Women ordained in the Baptist Church

[RaginCajun88]

I would be interested to know how women came to be ordained into ministry in the Baptist church. I personally think this is unbiblical and would be interested in your views.

That’s the impression I've always gotten.

 

[2LivIsChrist]

Yea, i don't agree with it. My church is thinking of having women elders. What do you guys think of this? I don't think this is right either.

 

[RajunCajun86]

Yea, i don't agree with it. My church is thinking of having women elders. What do you guys think of this? I don't think this is right either.

female elders - not Biblical
female pastor - not Biblical
female deacons - arguable

 

[Erinwilcox]

I was talking with a friend from work about a year ago. She is very sweet and a true lover of God. However, the topic of female elders/pastors came up and she was telling me how blessed she'd been by some woman pastor. As I proceeded to tell her that Paul said in 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence, she gaped at me and said, "But Erin, that was just Paul!" In astonishment I reminded her of 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God might be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Is this how many people view that scripture? That it was only Paul talking to Timothy a long time ago and that that really wasn't what God meant by that? My Bible tells me that Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Jesus is God. Therefore, God is the same yesterday, and today, and forever. By extending that line of reasoning, has God's command, given in the new covenant, or His will changed in regard to having women teach? Or has our culture become so corrupt that it cries for "Feminine equality!" "Let the women preach becaus they are equal to men!" and the church so weakened that it has thrown in the towel so as not to awaken the wrath of the feminist movement? Or am I just some old-fashioned girl holding onto idealistic views of the past who is unwilling to give up an old tradition?

 

[RajunCajun86]

no you just believe the Bible
venture on over to the "is the Bible perfect" thread and see if that enlightens you as to how people read Scripture

 

[Erinwilcox]

no you just believe the Bible
venture on over to the "is the Bible perfect" thread and see if that enlightens you as to how people read Scripture

Um, yeah. . .I had to go through all eighteen or so pages of it today.

 

[edie19]

I was talking with a friend from work about a year ago. . . . . . she gaped at me and said, "But Erin, that was just Paul!" In astonishment I reminded her of 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God might be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Is this how many people view that scripture? That it was only Paul talking to Timothy a long time ago and that that really wasn't what God meant by that? . . . .

As a woman who once considered the pastorate I have to be honest and say that I used that rationale - after all, it wasn't like Jesus the Christ said that women shouldn't be pastors. Consider the fact that Christ totally discounted traditional women's roles of the day - He first declared Himself the Messiah to a woman (a foreigner at that ), He first appeared as the risen Christ to a woman, He encouraged women to learn from His teachings (Mary of Bethany). Of course He would want women to be pastors.

However, as I studied Scripture - really studied I came to realize that I was wrong - plain and simple. I also realized that the denominations that would ordain me were denominations that water down the rest Gospel also and I wouldn't want to pastor a church in them.

Has it been an easy lesson - not at all, it is one I still struggle with. I've come to realize that in my humaness I might never totally understand why I can't lead a church, why I feel a call that won't be fulfilled. However, I also realize that's my human nature talking and that I can, in fact, do a lot with the love of Scripture and theology that God has blessed me with. So, while I don't always understand, it is a Scriptural fact that I can accept.

edie

 

[Erinwilcox]

As a woman who once considered the pastorate I have to be honest and say that I used that rationale - after all, it wasn't like Jesus the Christ said that women shouldn't be pastors. Consider the fact that Christ totally discounted traditional women's roles of the day - He first declared Himself the Messiah to a woman (a foreigner at that ), He first appeared as the risen Christ to a woman, He encouraged women to learn from His teachings (Mary of Bethany). Of course He would want women to be pastors.

However, as I studied Scripture - really studied I came to realize that I was wrong - plain and simple. I also realized that the denominations that would ordain me were denominations that water down the rest Gospel also and I wouldn't want to pastor a church in them.

Has it been an easy lesson - not at all, it is one I still struggle with. I've come to realize that in my humaness I might never totally understand why I can't lead a church, why I feel a call that won't be fulfilled. However, I also realize that's my human nature talking and that I can, in fact, do a lot with the love of Scripture and theology that God has blessed me with. So, while I don't always understand, it is a Scriptural fact that I can accept.

edie

Thanks, Edie. Your perspective really helped me. May God continue to bless you for obeying and following Him!

