Women Priests.

[SkyWriting]

If you don't like that, don't go to an Orthodox Church.

I go to the Orthodox church festival almost every year. I believe it's mostly female organized.

https://urbanmilwaukee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/20160917_113454-1-e1506114285663.jpg

 

[SkyWriting]

SkyWritting I did not mean to get as personal as I did, forgive me.

Heavens no. I didn't notice anything personal.

 

[SkyWriting]

So, caring or valued, whatever. You are talking about doing something for the sake of the other person's feelings or dignity or sense of equality, even if that person isn't qualified for whatever it is and even when the recognition would violate some Biblical admonition.

The bible advocates equality GIVEN by the action taker. It doesn't even consider the other person.
DO TO OTHERS
WHAT
You would
LIKE FOR THEM
TO DO TO YOU.

Their view is not even considered. Their qualifications are not specified.

You treat them.......just as you would like people to treat you.

The only way to argue is to add your own frindge ideas to that sentence.

You treat (ordain) them (women) just as you would like people to (ordain) treat you.

So, if you are a man who ordains, you must also ordain women.

 

[Albion]

If a woman wishes to be ordained, she will be.
My marriage was ordained by a woman.

"Ordained"= officially called, approved, installed as a clergyperson by a church.

Researcher: Artifacts show that early church women served

"Served?" That is not the issue, and the guesswork of this person is his alone.

 

[prodromos]

So, if you are a man who ordains, you must also ordain women.

So if you are a man who marries people, you must also marry same sex couples?

 

[Paidiske]

Thats a stupid assumption. Do we refuse to allow men and women to compete against each other in boxing because we hate women? Do we refuse to allow children to drive cars because we hate them? ...
It's also true that the Bible says that teachers are to be judged a lot more harshly than anyone else, you could make the case that it's gracious not to allow women to put themselves on the line like that.

Unlike boxing, ordained ministry is not a contest of physical ability to damage one another. And unlike a child attempting to drive, grown women do not lack the physical and cognitive development for the tasks of an ordained person.

It's not gracious to deny women when God calls them. It's the exact opposite of gracious.

I'll put it this way, if I wished to become a priest in the Orthodox Church, I would want them to apply their rules to me, and if that excluded me I'd accept it.

I am grateful that others in my church were more prepared to confront injustice.

Today, there are approximately 145 women priests in the U.S. and about 204 worldwide.

Did you miss some zeros on the end of those numbers?

A big part of Orthodoxy is obedience to your Spiritual Father. If your priest tells you to give up such and such for lent, you do it. If he tells you that you need to say certain prayers every day, you do it. I don't know how the change to having "spiritual mothers" would work. But I know many men would have difficulty acting in obedience to a woman and who knows how this might reverberate through the Church as a whole.

Perhaps it would result in a church both more humble and less willing to leave sexism and misogyny unchallenged. (We don't obey because of the sex of the person in the office, or because that aligns with our prejudices, but because of the grace of God working through their ministry; which is not dependent on their physicality).

In my experience, some men at least prefer a spiritual mother.

 

[SkyWriting]

Did you miss some zeros on the end of those numbers?

That was just for RCC but I trimmed it because branding causes people to drool hate.

 

[Gregorikos]

For pronouns sure. but this passage cites qualifications and it says a husband must have one wife! both genders are used here! That ends this argument for this verse.

For more than pronouns. I showed you 4 examples of aner being used for both male and female.

Deception doesn't become you. I do understand what an idiom is and I showed you true idioms versus your alleged and unproved claim that a husband of one wife is an idiom for simple marital fidelity! YOu must be a champ at the game Twister the way you twist and turn! And no THEY all do not understand this as an idiom! Matter of fact very few understand this as an idiom. and that is by simply taking th eword of some scholares who proividse no histoircal baisis of how this developed as an idiom.

"They all" being the translators of the translations I showed you and those who inscribed "husband of one wife" on headstones.

And we are still waiting for empirical historic evidence that shows the development of this passage to be an idiom for simply being maritally faithful! Remember an idiom is a phrase not recognized by its words! Faithfulness can certainly be recognized in these words "A Bishop therefore must be the husband of one wife"!

My contention is there is no such evidence available for this idiom or most others. Your entire argument against "husband of one wife" being idiomatic hinges on your claim that "idioms develop over time," and your demand that I produce historical evidence of this idioms development. But that is rubbish. Idioms don't develop over time. We usually don't know where they came from.

