Women pastors, the spirit of whoredom (2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Nice try. I have received education from 4 different universities, including both undergraduate and graduate degrees received. I have studied religion from the great George Forell and Rabbi Holstein, I have studied under more diverse conditions than you can imagine. Irregardless, my education is irrelevant to this discussion.
Your closed minded, dogmatic, ethnocentric approach to scripture is the issue.
I would bet you would be one the first to claim that The Bible is the living Word of God. If so, how come we are still interpreting it from a 2000 year old (and even older) paradigm of reality?
You speak of the devil. You have no idea of what you are talking about. You speak as if the devil is a single entity... Satan or Lucifer or Beelzebub or whomever. There is no single created creature called the devil. "Satan" comes from a Hebrew word that means adversary.... nothing more a or less. An adversary is neither good nor bad, merely one who challenges. If you read Job, "satan" is not a name but a description. He is working with and for God. If you read Genesis, there is no "satan" nor devil... merely a serpent that talks...
In Isaiah, references to Lucifer are a mistranslation in Latin of "son of the morning star"... a reference to a King that thought he was all that. (The "name" son of the morning star is also used to describe Jesus in Revelation.) Not only that, Jesus called Simon "satan"... does that mean Peter was possessed?
Since you know nothing of Biblical references to "the devil" and know nothing about Biblical references to "the bread of life", WHY should anyone give ear to anything you have to say about Biblical refernces to women?
Perhaps it would be better if you wrote nothing about these matters until you learn a little more.

Just by the way.... what does an anti-Catholic site look like? What would a pro-Catholic site look like? Which do you think might be more fair and objective?
 
Upvote 0

LJSGM

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
5,891
353
Wisconsin
✟15,171.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Nice try. I have received education from 4 different universities, including both undergraduate and graduate degrees received. I have studied religion from the great George Forell and Rabbi Holstein, I have studied under more diverse conditions than you can imagine. Irregardless, my education is irrelevant to this discussion.
Your closed minded, dogmatic, ethnocentric approach to scripture is the issue.
I would bet you would be one the first to claim that The Bible is the living Word of God. If so, how come we are still interpreting it from a 2000 year old (and even older) paradigm of reality?
You speak of the devil. You have no idea of what you are talking about. You speak as if the devil is a single entity... Satan or Lucifer or Beelzebub or whomever. There is no single created creature called the devil. "Satan" comes from a Hebrew word that means adversary.... nothing more a or less. An adversary is neither good nor bad, merely one who challenges. If you read Job, "satan" is not a name but a description. He is working with and for God. If you read Genesis, there is no "satan" nor devil... merely a serpent that talks...
In Isaiah, references to Lucifer are a mistranslation in Latin of "son of the morning star"... a reference to a King that thought he was all that. (The "name" son of the morning star is also used to describe Jesus in Revelation.) Not only that, Jesus called Simon "satan"... does that mean Peter was possessed?
Since you know nothing of Biblical references to "the devil" and know nothing about Biblical references to "the bread of life", WHY should anyone give ear to anything you have to say about Biblical refernces to women?
Perhaps it would be better if you wrote nothing about these matters until you learn a little more.

Just by the way.... what does an anti-Catholic site look like? What would a pro-Catholic site look like? Which do you think might be more fair and objective?
Revelation 12

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Revelation 12

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
War in heaven... now there is an interesting concept to explore...

I take it by your reference here that you believe this was a literal historical event. Well, except for the reference to a dragon, of course. That is metaphorical, naturally.

What kind of God do you believe in that allows war in heaven? What kind of God allows powerful evil (a powerful evil God himself created) to disrupt his creation? How much power do you attribute to this "satan" that despite all you believe about him, he can walk right up to Jesus and tempt him? Demons fear Jesus (that's in the New Testament), they flee from him (that's in The New Testament) and "satan" has no power over him (that's in The New Testament) ... and yet... there he is leading Jesus around in the desert, offering him all these temptations... how can that be?
Something seems terribly wrong with your theology.
 
Upvote 0

LJSGM

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
5,891
353
Wisconsin
✟15,171.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
War in heaven... now there is an interesting concept to explore...

I take it by your reference here that you believe this was a literal historical event. Well, except for the reference to a dragon, of course. That is metaphorical, naturally.

What kind of God do you believe in that allows war in heaven? What kind of God allows powerful evil (a powerful evil God himself created) to disrupt his creation? How much power do you attribute to this "satan" that despite all you believe about him, he can walk right up to Jesus and tempt him? Demons fear Jesus (that's in the New Testament), they flee from him (that's in The New Testament) and "satan" has no power over him (that's in The New Testament) ... and yet... there he is leading Jesus around in the desert, offering him all these temptations... how can that be?
Something seems terribly wrong with your theology.
I'm sorry, but this disscussion has gone off topic.