 

[JacobHall86]

Emotional? HA! As if I have the time or the inclination to worry about this, let alone be emotional. One thing I am fully faithful of, God has this under control. Patronizing me will not prompt me to "argue" with you. There is a difference between argument and debate and discussion. Just a reminder, arrogance and condescension are not something the bible teaches.

You chose to view something, plainly in sight without spiritual discernment. It never ceases to amaze me how someone can look at something, see that it exists, yet claim it does not. That God would not do that, because it is not in the Bible. Then those of use that do study and see clearly it is in the Bible are accused of twisting scripture to suit. Not everything is in the Bible. But we can get a good idea of how to view things; there are some fundamental truths that should never be compromised. Namely for starters loving God, loving others, and sharing the gospel. The Holy Spirit being sexist is not part of that. There is nothing one can say any further to your shortsightedness. My thought to you would be to do as your told, search the scriptures daily to see if it is so, it is God, not I whom promises wisdom and knowledge liberally when someone is earnestly seeking.

If truth be told, I worry about those whose hearts are telling them this is incorrect but continue to see others pushing this cultural mandate causing them confusion. I am here to tell them there are women that God uses clearly and it is not sinful, the men around them are not sinful, they are good Christians also all learning and growing working on their own salvation as they are instructed as Spiritual Heirs.

Surveying the situation, the more men continue to not search for the truth, and continue this pattern, women are outnumbering you, and I see a grand clash in the church, which has already begun. Not that I agree with it, but the truth comes to light in many ways. Part of the responsibility-bestowed men is to lift their wives up (and vice versa). The responsibility given to Christians is to lift each other up. There is no variation to that truth. We are spiritual equals there is but one leader - God. Christ heads the church. You men need to open your eyes and step up to the plate too.

Have you actually read what I wrote? I said you are better than an emotional appeal and can make a better point. There is a differance between somone being emotional and appealin to someones emotions.

BTW, if you can discuss or debate or argue this without automatically assuming I dont read the Bible and dont study Scripture simply because i disagree with what you say would be awesome. Thanks.

 

[Erinwilcox]

People can be equals and yet have separate, God-given roles/duties.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I also realized that the denominations that would ordain me were denominations that water down the rest Gospel

By and large it is the weak watered down denominations that easily succumb to questionable practices, female pastors, leaders, homosexuality, watered down versions of the bible (eg the NIV), condoning divorce, approving same sex unions, advocating a one world religion, etc.


Edie has a very valid point. and, carried to its conclusion, they are doing this in an effort to combat the attritionism within their own denominational ranks as those that move on seek stronger meatier more truthful teaching.


Thus those denominations appeal (read: advertise) to the weaker fleshy carnal minded who by their actions deny that true repentence, a heartfelt desire to turn from their sinful lustful ways, is a prerequisite to salvation.


Hence, their churches, being run more as businesses seeking greater numbers desiring increased income in exchange for decreased quality, have become an abomination being filled with those preferring instead to worship the creation, i.e. themselves, instead of the creator.


Worship: verb: to love unquestioningly and uncritically.

 

[JacobHall86]

People can be equals and yet have separate, God-given roles/duties.

QFT.

 

[RaginCajun88]

(11) A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. (12) I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (13) For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1 Timothy 2:11-13

If a woman is ordained so she is able to take part in women’s ministry then I don’t see anything wrong with that. But if she is placed in a position of authority over men then that is not biblical and should not be allowed.

 

[Erinwilcox]

(11) A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. (12) I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (13) For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1 Timothy 2:11-13

.

Just a quick question here that maybe somebody much wiser than I could answer:

When Paul said "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" did he mean:

A. I do not permit a woman to teach men or to have authority over them

B. I do not permit a woman to teach period AND
Women cannot have authority over a man

Because then it says that it was Eve who was deceived, not Adam. Therefore, could it be that since Eve was deceived that women are not to teach at all? The text does say "she must be silent." Does it say, "Silent when men are present?" Take the "or" part out of the verse for a minute...could it read, grammatically speaking,: For I do not permit a woman to teach; she must be silent.
1Ti 2:14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


As far as I can see it, the text says nothing about it being okay for women to teach other women in the church. . .it only says that she must be silent and that she was formed second and that she was deceived.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I know that I rambled on quite a bit and jumped around a lot, but it was rather hard to put into words. . .