YOu allege that the biblical passage is an idiom- you must prove it! I say it is not. Prove it is! And remember citing some scholar who says in their opinion, they think it probably is an idiom! That is not proof but opinion! Especially inlight of the fact that the bulk of Scholars are against you! Even your vaunted orthodox churches whom you cite as Junia being an apostle and yet do not nor have ever ordained women!

I cited several credible sources that says it is an idiom. You are the one wanting to disqualify half the body of Christ from leadership. It is you who have to have an irrefutable case. You do not.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. ariel.org you can learn of his credentials there. There did I blow my smoke well????

So you asked "your teacher" Dr Fruchtenbaum about the Louw and Nida lexicon, and according to you he replied, "Meh." Is that it? How did you ask him?

 

[SkyWriting]

Most everyone says that John Paul II closed the door on the matter. Maybe, but who knows what could happen in 100 years? After all, Cantate Domino was considered an infallible Papal Bull for centuries and Ultra-Traditional Catholics still view it as infallible. Yet, the current Catholic teaching on "invincible ignorance" has opened the door of salvation to non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians, something that was specifically closed in the Cantate Domino Papal Bull. Hence, only time will tell if the Catholic Church will one day change it's mind and allow women priests.

2018 - There are approximately 145 women Catholic priests in the U.S. and about 204 worldwide, according to the Roman Catholic Women priests organization, ranging from as young as about 35 into their 70s and older.What a Roman Catholic Woman Priest Looks Like

 

[SkyWriting]

I personally see nothing wrong with women priests. The Catholic Church seems to take the position that they must follow the lead of Jesus, in that all 12 of his close disciples were men. However, his approach could well have just reflected the norms of life in the 1st Century.

Most of the 12 were upset that Jesus treated women as equals. None of them were known to have repented of this.

 

[SkyWriting]

Interesting, but my interest is the authority of God; where does God stand on this issue; is sin involved?

Jesus treated women equally. The apostles never followed suit.

 

[prodromos]

2018 - There are approximately 145 women Catholic priests in the U.S. and about 204 worldwide, according to the Roman Catholic Women priests organization, ranging from as young as about 35 into their 70s and older.What a Roman Catholic Woman Priest Looks Like

From the article:
Jennifer O’Malley, 45, and her wife, Elizabeth Carlin, 44, Long Beach, California

I would consider her 'calling' to the priesthood to have the same legitimacy as her marriage

 

[prodromos]

Most of the 12 were upset that Jesus treated women as equals. None of them were known to have repented of this.

Complete nonsense.

 

[Albion]

2018 - There are approximately 145 women Catholic priests in the U.S. and about 204 worldwide, according to the Roman Catholic Women priests organization, ranging from as young as about 35 into their 70s and older.What a Roman Catholic Woman Priest Looks Like

...and not a one of them is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church as a priest in that church.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Women should not be teachers of the faith and the way and their teaching be regarded as sound doctrine or lead men individually spiritually but they can share their walk with God in trying to serve Him and be loving to others. That is they can encourage. Others should give opportunity to listen but even if one gets one thing wrong they can teach but it need not be agreed upon as doctrine as it is not their position to preach

 

[nolidad]

For more than pronouns. I showed you 4 examples of aner being used for both male and female.

No you showed me 4 passages that 3 were men and only one (because it was plural and third person ) could be men and women. Sorry but you don't get to rewrite Greek rules.

"They all" being the translators of the translations I showed you and those who inscribed "husband of one wife" on headstones.

And you have still to show proof that husband of one wife is an idiom for gender neutral marital fidelity specifically. all your other meanderings are just smoke screens to obscure the facts of this passage. Gyne can never be translated as male! Sorry but you don't get to re write the rules.

My contention is there is no such evidence available for this idiom or most others. Your entire argument against "husband of one wife" being idiomatic hinges on your claim that "idioms develop over time," and your demand that I produce historical evidence of this idioms development. But that is rubbish. Idioms don't develop over time. We usually don't know where they came from.

So you have no evidence other than opinion that this is an idiom.

Even you correctly showed that an idiom does not mean what teh words say but yet we can see faithfulness in this.

Idioms do develop over time, and yes we can trace how almost all came from. It was right there on teh link I posted showing several American Idioms!

Calling teh demand rubbish is a last ditch effort to realize you have no proof it is an idiom!

I cited several credible sources that says it is an idiom. You are the one wanting to disqualify half the body of Christ from leadership. It is you who have to have an irrefutable case. You do not.

And your "credible" sources also offered nothing but their opinion that husband of one wife is an idiom that just means marital faithfulness regardless of gender- which violate Greek grammar!

