Women Priests.

Gregorikos

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Digging up some more obscure authors do not help.

I'm sorry you don't know about the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domain edited by JOHANNES P. Louw and EUGENE A. NIDA (United Bible Societies, 1988) But it is far from obscure. It's a standard reference work.

nolidad said:
Aner is a male noun meaning a man. Anthropos is used of mankind.

you will not find a biblical verse using aner in a gander neutral sense.

I've already found you TWO. James 1:8 and Romans 4:8.

Now here's a THIRD:

until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:13 (NASB 2020)

There again, aner applies to both men and women.

nolidad said:
Even if male is the default is irrelavent to the Timothy passage. For aner is not a pronoun but a noun and always is defined as a male or married man. Just like gyne is not a pronoun but a noun and is always defined as woman or married woman! So all your defense here is not germaneto the topic!

YOU are the one that brought up "tis". I was simply explaining YOUR WORD TO YOU.

nolidad said:
When singular it is always males. when used of an unidentified group, the quaternary definition allows for men and women, but here context must determine whether all men or a comingled group!
4:8 is singular- so it is a male! sorry But thems the rules!

There is no such rule. And even if someone claims there is, Romans 4:8 is obviously an exception, because it is quoting Psalm 32:2. The parallelism in this quotation from Psalm 32.1-2 indicates clearly that the reference of ἀνήρ is not a particular male but any person. (Louw & Nida Lexicon)

nolidad said:
And if god inspired "tis" I would agree with you , but He didn't, He inspired aner and it is singular so it is male!

Well if you didn't think God inspired tis, why did you bring it up? (Post 174)

The good news is, God did inspire tis- in 1 Timothy 3:1.


nolidad said:
So just show that being faithful to ones wife preceded "husband of one wife" so that "husband of one wife" became an idiom for meaning being faithful to ones wife. But even granting it is an idiom- it still precludes women from the ministry!YOu cannot have an idiom formed before the phrase it is an idiom of! But even granting it is an idiom which you still have not established. (All you do is give a reason why someone calls it an idiom in the 20th century but not the whys or hows). But even if an idiom- it still does not grant women the right to be in the ministry.

Being faithful to one's spouse is a concept that originated in Eden. (Genesis 2:23-24) so obviously that concept predated the Greek language. So that's another of your arguments that has no merit.
 
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Gregorikos

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That is pure suppostiion on your part with no evidence to support it.

Male may be a default gender for pronouns, not nouns! Aner is male and gyne is female they are not gender neutral nouns butr gender specific nouns.

Paul knew enough of grammar that if he was allowing females into teh ministry he would have used the plural of anthropos and tis to the plural of aner! but tehn I can also swhow those other mysogynisitc verses God inspired Paul to write about women keeping silent in the church and to submit to their husbands and how deacons wives must be grave. all the evidence except the new "egalitarian"cholars are against you!

Nonsense. I gave plenty of evidence. I even gave evidence in English. Here it is again:

You know this to be true. For example, the quote attributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," is in reference to both men and women. Male is the default gender in most languages, including Biblical Greek and older English.

You want some more evidence that male is the default gender?

Here's another example: You have already admitted that "anthropos" can generically refer to both men and women. It appears 559 times in the New Testament, and it is translated man in the KJV 552 times. (99%) That is a clear statement of the obvious- male is the default gender.

Here's another example: "Son"

Old Testament
The fact that bēn carries the general sense of hereditary relationship, and since the Semitic cultures frequently added the father’s name appositionally (X son of Y) to describe heredity, bēn could be used of membership in the extended clan or nation. Thus “sons of Esau” (Deut. 2:4, 12, 22, 29) or “sons of Judah” (Joel 3:6) are tribal designations. Likewise, the frequent expression “Israelites” (NIV) or “children of Israel” (KJV) most often denotes the nation of Israel as a whole (e.g., Exod. 13:2; Jos. 13:6; Ps. 148:14) ...

