Women Pastors

[importunity]

Can a woman be a Pastor?
Why? Or Why Not?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can a woman be a Pastor?
Why? Or Why Not?

There is no reason why a woman should not be a pastor. Aquila and Priscilla both performed a pastoral role in the early church, and they were supported by Paul. They performed a pastoral role for Apollos by giving him guidance about the Christian faith.

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, saying that women should keep silence in church, he was not saying anything about the pastoral ministry. He was talking about general conduct in church fellowship meetings, in fact, the context of the passage is to do with prophecy and tongues - nothing to do with church leadership or ministry. Reading this letter is like hearing one side of a telephone conversation. We have Paul's answers to issues and questions which were raised, but we don't really know what the questions were.

Also, Corinthians was written to 1st Century people, where it was accepted that church leadership was conducted by men. 2000 years later, we are living in a totally different society where the roles of men and women are radically changed. There were a lot of cultural issues that existed in the 1st Century that are irrelevant to us today.

There are two ways of interpreting Scripture. We have to examine who the Scripture was written to, and what their cultural and religious background was. And then we have to decide how this can be applied to us, if at all. For example, worrying about food offered to idols is quite irrelevant to our Western culture, although it might apply to a Christian living in an Eastern pagan culture.

When Paul wrote in Ephesians that women should not teach men, the cultural background was that Ephesus was a female-dominated society. To provent that domination entering into the church, he wrote that women should not dominate men. He did not say that a woman could not be a pastor. He does not mention the pastoral ministry at all. In the normal church structure, there is a board of elders who have the oversight of the church. There is no problem about a woman being an elder of a church. The prohibition is that a woman does not take a position of dominance over the male elders.

Of course, in a team ministry situation, that will not arise, because things are done by consensus. Problems only arise when a person rises up above the others and starts to think he is somebody. A man can have that problem just the same as a woman.

 

[Tamara224]

Can a woman be a Pastor?
Why? Or Why Not?

Yes.

There is no male and female, we are all one in Christ. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and callings according to His will and without regard to man-made prejudices.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Can a woman be a Pastor?
Why? Or Why Not?

Yes . Why ? Because there *are* women pastors .

 

[Svt4Him]

Yes.

There is no male and female, we are all one in Christ. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and callings according to His will and without regard to man-made prejudices.

Although I've not studied the op too much, this statement is misleading, as there are in fact males and females, and both are given different roles. As far as salvation is concerned, there is no bias between male and female, but God certainly knows the difference. Two males use this argument to support homosexuality, but it doesn't hold, as God does view us in our role as a male and a female.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Ancient Christian teaching/Catholic/Orthodox says abundantly clear, "no". Pastoral is a masculine word and as far as Pricilla's concerned, she conducted herself much like a "Mother" would in a convent. Easter Orthodox Christian's call the wife of their Pastor, "Mother." It's a high honor. A man can not become a nun or sister no more than a woman can become a brother, priest or pastor. Now is she a minister? All baptized Christians are called to evangelize and therefore engage in ministry and therefore are ministers. But the ordinariness is given to the bishop, the overseer of the flock under his care.

Shorter answer: She ain't got the stuff, as one funny nun, Mother Angelica, put it on her show once.

 

[Faulty]

Can a woman be a Pastor?
Why? Or Why Not?

What does the scripture say?

 

[Assyrian]

1Tim 3:1 The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.

 

[Faulty]

1Tim 3:1 The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.

The very first qualification of the "whoever" is verse 2, the husband of one wife.

I don't know what the big deal is. Well, I do, it's pride. Women are not called to these offices, and far and away, the vast majority of men are not called to these offices either.

If one is seeking to be in God's will, it's not by forcing oneself into a role that God purposed them not to walk in.

If one desires to be anything and God says "it's not for you", it's pride that says, "I will do so anyway".

 

[Assyrian]

The very first qualification of the "whoever" is verse 2, the husband of one wife.

The problem with that is Paul says the same thing about deacons, 1Tim 3:12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, yet in Romans 16:1 Paul commends Phoebe and call her a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. Being a woman didn't stop Phoebe from being a deacon.

