29 Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

Psalm 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he [is] their help and their shield.

Psalm 124:8 Our help [is] in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

So, God is our helper, our ezer. Unless one wants to claim that God is to be submissive to man, then a woman being an ezer, helper to man, is not an indication of a hierarchy where a woman is lower in authority then man. Eve was a helper of Adam, God was a helper of David. Being a helper is not indicative of an authority structure.

Since the paper appealed to the authority structure at the time of creation, and claims Paul was appealing to this same authority structure, and the so called authority structure did not exist at the time of creation, then the entire first two pages is now in error.

In reality, the authority structure, the relationship between a man and his wife, was setup as a result of the fall. The man ruling over the wife is part of the punishment of the fall.

Good call!

You agree that there is a structure ordained by Elohim and established from the time of the fall. That seems conclusive. I can live with that.

 

[Mr. Donut]

Actually, I am only on page 2 and have found at least 2 errors and probably 3.

The paper is saying that what Paul is
teaching in these epistles has been the case from the
beginning. God established this authority structure at the
time of creation, and it is not to be altered.

Let's start from the beginning; The account of creation.

"Noteworthy is the fact that in each of these three

passages Paul takes his readers back to the creation
account to show that his teaching is in accord with the
Old Testament (see 1 Corinthians 11:7-9; 14:34b; and 1​

Timothy 2:13)." Nothing here is said about "from the beginning" so I guess that takes care of that "error".

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Eve was the 'help meet'. The Hebrew word for help meet or helper is 'ezer'.

Also this title is applied to Eve before the fall...
There goes another "error"...

Deut 33:29 Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

Psalm 115:9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he [is] their help and their shield.

Psalm 124:8 Our help [is] in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

So, God is our helper, our ezer. Unless one wants to claim that God is to be submissive to man, then a woman being an ezer, helper to man, is not an indication of a hierarchy where a woman is lower in authority then man. Eve was a helper of Adam, God was a helper of David. Being a helper is not indicative of an authority structure.

Can you hear a tree bark or peel a dogs bark?
May be the same word - different meaning.
In Genesis 2:18 the word is meant in reference in a complimentary context, as in completing. In the Scripture from Deuteronomy and The Psalms the word is in the context of one who can be counted on, leaned on or who guides.

Since the paper appealed to the authority structure at the time of creation, and claims Paul was appealing to this same authority structure, and the so called authority structure did not exist at the time of creation, then the entire first two pages is now in error.

"The Creation Account" in most classrooms include all of the Genesis record from Genesis 1:1 through to 10:32 There are those of the school that believe the whole of Scripture is "The Creation Account", as they see the New Jerusalem, The New Heaven and the New Earth as part of Gods perfect plan of creation.

In reality, the authority structure, the relationship between a man and his wife, was setup as a result of the fall. The man ruling over the wife is part of the punishment of the fall.

I do not see Gods structure as one of Authority, I see it as one of responsibility and obedience with God in control. Where men are called and are the resposible parties for the many false doctrines and failures we are suffering today. It does not make a man better than a woman or vise versa, only called to a different duty. Perhaps if people got rid of the "Me Tarzan - You Jane" attitude things may work more like God wanted it...

 

[Lulav]

Paul says in 14:37....."the things I write to you are the LORD's commandments." Paul wasn't offering opinion, he was giving a commandment from the Lord. As for the Law that he was referring to from the Torah, Paul could have easily been referring to Genesis 3:16 G-d has given men authority over women in matters governing over the Church.

If I may, this is based on the whole context of the chapter, which involves prophecy, speaking in tongues, etc. This is based on Paul's idea of gifts being given. If that is traced back to the Psalm it can be seen that he had it backwards. Using this to designate what he was teaching, he believed it was from G-d but yet it was backwards. G-d didn't give gifts to men, rather as this is speaking of Messiah, it is saying that he received gifts of men. The men/mankind were his gifts, even rebellious ones.

Paul writes this:

Wherefore he saith , When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The Psalm says this:
עָלִיתָ לַמָּרוֹם, שָׁבִיתָ שֶּׁבִי-- לָקַחְתָּ מַתָּנוֹת, בָּאָדָם;
וְאַף סוֹרְרִים, לִשְׁכֹּן יָהּ אֱלֹהִים.

Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captivity captive; Thou hast received gifts among men, yea, among the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell there.

 

[yedida]

I think that there was a lot of tweaking going on back in the day.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I find it interesting that when Josiah's men "found" the scroll of the Torah in the Temple, they went to seek out the counsel of YHWH. Were there no prophets around for them to consult? I'm certain that there were, but instead of going to the prophets (masculine), they went to the prophetess (feminine). What keeps women from speaking on behalf of God today if not the pride and prejudice of sexism?