New Testament
Noun: υἱός (huios), GK 5626 (S 5207), 377x. Similar to the use of ben in the OT, huios describes the son of human parents, though it can also refer more generally to offspring and descendents. It is certainly not limited to the male gender but often has the nuance of “child.” (Mounce's Expository Dictionary)

It's true. It's obvious. And you are wrong again.
 
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nolidad

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I'm sorry you don't know about the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domain edited by JOHANNES P. Louw and EUGENE A. NIDA (United Bible Societies, 1988) But it is far from obscure. It's a standard reference work.


Standard to a small audience
YOU are the one that brought up "tis". I was simply explaining YOUR WORD TO YOU.
Yes it is more gender neutral than aner!


New Testament
Noun: υἱός (huios), GK 5626 (S 5207), 377x. Similar to the use of ben in the OT, huios describes the son of human parents, though it can also refer more generally to offspring and descendents. It is certainly not limited to the male gender but often has the nuance of “child.” (Mounce's Expository Dictionary)

It's true. It's obvious. And you are wrong again.

yes it can but the text requires thedefinition to become simple offspring! YOu should know that but obviously don't.


There is no such rule. And even if someone claims there is, Romans 4:8 is obviously an exception, because it is quoting Psalm 32:2. The parallelism in this quotation from Psalm 32.1-2 indicates clearly that the reference of ἀνήρ is not a particular male but any person. (Louw & Nida Lexicon)

Spiros Zodhiates Greek Scriptures of the NT. Even Strongs shows this:

Transliteration
anēr ἄνθρωπος (G444)
Greek Inflections of ἀνήρ ἄνδρα — 28x
Ἄνδρα — 1x
ἄνδρας — 22x
ἀνδράσιν — 7x
ἄνδρες — 40x
Ἄνδρες — 23x
ἀνδρὶ — 16x
ἀνδρί — 3x
ἀνδρὸς — 10x
ἀνδρός — 6x
ἀνδρῶν — 7x
ἄνερ — 1x
ἀνὴρ — 36x
ἀνήρ — 11x
Ἀνὴρ — 3x
Ἀνήρ — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: man (156x), husband (50x), sir (6x), fellow (1x), not translated (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. with reference to sex
    1. of a male

    2. of a husband

    3. of a betrothed or future husband
  2. with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy

  3. any male

  4. used generically of a group of both men and women
see-GROUP not individual!!!!!!

Obvious you didn't know this.
 
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nolidad

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Well if you didn't think God inspired tis, why did you bring it up? (Post 174)

The good news is, God did inspire tis- in 1 Timothy 3:1.


Yes He did! Then he goes on to describe the qualification this person must have, one of them to be the aner of one gyne.

If Aner and gyne can be used interchangeably as you suggest, then sorry but homosexual and lesbians can be pastors if they are one man man or one woman woman! Can't have your cake without these crumbs!
Being faithful to one's spouse is a concept that originated in Eden. (Genesis 2:23-24) so obviously that concept predated the Greek language. So that's another of your arguments that has no merit.

Yes and in Timothy in order to be a Bishop a man must be faithful to His Wife!

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Once again if aner and gyne can be swapped to mean either sex once again deacons can be gay or lesbian as long as they are faithful. Those are the crumbs you have to eat.

And as the male was the head of the home and understood as such- your faux argument falls with this passage.


Nonsense. I gave plenty of evidence. I even gave evidence in English. Here it is again:

You know this to be true. For example, the quote attributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," is in reference to both men and women. Male is the default gender in most languages, including Biblical Greek and older English.

You want some more evidence that male is the default gender?

Here's another example: You have already admitted that "anthropos" can generically refer to both men and women. It appears 559 times in the New Testament, and it is translated man in the KJV 552 times. (99%) That is a clear statement of the obvious- male is the default gender.

And all thios about anthropos has nothing to do with aner in the singular. Just another smoke screen.
 
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Gregorikos

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Standard to a small audience

Admittedly, the Louw and Nida Lexicon is predominantly used by academics, Bible translators, educated clergy, and others who know how to read Greek. Which explains why you had never heard of it. That does not detract in the least from its prominence, respectability, or accuracy.

yes it can but the text requires thedefinition to become simple offspring! YOu should know that but obviously don't.