So what was Paul talking about in 1Tim 3? That church leaders must be married men? Hardly. Paul commended being single in 1Cor 9:8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. He would hardly recommend something that disqualified people from church leadership, that would have disqualified Paul himself from church leadership.

Or was Paul simply saying that the men mustn't have more than one wife? Polygamy was an issue in society back then, and contradicted Jesus' teaching on marriage, two shall become one flesh Matt 19:5. It was an issue Paul needed to deal with it in his instruction about church leadership. Go beyond the issue Paul was dealing with here, and not only do you disqualify women like Phoebe, you also disqualify Paul himself.

I don't know what the big deal is. Well, I do, it's pride. Women are not called to these offices, and far and away, the vast majority of men are not called to these offices either.

If one is seeking to be in God's will, it's not by forcing oneself into a role that God purposed them not to walk in.

If one desires to be anything and God says "it's not for you", it's pride that says, "I will do so anyway".

I think it is better to assume our fellow believers are just as sincerely trying to follow the Lord as we are. Otherwise the pride we want to accuse them of may turn out, embarrassingly, to be our own.

 

[Assyrian]

Ancient Christian teaching/Catholic/Orthodox says abundantly clear, "no". Pastoral is a masculine word and as far as Pricilla's concerned, she conducted herself much like a "Mother" would in a convent. Easter Orthodox Christian's call the wife of their Pastor, "Mother." It's a high honor. A man can not become a nun or sister no more than a woman can become a brother, priest or pastor. Now is she a minister? All baptized Christians are called to evangelize and therefore engage in ministry and therefore are ministers. But the ordinariness is given to the bishop, the overseer of the flock under his care.

Shorter answer: She ain't got the stuff, as one funny nun, Mother Angelica, put it on her show once.

Pastor is a masculine noun, but then again so are Christian and disciple, that hardly disqualifies women from being Christians or
disciples of Christ. Deacon is a masculine noun too, yet Paul described Phoebe by the masculine title diakonos.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Pastor is a masculine noun, but then again so are Christian and disciple, that hardly disqualifies women from being Christians or
disciples of Christ. Deacon is a masculine noun too, yet Paul described Phoebe by the masculine title diakonos.

If Jesus wanted female priests, he'd have chosen his mother, Mary Magdalene and several of wonderful women of his time. Just like men can't have babies, women can't be priests. It's a matter of faculties or in this case, physiology. Also, if you do your research about diconate and diaconos you'll find that one is ordained and the other is not. It's very simple. Women were chosen from among the women that were of high character to baptize other women because they stripped naked to do so. It would have been very scandalous for a man to even touch another women so intimately in baptizing her, let alone naked. Check your Jewish customs and courtesies in full force at that time. That's why it was so controversial for Jesus to be at the well with a women, let alone one form her status and multiple husbands at that. Making up stuff is what cafeteria Christians tend to do to fit their beliefs. I just find what they believed from the beginning and try to practice what they believed without testing God.

 

[Jack Bauer]

The very first qualification of the "whoever" is verse 2, the husband of one wife.

I don't know what the big deal is. Well, I do, it's pride. Women are not called to these offices, and far and away, the vast majority of men are not called to these offices either.

If one is seeking to be in God's will, it's not by forcing oneself into a role that God purposed them not to walk in.

If one desires to be anything and God says "it's not for you", it's pride that says, "I will do so anyway".

Yes. A man. But it only deals with the fact that he can only be married to one woman legitimately. He can't be divorced and remarried, even if valid. Later on the Church decided to stop allowing men to become bishops who were married. They were chosen from among the celibates. It's unclear when this began exactly, but property was the issue and the scandals caused from family members of the bishops - meaning which of the property belonged to the Church and which belonged to the Bishop's heirs.

 

[Assyrian]

If Jesus wanted female priests, he'd have chosen his mother, Mary Magdalene and several of wonderful women of his time.

Sorry that doesn't follow. You are assuming Jesus' choice of the twelve was to teach us that priests were supposed to be men. If that wasn't his reason at all, how can you say he should have done it this way or that to show you that you were wrong?