What's your denomination, what does UUMC stand for?

What's your interpretation of Satan, who is he then?
What are angels?

All you've said is that our interpretation is wrong and haven't said what you believe.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm sorry, but this disscussion has gone off topic.

What's your denomination, what does UUMC stand for?

What's your interpretation of Satan, who is he then?
What are angels?

All you've said is that our interpretation is wrong and haven't said what you believe.
UUMC: University United Methodist Church... it is the church I attend.

Who is he is not the proper question. What is the the adversary is the question. Our selfish nature (our "original sin") is that part of us that Paul described when he said... I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I want to... when "Eve" was tempted, she was tempted by her own desires, when "Adam" succombed to "Eve" he did it on his own... there is no devil out there... when we say "the devil made me do it" what we really mean is "I did it. My selfish nature made me do it."
When Jesus taught us to pray, he said "You lead us not into temptation, but you deliver us from evil". That was the acknowledgment that temptation does not come from God but from ourselves. God delivers us from our own mistakes and temptations.

Angels are anyone who delivers God's message. That is what "angel" means... messenger. Angels are not supernatural creatures... if they were, how could they be in danger and in need of protectionn in Sodom or how could Jacob wrestle with them? We are... or can be angels to everyone or anyone we meet.

It is not a case of wrong or right interpretation. It is a case of physical verses spirtual understanding. It appears some believe the Bible to be book about physical things, ( bread and wine, for example) when in reality is about spiritual things, told in physical language. That is why Jesus made such extensive use of parables... symbols and metaphors communicate at a much deeper level than just words.
 
Upvote 0

LJSGM

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
5,891
353
Wisconsin
✟15,171.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
UUMC: University United Methodist Church... it is the church I attend.

Who is he is not the proper question. What is the the adversary is the question. Our selfish nature (our "original sin") is that part of us that Paul described when he said... I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I want to... when "Eve" was tempted, she was tempted by her own desires, when "Adam" succombed to "Eve" he did it on his own... there is no devil out there... when we say "the devil made me do it" what we really mean is "I did it. My selfish nature made me do it."
When Jesus taught us to pray, he said "You lead us not into temptation, but you deliver us from evil". That was the acknowledgment that temptation does not come from God but from ourselves. God delivers us from our own mistakes and temptations.

Angels are anyone who delivers God's message. That is what "angel" means... messenger. Angels are not supernatural creatures... if they were, how could they be in danger and in need of protectionn in Sodom or how could Jacob wrestle with them? We are... or can be angels to everyone or anyone we meet.

It is not a case of wrong or right interpretation. It is a case of physical verses spirtual understanding. It appears some believe the Bible to be book about physical things, ( bread and wine, for example) when in reality is about spiritual things, told in physical language. That is why Jesus made such extensive use of parables... symbols and metaphors communicate at a much deeper level than just words.
Matthew 4

6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

Matthew 4


11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him

Matthew 13

49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

Matthew 22

30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

I just gave a few verses, there are many. These angels seem to be very much "people," they have names, are able to perform physically in the physical realm of humans, and are given commands, act on their own (have free will), and are not human. They are not just metaphorical.

If you want to continue this discussion somewhere else, lets start another thread.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You are correct in the sense that they are "people". However, the conversation is not about physically throwing himself off the high point... it is a metaphor for proclaiming himself "king".
Do you really think that the man Jesus did not have doubts or questions about his role as Messiah? Did he not at the pivotal moment n the Garden ask God what was to be required and if possible to not have to die at the hands of the Romans? This whole desert episode is to illustrate his doubts and humanity.... to purposely show that even Jesus, the Son of God, was tempted to exalt himself... the point ultimately being that temptation comes within and is universal.
You did not address the other ideas I presented.
 
Upvote 0

LJSGM

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
5,891
353
Wisconsin
✟15,171.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
You are correct in the sense that they are "people". However, the conversation is not about physically throwing himself off the high point... it is a metaphor for proclaiming himself "king".
Do you really think that the man Jesus did not have doubts or questions about his role as Messiah? Did he not at the pivotal moment n the Garden ask God what was to be required and if possible to not have to die at the hands of the Romans? This whole desert episode is to illustrate his doubts and humanity.... to purposely show that even Jesus, the Son of God, was tempted to exalt himself... the point ultimately being that temptation comes within and is universal.
You did not address the other ideas I presented.