Thank you for making my point for me. Greek generically uses the word huios (son) just as Hebrew used ben (son) - oftentimes to refer to either male offspring or a mixture of male and female. That illlustrates my point- male is the default gender in Greek.

Spiros Zodhiates Greek Scriptures of the NT. Even Strongs shows this:

Transliteration
anēr ἄνθρωπος (G444)
Greek Inflections of ἀνήρ ἄνδρα — 28x
Ἄνδρα — 1x
ἄνδρας — 22x
ἀνδράσιν — 7x
ἄνδρες — 40x
Ἄνδρες — 23x
ἀνδρὶ — 16x
ἀνδρί — 3x
ἀνδρὸς — 10x
ἀνδρός — 6x
ἀνδρῶν — 7x
ἄνερ — 1x
ἀνὴρ — 36x
ἀνήρ — 11x
Ἀνὴρ — 3x
Ἀνήρ — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: man (156x), husband (50x), sir (6x), fellow (1x), not translated (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. with reference to sex
    1. of a male

    2. of a husband

    3. of a betrothed or future husband
  2. with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy

  3. any male

  4. used generically of a group of both men and women
see-GROUP not individual!!!!!!

Obvious you didn't know this.

OK Mr "Thems the rules" - you were supposed to back up your claim that "When singular it is always males." I contested that, and gave you a clear example of a singular aner which refers to both male and female, Romans 4:8. You didn't deal with that at all, and instead pasted a bunch of stuff that doesn't help your point.

Now are you ready to concede your error? What about Romans 4:8?

Here now is a FOURTH example of aner used to refer to both males and females, and it too is singular: James 3:2.

Are you now ready to concede your error?
 
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Gregorikos

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Yes He did! Then he goes on to describe the qualification this person must have, one of them to be the aner of one gyne.

Which is an idiom for marital faithfulness, and in no way limits the ministry to men only.

nolidad said:
If Aner and gyne can be used interchangeably as you suggest, then sorry but homosexual and lesbians can be pastors if they are one man man or one woman woman! Can't have your cake without these crumbs!

Oh, so now you want to take it very literally again, huh? In that case Jesus couldn't be a bishop because he wasn't married. Do you see your foolishness?

But fear not, practicing homosexuals and lesbians aren't even acceptable as members of the church, much less the pastorate, because they are committing sexual immorality. (1 Cor 5:11-13) So that is not at all a concern.

nolidad said:
Yes and in Timothy in order to be a Bishop a man must be faithful to His Wife!

Or a woman who is faithful to her husband. (if married.)

nolidad said:
And as the male was the head of the home and understood as such- your faux argument falls with this passage.

The Bible nowhwere says the male is the head of the home. Now go ahead and quote your verse that you think says otherwise, and I'll point out that's not what it actually says. Go ahead. Your turn.

nolidad said:
And all thios about anthropos has nothing to do with aner in the singular. Just another smoke screen.

You are the one that required proof that male is the default gender. I was simply providing ample evidence to help you understand what most people intuitively understand. Now quit complaining about me providing the evidence you asked for.
 
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nolidad

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Thank you for making my point for me. Greek generically uses the word huios (son) just as Hebrew used ben (son) - oftentimes to refer to either male offspring or a mixture of male and female. That illlustrates my point- male is the default gender in Greek.


it is normally son- context will determine if it means something else.

I have come to the realization here that you are chasing academic and minor grammatic points to tryto defend your position!

But Paul was not writing with obscurity or with semantics to His disciples Timothy or Titus. He was writing clearly and openly on instructions for appointing church officials. He used common normal grammar and wrote in the common normal way.

1 Timothy 3
King James Version

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;


these are not grammatic exercies for Paul but simple instructions He is giving to His subordinates.

IN todays English The above would read ( and writing without what you say is the idiom)

"If someone desires the office of a pastor, they desire a good thing! Now a pastor must be faithful to his wife!