Just like men can't have babies, women can't be priests. It's a matter of faculties or in this case, physiology.

Why does female reproductive system mean women cannot be ministers? What part does male genitalia play in ministry? Women were certainly excluded from the Levitical priesthood, but that is the Old Testament, we are in the New Covenant now and the only priesthoods there are Christ's own high priesthood which is open to no one but Christ, and the priesthood of all believers - which is for all believers male and female.

Also, if you do your research about diconate and diaconos you'll find that one is ordained and the other is not.

Diaconate mean ministry, it is what a diakonos does. Careful with the word ordained, it took on a whole lot of meaning in the centuries after the NT was written that should not be read back into the NT. There was no specific word in the NT for ordination, instead a number of different words were used with a basic meaning of being appointed to a position. Making a distinction between ministries that are 'ordained' an those that are not is reading these ideas back into the NT rather than seeing what the NT itself teaches us.

It's very simple. Women were chosen from among the women that were of high character to baptize other women because they stripped naked to do so. It would have been very scandalous for a man to even touch another women so intimately in baptizing her, let alone naked.

There is no reference to naked baptism in the NT, and while it seem reasonable for modesty sake, that women usually baptised women, there is nothing to suggest the women doing the baptising had to be deacons, or that this was the purpose for having women deacons in the first place. Again you shouldn't read later ideas and practices back into the NT. What we know about Phoebe is that Paul uses the exact same term for her as he did for male deacons, and that her ministry in Cenchreae involved responsibility for visitors to the church like Paul.

Check your Jewish customs and courtesies in full force at that time. That's why it was so controversial for Jesus to be at the well with a women, let alone one form her status and multiple husbands at that.

There were a number of problems there, there was her reputation as you say and being a Samaritan, then there was the question why he would bother talking to a woman, a social convention Jesus kept ignoring. But bigger than that is that they were alone together. I think you would avoid most of your problems with baptising women if they didn't do it on their own and the woman put some clothes on.

Making up stuff is what cafeteria Christians tend to do to fit their beliefs. I just find what they believed from the beginning and try to practice what they believed without testing God.

My problem is the stuff they made up in the centuries after the NT this is why I look to what the NT teaches not the tradition of men.

 

[Tamara224]

If Jesus wanted female priests, he'd have chosen his mother, Mary Magdalene and several of wonderful women of his time.

Hah, He did, actually. Women were the first to preach the resurrection. Women traveled with him, were his disciples and supported his ministry financially. The Samaritan woman at the well preached to her whole village.

Also, all believers are priests in the Kingdom of God.

Just like men can't have babies, women can't be priests. It's a matter of faculties or in this case, physiology.

I'm sorry, are you actually claiming that a penis is necessary for priestly duties in the New Covenant? Can you please give a Scripture reference for this notion?

Also, if you do your research about diconate and diaconos you'll find that one is ordained and the other is not.

Research? That's not in Scripture so....

It's very simple. Women were chosen from among the women that were of high character to baptize other women because they stripped naked to do so. It would have been very scandalous for a man to even touch another women so intimately in baptizing her, let alone naked. Check your Jewish customs and courtesies in full force at that time. That's why it was so controversial for Jesus to be at the well with a women, let alone one form her status and multiple husbands at that.

Jewish customs in Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth and Rome? Amongst the Gentile believers? Probably not.

Making up stuff is what cafeteria Christians tend to do to fit their beliefs. I just find what they believed from the beginning and try to practice what they believed without testing God.

Yeah, and yet you seem to have done the cafeteria thing yourself by leaving "neither male nor female for you are one in Christ" on the buffet and taking only the verses that you like. You've conveniently ignored Galatians 3:28 as well as Romans 16 and women like Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia.

 

[Tamara224]

Although I've not studied the op too much, this statement is misleading, as there are in fact males and females, and both are given different roles. As far as salvation is concerned, there is no bias between male and female, but God certainly knows the difference.

And God knows the difference between Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free, too. But you wouldn't support (I would hope) any claim that one must be Jewish to be a pastor. Galatians is talking to believers and the point of the verse is that IN Christ there are none of those distinctions.