You are right when you say it is universal. The flesh (which we translate as "sinful nature" for some reason) is something that every man has, and is corrupted from sin (along with the rest of the "physical" world), but not "evil" in it's self. Jesus did have a flesh, that was corrupted (he was not yet ressurrected before his crucifition) and had "desires" that tempt us. But his "temptation" was not of the spirit or the heart, but of the flesh, and was an example to us, those that have recieved a NEW spirit, yet still deal with the flesh.

The flesh is still hungry, thirsty, has sexual arrousal, is subject to disease. Our bodies natually flee any pain, and are drawn to physical pleasure, regardless of our "hearts"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LJSGM

Senior Veteran
May 7, 2006
5,891
353
Wisconsin
✟15,171.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Very good, I agree. I would suggest that sin and selfishness are interchangable terms.
It's not all of the bodie's doing though. There is a "higher" will in us that is evil, that which becomes NEW, through being born again and recieving the HOLY SPIRIT. It is the body that gives some physical desires, but it is the will/heart that decides what to do with them, to perform evil/harm, or to ignore them.
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
71
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
War in heaven... now there is an interesting concept to explore...

I take it by your reference here that you believe this was a literal historical event. Well, except for the reference to a dragon, of course. That is metaphorical, naturally.

What kind of God do you believe in that allows war in heaven? What kind of God allows powerful evil (a powerful evil God himself created) to disrupt his creation? How much power do you attribute to this "satan" that despite all you believe about him, he can walk right up to Jesus and tempt him? Demons fear Jesus (that's in the New Testament), they flee from him (that's in The New Testament) and "satan" has no power over him (that's in The New Testament) ... and yet... there he is leading Jesus around in the desert, offering him all these temptations... how can that be?
Something seems terribly wrong with your theology.

There is something wrong with your own theology if you can so easily dismiss what is clearly there for you in black and white.

Your words ring hollow to me from here on in.

Luke 10:17 Jesus Himself speaking,
“Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
71
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
UUMC: University United Methodist Church... it is the church I attend.

Who is he is not the proper question. What is the the adversary is the question. Our selfish nature (our "original sin") is that part of us that Paul described when he said... I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I want to... when "Eve" was tempted, she was tempted by her own desires, when "Adam" succombed to "Eve" he did it on his own... there is no devil out there... when we say "the devil made me do it" what we really mean is "I did it. My selfish nature made me do it."
When Jesus taught us to pray, he said "You lead us not into temptation, but you deliver us from evil". That was the acknowledgment that temptation does not come from God but from ourselves. God delivers us from our own mistakes and temptations.

Angels are anyone who delivers God's message. That is what "angel" means... messenger. Angels are not supernatural creatures... if they were, how could they be in danger and in need of protectionn in Sodom or how could Jacob wrestle with them? We are... or can be angels to everyone or anyone we meet.

It is not a case of wrong or right interpretation. It is a case of physical verses spirtual understanding. It appears some believe the Bible to be book about physical things, ( bread and wine, for example) when in reality is about spiritual things, told in physical language. That is why Jesus made such extensive use of parables... symbols and metaphors communicate at a much deeper level than just words.


Angels are indeed a supernatural creation of God. They are a higher order than humanity.

We will NEVER be angels, as many feeble-minded people choose to fancy. You seem to have adopted a strange mix of theological truth and new age thinking...along with who knows what? Dangerous.
 
Upvote 0

JWNEWMAN

Senior Veteran
Oct 6, 2006
5,182
136
✟21,154.00
Faith
Christian
UUMC: University United Methodist Church... it is the church I attend.

Who is he is not the proper question. What is the the adversary is the question. Our selfish nature (our "original sin") is that part of us that Paul described when he said... I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I want to... when "Eve" was tempted, she was tempted by her own desires, when "Adam" succombed to "Eve" he did it on his own... there is no devil out there... when we say "the devil made me do it" what we really mean is "I did it. My selfish nature made me do it."
When Jesus taught us to pray, he said "You lead us not into temptation, but you deliver us from evil". That was the acknowledgment that temptation does not come from God but from ourselves. God delivers us from our own mistakes and temptations.

Angels are anyone who delivers God's message. That is what "angel" means... messenger. Angels are not supernatural creatures... if they were, how could they be in danger and in need of protectionn in Sodom or how could Jacob wrestle with them? We are... or can be angels to everyone or anyone we meet.