That is it.

I have shown you and agreed with you that Greek ios very nuanced and under certain conditions a word can have an alternate reading (and in the case of aner is a quaternary definition and only under plural conditions)

We can argue all the nuances of greek and how in certain cases holds a meaning beyong what is the normal, common and most understood meaning. but it is up to you to show that this passage meets those conditions or rules or nuance or whate er in light of grammar and Pauls other instructions on women in the church and deacons.

So let us leave this rabbit trail and stick to the issue!


Or a woman who is faithful to her husband. (if married.)

so just prove that in this passage and in this case aner which is normally and exclusively translated man in the singular can mean woman and gyne which ALWAYS means woman ( especially married woman) can mean husband.

Just prove it! For 1 Tim. 3:1 No more potentials or possibles or the rare times a word can be used outside of its normal understood meaning!


Which is an idiom for marital faithfulness, and in no way limits the ministry to men only.

Now you are arguing what all your "experts" have not said!


Admittedly, the Louw and Nida Lexicon is predominantly used by academics, Bible translators, educated clergy, and others who know how to read Greek. Which explains why you had never heard of it. That does not detract in the least from its prominence, respectability, or accuracy.

Well my teacher who holds a THD, double masters in Hebrew and Greek and bachelors in Biblical Archeology is vaguely familiar with it and gives it a "meh". It is okay He said. I trust him far more than you. He only reads the NT in Greek now!

The biggest Christian Book Distributor in America has it on sale, and said it sells very few copies annually. So it is not very prominent with teh largest book seller.


Oh, so now you want to take it very literally again, huh? In that case Jesus couldn't be a bishop because he wasn't married. Do you see your foolishness?

Well you started that foolishness, so I am just replying to it!

but now I am asking you to demonstrate that 1 Tim. 3 is a passage that requires aner can mean both men and women and gyne can both mean men and women. No more grammar and experts and opinions 2,000 years removed from the writing.

show why we should take this to mean both sexes in both cases!
 
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Gregorikos

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it is normally son- context will determine if it means something else.

That's my point. It is normally "son." It is literally "son." But very often it can refer to both male and female in a group- " children." So you see the male gender is the default gender when referring to a mixed group of male and female children.

nolidad said:
I have come to the realization here that you are chasing academic and minor grammatic points to tryto defend your position!

Thank you. Another name for that is exegesis.

nolidad said:
But Paul was not writing with obscurity or with semantics to His disciples Timothy or Titus. He was writing clearly and openly on instructions for appointing church officials. He used common normal grammar and wrote in the common normal way.

Correct. And he wrote in a way that Timothy would have understood, using idioms that he probably used himself. The expression he used in 1 Timothy 3:2, 3:12, 5:9, and Titus 1:6 is a common expression on ancient gravestones in the middle east. That is strong evidence that the expression is an idiom of marital faithfulness.

nolidad said:
so just prove that in this passage and in this case aner which is normally and exclusively translated man in the singular can mean woman and gyne which ALWAYS means woman ( especially married woman) can mean husband.

I never said anything like that. This is further proof that you don't understand what an idiom is. And I know you can go to dictionary.com and copy and paste the definition of "idiom" for us, but that doesn't prove you actually comprehend the concept. You continually say things that indicate you don't get it.

nolidad said:
Now you are arguing what all your "experts" have not said!

Nonsense I showed you a lot of experts who said "husband of one wife" is an idiom for marital faithfulness. I don't even know how you can make the claim that none of my experts said it when they all did.

nolidad said:
Well my teacher who holds a THD, double masters in Hebrew and Greek and bachelors in Biblical Archeology is vaguely familiar with it and gives it a "meh". It is okay He said. I trust him far more than you. He only reads the NT in Greek now!

Tell us more. Who is your teacher? How do you engage with her? What, exactly, did she say? How can she hold all those degrees and only be vaguely familiar with Louw and Nida?

nolidad said:
but now I am asking you to demonstrate that 1 Tim. 3 is a passage that requires aner can mean both men and women and gyne can both mean men and women. No more grammar and experts and opinions 2,000 years removed from the writing.