Of course it doesn't mean that men and women become androgynous. But it does mean that there is no service or position in the New Covenant that is restricted to certain types of people.

Two males use this argument to support homosexuality, but it doesn't hold, as God does view us in our role as a male and a female.

This is a strawman argument. I've never seen this verse used to support homosexuality. Homosexuals don't generally think there's no such thing as male and female. They're well aware of that fact.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Hah, He did, actually. Women were the first to preach the resurrection. Women traveled with him, were his disciples and supported his ministry financially. The Samaritan woman at the well preached to her whole village.

Also, all believers are priests in the Kingdom of God.



I'm sorry, are you actually claiming that a penis is necessary for priestly duties in the New Covenant? Can you please give a Scripture reference for this notion?



Research? That's not in Scripture so....



Jewish customs in Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth and Rome? Amongst the Gentile believers? Probably not.



Yeah, and yet you seem to have done the cafeteria thing yourself by leaving "neither male nor female for you are one in Christ" on the buffet and taking only the verses that you like. You've conveniently ignored Galatians 3:28 as well as Romans 16 and women like Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia.

A priest is completely different than what those women were. They were celebates, the first religious community of the Church.

Diaconate means 'servant". WOmen were servants too, However, they were not ordained. That's the difference. THe apostles were not only priests, but also bishops. Think "nesting" downward => episcopate, presbytera/diaconate

Women were not ordained at all. There was one group that did do this, but then later on were absorbed under a bishop that set them aside because they were not supposed to have been ordained. He said that no one should lay hands on women (ordination). Whether or not to accept it is irrelevant to me, I'm Catholic and our community will never ordain women. This has been made abundantly clear. There are many women ministers, they just don't have the faculties to be ordain. In the Catholic Church, only the Bishop, priest and deacon are allowed to give sermons/homilies. Though this line has been cross illicitly in the past, it is still against canon law.

In the Orthodox Church, deacons have a much lower role in the Divine Liturgy. But I hear there are those that they have something equivalent to Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers. The bishops, priest and deacons are the only Ordinary Eucharistic Ministers. Those that are allowed to help are extraordinary, and not to be referred to as Eucharistic Ministers. There are many women that head up many Catholic ministries. But no woman is ever permitted, just as no man is permitted, to preside over the worship service known as the Mass, or Divine Liturgy in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church. Not even a deacon presides over the mass or divine liturgy.

The mass is divided into two main parts: the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the Eucharist. Only the ordained are permitted to read the gospels during the mass. However, there are 2 readings drawn from other scripture that women and men regularly read during mass. Weekdays provide only one reading and the gospel. Easter Vigil Mass has around 15 readings, which is partly why is last for 3 hours. The priest baptizes and confirms catachumen during this time, which takes a long time since there are many in line with their sponsors and godparents. It's very beautiful. Song leaders are often women. They are considered ministers. So if you're Protestant, and you support women ministers, there is no issue.

Hey, if God allowed homosexuality to be okay, I'd be okay with it as well. The best man at my wedding turned out to be homosexual. I have many friends who identify themselves as homosexual or what I call have same sex attraction, a disordered condition. Just as it is disordered for men to act upon their tendencies toward the same sex, or women to do likewise, so too is it considered disordered for women to attempt being a regular minister in the Church. The latter has caused the excommunication of many women in recent years. It's not something that will change, only because it falls under Sacred Tradition and theologically does not work.

Those who propose women as deacons, priests or bishops are not in agreement with Church teaching. But then again, they are probably not even Catholic either. And if they are Catholic then they're push for it is considered heresy.

 

[Laura Phillips]

if shes good at it.

 

[lismore]

if shes good at it.

Hehe. Good point

 

[lismore]

"People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

If we had a woman who would make a good pastor, who loved God and who loved people but is denied that because of her outward appearance. Is this right?

In my experience of Pentecostalism that was their main Achilles heel. Pastoral care (here) was non-existent.

If a woman would make a good pastor then by all means.................

Jesus the good shepherd laid down his life for the sheep, he left the ninety nine and found the lost sheep, bringing it safely home.

That should be the only requirement for a pastor IMO. Do they care for the sheep?