 

[Ringo84]

No one is saying women are less saved or less used by God, only that it is clear that they are not to teach men or have authority over men. If you look at all the Scriptures you will see that to be consistent with Gods design of government..starting at home and going from there...starting in Genisis

And I believe that you're wrong. It's a narrow view of Scriptures that are to be interpreted - not simply taken for every black-and-white word.

That may be the way they did things in patriarchal Bible society, but they did a lot of things back in Bible society that we don't do today. We're a priesthood of believers, and that priesthood can include women just as it does men, blacks, Asians, Mexicans, or anyone else who feels led to preach.

I'm still not convinced not because I'm necessarily close-minded or "my mind is made up" (though it is prety much made up). It's because the only thing you've given me as "evidence" to your claims are absolute, literal interpretations of verses written by an imperfect man in a sexist society.

Women can be ordained to be pastors, and rightly so.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

Our deacons actually don't make any decisions. They just ensure things get done, all decisions are made in our quarterly business meetings by vote of the membership. They do bring concerns and options to the attention of the elders and the membership..for example, the parking lot has a drainage issue we can do A, B, or C...discussion and Q and A...vote or delay while more research is done. Deacons just do the leg work and allow the elders to focus on spiritual leadership and duties. At least in our church

We're arguing semantics; splitting hairs. It's a red herring. Deacons are leaders of the church and that's that. No, they aren't ordained. But they are as much leaders as the pastor.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

female elders - not Biblical
female pastor - not Biblical
female deacons - arguable

Well, that's your opinion. You're entitled to be wrong.
Ringo

 

[mont974x4]

People can be equals and yet have separate, God-given roles/duties.

Exactly

 

[JacobHall86]

And I'm telling you that you're wrong. Dead wrong. It's a narrow, dim little view of Scriptures that are to be interpreted - not simply taken for every black-and-white word.

That may be the way they did things in patriarchal Bible society, but they did a lot of things back in Bible society that we don't do today. We're a priesthood of believers, and that priesthood can include women just as it does men, blacks, Asians, Mexicans, or anyone else who feels led to preach.

I'm still not convinced not because I'm necessarily close-minded or "my mind is made up" (though it is prety much made up). It's because the only thing you've given me as "evidence" to your claims are absolute, literal interpretations of verses written by an imperfect man in a sexist society.

Women can be ordained to be pastors, and rightly so.
Ringo

Ringo, you have not given any evidence as to why women should be pastors. Thats the bottom line. That Imperfect Man was inspired by God to write what he did. I happen to think God is powerful enough to keep things he wants out of his Bible.

You have given zero reasons that the Scriptures referred to ar wrong, and even less evidence as to why Women should be ordained.

Jacob

 

[Ringo84]

I was talking with a friend from work about a year ago. She is very sweet and a true lover of God. However, the topic of female elders/pastors came up and she was telling me how blessed she'd been by some woman pastor. As I proceeded to tell her that Paul said in 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence, she gaped at me and said, "But Erin, that was just Paul!" In astonishment I reminded her of 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God might be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Is this how many people view that scripture? That it was only Paul talking to Timothy a long time ago and that that really wasn't what God meant by that? My Bible tells me that Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Jesus is God. Therefore, God is the same yesterday, and today, and forever. By extending that line of reasoning, has God's command, given in the new covenant, or His will changed in regard to having women teach? Or has our culture become so corrupt that it cries for "Feminine equality!" "Let the women preach becaus they are equal to men!" and the church so weakened that it has thrown in the towel so as not to awaken the wrath of the feminist movement? Or am I just some old-fashioned girl holding onto idealistic views of the past who is unwilling to give up an old tradition?

Let the women teach because they are as led by God to follow His church as men.

What are we going to do? Require women to not speak up in church? That's ridiculous. That verse is about talking during church. It's a stretch to use that verse to "put women in their place". Their place is the pulpit!
Ringo