I will tell you again that idioms don't carry the meaning of their individual words, yet I know my reply will fall on deaf ears. (Note: "Fall on deaf ears" is an idiom. This does not imply that my answer will drop out of the sky and hit you on your non-functioning auditory system.)

Maybe one day we will see eye to eye on this. (Note: eye to eye is an idiom. It does not imply physical closeness between us. Please keep your distance. A handshake will do.)

I hope you got a kick out of this. (Note, "getting a kick out of something" is an idiom. It does not refer to contact with anyone's feet.)
 
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nolidad

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That's my point. It is normally "son." It is literally "son." But very often it can refer to both male and female in a group- " children." So you see the male gender is the default gender when referring to a mixed group of male and female children.


And another useless point to make about woman being allowed to pastor!

Thank you. Another name for that is exegesis.

Only in your dreams.

ex·e·ge·sis
/ˌeksəˈjēsis/

noun
  1. critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.
What you do is eisegesis.

Correct. And he wrote in a way that Timothy would have understood, using idioms that he probably used himself. The expression he used in 1 Timothy 3:2, 3:12, 5:9, and Titus 1:6 is a common expression on ancient gravestones in the middle east. That is strong evidence that the expression is an idiom of marital faithfulness.

And you yet to establish that it is an idiom! And no it is not a common expression on gravestones. According to you the expression on gravestones was "faithful to his wife" Get your own story straight.


I never said anything like that. This is further proof that you don't understand what an idiom is. And I know you can go to dictionary.com and copy and paste the definition of "idiom" for us, but that doesn't prove you actually comprehend the concept. You continually say things that indicate you don't get it.

And you continually do not prove this is an idiom! YOu just give soemone elses opinion that it is an idiom and I am supposed to bow to you and the other guys opinion. NO GO.

I still contend Faithful to His wife would be the candidate for the idiom taken from the husband of one wife.


Nonsense I showed you a lot of experts who said "husband of one wife" is an idiom for marital faithfulness. I don't even know how you can make the claim that none of my experts said it when they all did.

Yeah and that is all you brought fro proof! "They said". Idioms are parts of speech that develop over time- show the evidence in time that the husband of one wife is an idiom for a man being faithful to his spouse! Then show the development in time that husband of one wife actually would mean gender neutral faithfulness! Just don't shove another batch of your scholars who say it is and don't give the evidence to support their say so!

Tell us more. Who is your teacher? How do you engage with her? What, exactly, did she say? How can she hold all those degrees and only be vaguely familiar with Louw and Nida?

Make you a deal! You provide teh linguistic development of husband of one wife becoming an idiom for faithful to their spouse and I will give the bio of HIM! Before I divulge I am still waiting for evidence and not just a nother batch of "scholarly opinions"


I will tell you again that idioms don't carry the meaning of their individual words, yet I know my reply will fall on deaf ears. (Note: "Fall on deaf ears" is an idiom. This does not imply that my answer will drop out of the sky and hit you on your non-functioning auditory system.)

I know that-

So show how the husband of one wife which is a very clear and easily understood statement by itself, developed from "faithful to their spouse". Seems to me both can be equated easily.

Now these are true idioms:

40 Commonly Used and Popular English Idioms
  • A blessing in disguise. Meaning: A good thing that initially seemed bad.
  • A dime a dozen. Meaning: Something that is very common, not unique.
  • Adding insult to injury. ...
  • Beat around the bush. ...
  • Beating a dead horse. ...
  • Bite the bullet. ...
  • Best of both worlds. ...
  • Biting off more than you can chew.
These don't carry th emeanings of their original words! ! Timothy certainly does i either ways we see it in English.

Monogamy vs. bigamy or polygamy and monogamy vs. adultery.

Also still waiting for you to show that aner and gyne here are actually used in the rare instances when they can mean either. Also gyne is never shown to be used of as a male person in any known instances- so you need to come up with another obscure reference book.
 