It is not a case of wrong or right interpretation. It is a case of physical verses spirtual understanding. It appears some believe the Bible to be book about physical things, ( bread and wine, for example) when in reality is about spiritual things, told in physical language. That is why Jesus made such extensive use of parables... symbols and metaphors communicate at a much deeper level than just words.
These arguments boil down to ego. I'm right, blah, blah, blah, and you're wrong for these reasons, blah, blah, blah, and are most often not edifying.

I couldn't accept your definitions because of my experiences. Were it not for those I suppose I could never make up my mind. However, I've seen physical manifestations of demons in people and have witnessed the power demons wield through those who give themselves over to occult practices. Also the opposite, I've seen God heal on numerous times and witness the power of His Word perform miracles.

War in heaven, yes, and there is spiritual warfare right here and now. Intellectualizing scripture and turning it into myth only sucks the life out of it.

What kind of God? Good question... answer also, what kind of God allows all the suffering we see here in the earth to continue? Well, if you believe the scriptures, you decide a just God, why, because you believe the scriptures which declare it to be so.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
56
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟44,388.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Revelation 12

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Bravo! :thumbsup:

But you are fighting a battle with someone adept at lies and misdirection.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There is something wrong with your own theology if you can so easily dismiss what is clearly there for you in black and white.

Your words ring hollow to me from here on in.

Luke 10:17 Jesus Himself speaking,
“Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!
Who was he talking to and what had they just told him they had done?

Angels are indeed a supernatural creation of God. They are a higher order than humanity.

We will NEVER be angels, as many feeble-minded people choose to fancy. You seem to have adopted a strange mix of theological truth and new age thinking...along with who knows what? Dangerous.

So how does Jacob wrestle with them and why does Lot have to protect them from the Sodomites?

These arguments boil down to ego. I'm right, blah, blah, blah, and you're wrong for these reasons, blah, blah, blah, and are most often not edifying.

I couldn't accept your definitions because of my experiences. Were it not for those I suppose I could never make up my mind. However, I've seen physical manifestations of demons in people and have witnessed the power demons wield through those who give themselves over to occult practices. Also the opposite, I've seen God heal on numerous times and witness the power of His Word perform miracles.

War in heaven, yes, and there is spiritual warfare right here and now. Intellectualizing scripture and turning it into myth only sucks the life out of it.

What kind of God? Good question... answer also, what kind of God allows all the suffering we see here in the earth to continue? Well, if you believe the scriptures, you decide a just God, why, because you believe the scriptures which declare it to be so.


God doesn't "allow" suffering... we do. We cause it and we allow it to continue because of people like you who just keep waiting for Jesus to come again and make everything better... or to die so you can be in heaven (The kingdom of God is neither here nor there, but inside you).

As to your war in heaven... I take it you realize that it is not a physical place, just like hell is not a physical place. It is spiritual. What magic spell made spiritual creatures physical?
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ah, yes, even still, our captain is greater then our enemy, and we, trusting in Him, having no illusions about ourselves are victorious every time.
Yeah... every time... tell that to all the Protestants and Jews the Inquisition executed. Tell that to all the starving people in Africa and India. Tell that to Father Romeo and Martin Luther King Jr.
You live in an all too comfortable American Christianity that is very little like The Followers of the Way. You are a religion of survivors, with no thought or regard for those that have died or given up so much so you could have your literal comic book theology.
Pray for me. Pray that God will show me the truth. Pray that I will not be able to withstand the power of The Holy Spirit to make me like you.
In the meantime, I will continue to point out that you worship a book. Yes, you know a book, you know it well. Well, too bad. God is not a book.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Armistead

Veteran
Aug 11, 2007
1,852
91
60
NC
✟2,439.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Yeah... every time... tell that to all the Protestants and Jews the Inquisition executed. Tell that to all the starving people in Africa and India. Tell that to Father Romeo and Martin Luther King Jr.
You live in an all too comfortable American Christianity that is very little like The Followers of the Way. You are a religion of survivors, with no thought or regard for those that have died or given up so much so you could have your literal comic book theology.
Pray for me. Pray that God will show me the truth. Pray that I will not be able to withstand the power of The Holy Spirit to make me like you.
In the meantime, I will continue to point out that you worship a book. Yes, you know a book, you know it well. Well, too bad. God is not a book.

How do you learn about God, by what source, if any?
How do you build your opinion on God, if you have no source?

We all can accept God by his creation. Without the bible, many people followed God in some sense..like the indians calling him the great spirit.

The reason Christians use the bible is not just because it is a book. It is a book that has proven itself..if you truly study it. It is God showing himself to man. Certainly, there are some minor errors during the translation, but it doesn't take away the major truths.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.