And no I don't wish to disqualify anyone. I want the Body of Christ to obey the Bible and not mens opinions 2,000 years after it was inspired by God! If you believe god is omniscient and omnipresent and time is nothing to HIm, then you would conclude, that if He meant women being ordained, that this writing would be so controversial, He would have to keep conflict from happening over this issue, used different phrasing (of which in the Greek there are many) that would have not precluded women based on this passage. So you are implying God was INspiring something without thinking of the consequences.

So you asked "your teacher" Dr Fruchtenbaum about the Louw and Nida lexicon, and according to you he replied, "Meh." Is that it? How did you ask him?

Do you also need to know what time of day I asked him? What I was wearing? what was my tone? What did I have for my last meal? I asked He told me and though I did not quote him verbatim, he was not impressed with the work- simply because it tends to highly subjective opinions and not objective linguistic work. Just like your contention that husband of one wife is an idiom butr cannot give any linguistic and historic evidence that it actually is!

 

[Gregorikos]

No you showed me 4 passages that 3 were men and only one (because it was plural and third person ) could be men and women. Sorry but you don't get to rewrite Greek rules.

It only takes one use of aner to refer to both males and females to show you are wrong. But lets see if I had more than one:

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. James 1:5-8 (NKJV)

There we see the word aner (man) referring to "any of you" in the church, which includes both male and female. You are wrong about that one.

till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:13 (NKJV)

Here the entire body of Christ, both male and female, are to grow up into a perfect aner. Paul could have used anthropos there, but he chose aner to refer to all. You are wrong about that one too.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:8 (NKJV) This is a direct quote of Psalms 32:1. It clearly refers to both genders, not only males. And Paul used the word aner there to refer to both genders. You are wrong about that one too.

2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. James 3:2 (NKJV)
James 3:2 Here again, James uses the word aner to refer to "anyone" - male or female. You are wrong about that one too.

So you were wrong every time. Not that it matters, because in 1 Timothy 3:2, aner refers to a man, not a woman. In an idiom. Which means the literal words are no longer in play.

Gyne can never be translated as male! Sorry but you don't get to re write the rules.

I agree. I've never said otherwise. But see above in my comment on aner. Do you remember what an idiom is, and how the literal words have no bearing on the meaning of the phrase?

Idioms do develop over time, and yes we can trace how almost all came from. It was right there on teh link I posted showing several American Idioms!

You haven't proven that idioms develop over time. You haven't cited any expert that says so. And the material you provided listed idioms, but not how they developed. I'm sorry, you haven't given anything to support your case that idioms develop over time and can be traced.

And your "credible" sources also offered nothing but their opinion that husband of one wife is an idiom that just means marital faithfulness regardless of gender- which violate Greek grammar!

It doesn't violate Greek grammar at all. And the opinion of my sources that I have posted is more than you have posted.

And no I don't wish to disqualify anyone.

Seriously? You are denying that your purpose in this thread is to argue that women are disqualified from being priests, when clearly that is exactly what you are doing.

If you believe god is omniscient and omnipresent and time is nothing to HIm, then you would conclude, that if He meant women being ordained, that this writing would be so controversial, He would have to keep conflict from happening over this issue, used different phrasing (of which in the Greek there are many) that would have not precluded women based on this passage. So you are implying God was INspiring something without thinking of the consequences.

That argument works both ways. God could also have inspired someone to write, "Only men can be priests. Only men can be pastors." But he didn't.

Do you also need to know what time of day I asked him? What I was wearing? what was my tone? What did I have for my last meal? I asked He told me and though I did not quote him verbatim, he was not impressed with the work- simply because it tends to highly subjective opinions and not objective linguistic work. Just like your contention that husband of one wife is an idiom butr cannot give any linguistic and historic evidence that it actually is!

Are you saying that you meet in a classroom, in person, with this "Doctor Fruchtenbaum"? And with his bachelors degree in Hebrew and Greek that makes him an expert? "Meh" was his answer?

 

[Philip_B]

And the opinion of my sources that I have posted is more than you have posted.

I suspect @nolidad might win the wordcount, but that is not what is at issue.

 

[Gregorikos]

I suspect you might win the wordcount, but that is not what is at issue.

The point being I have posted the opinions of highly reputable scholars. He has only posted the opinion of himself.

 

[kiwimac]

From the article:
Jennifer O’Malley, 45, and her wife, Elizabeth Carlin, 44, Long Beach, California

I would consider her 'calling' to the priesthood to have the same legitimacy as her marriage

Strangely neither is dependent on your approval.