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Albion

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It's as clear as the nose on your face. That's the message, I guess. And that means that a poster here on this revered research project we call CF is virtually alone in understanding the meaning of the original languages. It means that thousands of the best theologians, linguists, etc. throughout all the centuries, the people who produced every Bible translation of note...were completely ignorant of what we've just been told is as simple as recognizing an idiom or reading a grave marker. All of them just "missed it." ;)
 
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nolidad

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Tell us more. Who is your teacher? How do you engage with her? What, exactly, did she say? How can she hold all those degrees and only be vaguely familiar with Louw and Nida?


Well I looked up Louw and Nida. NO wonder they are not well known. ONe just has a split bachelors in Greek, Hebrew and linguistics.

Nida does own a PHD in greek and appears to be a true believer. But as the Father of the Dynamic Equivalence, I now know where I can lay a lot of blame for such a myriad mess in teh church with all them DE bibles.

DE is a form of translating frought with dangers and untestable subjective reasoning and analysis that has enormous biases built in.
 
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SkyWriting

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In my minimum experience women make good Priests; but does the Law allow for women priests; does the law forbid women priest? Does women Priests depend on the law being abrogated? Are women Priests a judgement on the inadequacy of men?
I rarely look inside anyone's pants, so I'm just guessing many times from a distance.
You might be surprised what you see in there.
 
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nolidad

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sparow said:
In my minimum experience women make good Priests; but does the Law allow for women priests; does the law forbid women priest? Does women Priests depend on the law being abrogated? Are women Priests a judgement on the inadequacy of men?

It matters not what the law says- the church is not under the law.

It matters not how great a woman may be as priest or pastor! What matters is what does Scripture say and Scripture says a pastor(bishop) must be the husband of one wife! So it has to be a man!

Same with deacons.

1 Tim. 2:

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Paul points to creation and the fall as the reason for women to not be in church authority! it is not mysoginistic nor patristic, but simply the will of God!
 
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Paidiske

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it is not mysoginistic nor patristic, but simply the will of God!

How very convenient for the misogynists and those who support patriarchy that they can so simply claim the will of God for their hatred and oppression.

Should that not give us reason to pause and assess our confidence in our hermeneutics?
 
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sparow

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I rarely look inside anyone's pants, so I'm just guessing many times from a distance.
You might be surprised what you see in there.

Suppose there was a woman Priest and suppose it was wrong, who would be at fault, the person wearing the pants or the person looking inside the pants?
 
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SkyWriting

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Suppose there was a woman Priest and suppose it was wrong, who would be at fault, the person wearing the pants or the person looking inside the pants?
My church has had woman leaders on and off since I was a child. At least I had the impression they were women. I never thought the gender had any importance, and I was right.
 
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Philip_B

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I took a European Catholic to Midnight Mass at my Anglican Parish Church. The thing that she could not get over was not that the priest was a woman, but rather that she was married to a layman.
 
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SkyWriting

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Suppose there was a woman Priest and suppose it was wrong, who would be at fault, the person wearing the pants or the person looking inside the pants?
I dated a woman who now has her own church. It was high school and I never looked in her pants. Our romance never went that direction. I wish my church had music like this. I'd go back for more.
 
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SkyWriting

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Suppose there was a woman Priest and suppose it was wrong, who would be at fault, the person wearing the pants or the person looking inside the pants?
Sin is all in your mind. It's not a tool for judging others.
 
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nolidad

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How very convenient for the misogynists and those who support patriarchy that they can so simply claim the will of God for their hatred and oppression.

Should that not give us reason to pause and assess our confidence in our hermeneutics?

If misogynists' and those who incorrectly support patriarchy use these verses, that does not make the Word of God wrong, just those who wish to use these verses in an ill way wrong!

No hermeneutics is hermeneutics- regardless of peoples use or abuse of the results.

Should we reassess the lake of fire because a majority of Christendom now reject the concept of eternal torment? NO! Or those who wish to use it as a cudgel to beat people into a cult like submission? NO!
Should we reassess the simple command here because there are some who wish to abuse its instruction? NO!
 
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