 

[Lulav]

Well since Paul was only speaking to Gentile women, then Jewish Prophetess' can still speak!

 

[Mr. Donut]

Interesting that Huldah, Miriam, Deborah and others bearing the title prophetess were not recorded in Scripture as to having held on going prophetic ministries. Nor does Scripture record that they ever served in The Temple, or a Synagogue, as Priests or Rabbis, which that would have been recorded. There does not exist one book of Scripture recorded by a woman. Not one.
All of this means what?
Does it mean that one sex is superior while the other is inferior?
No.
It only means that God has a design and a purpose for each and every one of us.
Only by surrendering to His designed purpose for us will we ever begin to understand His will for our lives and the impact that can have on a lost and dying world.
How can we teach that which we don't obey?

 

[SAM Wis]

I find it interesting that when Josiah's men "found" the scroll of the Torah in the Temple, they went to seek out the counsel of YHWH. Were there no prophets around for them to consult? I'm certain that there were, but instead of going to the prophets (masculine), they went to the prophetess (feminine). What keeps women from speaking on behalf of God today if not the pride and prejudice of sexism?

AS I am reading over what I have written here, I see it is going WAY BEYOND just the question of women having the title of rabbi. Sorry!
I am going to leave it and submit it anyway, but if you don't want to side track a bit, feel free to skip on to the next post.


And it works both ways, I'm afraid. Not only are there many men who are very willing to ascribe to themselves "godlike" status, so are there many women who are very willing to ascribe "unimportant" status to themselves, often confusing meekness and humility with subservience. (Yeshua was our model of meekness and humility, yes?) Cheryl Schatz study, as I posted earlier, does a great job of examining this sexism influence, and addressing it respectfully yet clearly.

It is difficult to communicate clearly on these subjects when there is so much that is "assumed" to be exactly the way "I" read it; so what my set of experiences tells me this particular word or phrase means, I assume it MUST automatically mean that to anyone else who reads it! Not always true.

Really, I agree! I don't think this should have anything to do with sexism, feminist or otherwise! It is a matter of getting to know our Abba's character and seeing how it all plays out and plays together in His timing.

Yes, we know that metaphorically the Sun/the greater light is connected with men
and the Moon/the lesser light is connected with women...
This is one level of understanding.

So many (not all!) men take on the identity or challenge? to shine like the sun, while women are told to just reflect.

The person who posted earlier on ezer knegdo was correct in all I've seen.
The study of that phrase and it's meaning is very enlightening and very much misunderstood! While headship is a very important task/role and not to be denied, neither is it a free pass. There's a reason why YHWH said the man needed a deliverer to speak into his life; both for what is good and against what is bad. BOTH TOGETHER represent the fullness of YHWH's character. When we "still" one or the other voice, we are missing that fullness!

Our understanding here, is that ALL OF US, as mankind/moon are the ones who do the reflecting of our Messiah Who Alone is the Son/sun!

All of mankind who chooses will be as the Bride to our Messiah's Bridegroom.


I don't know about other groups on this matter specifically, but I know that initially, years ago, we had a lot to do with dealing with either women/wives or men/husband "jokes" before people began to "get it" that neither kind of put down humor was YHWH honoring. Now, thankfully, if anyone visiting with us or newly with us falls into this, it falls pretty flat and can be addressed pretty quickly.

What keeps women from speaking on behalf of God...Rhetorical question I know, but...

You could probably do a survey as to why women feel inhibited to speak. Some likely responses, I've heard informally anyway:

1) I wonder if God really would speak through me? Scarey!
2) If God really does speak through me, why should/would anyone believe it?
3) When I have spoken up, I have felt the weight of disapproval from both men and women. Confusing: why would God speak through me if He doesn't then cause others to hear?
4) My church prohibits women from speaking up in groups.
5 My husband insists that I only speak through him in any group.
6) I am single so people disregard my input.
7) I am married so people disregard my input.
8) I am divorced so people disregard my input.


I believe it is one aspect of the idea of "2" being both witness and division that is at work here.

that our Father created "mankind" as one first; and just as He then split them apart, AFTER giving "them" dominion and authority, the first thing He told them was that the two shall become one. This is the same picture He has created with those who look to Him to become "one" with Him at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

Mankind, as "one" needed to be "two" for many reasons beyond this quick commentary here. Just as Israel, "one" nation, needed to be "two" Northern Israel and Southern Israel, as it was from YHWH (1 Kings 12:24), I think it has to do with the need for division and ultimately witness.

No, we will never "become" God, but in His grace and perfect maturity He allows us to share in Him without being threatened.

It has become painfully obvious to me especially in the last year how important this is for us to learn, to put away the old division and enmity between men and women as we move toward being without spot and blemish.