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Women learning about women of the Bible

Discussion in 'Spiritual Formation & Disciplines' started by LynnSmith, Apr 26, 2019.

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  1. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    It's just that issues related to the sexes can be - shall we say contentious? - for some. And some have hurt feelings that continue to come up. Just trying to head that off in a forum area that is supposed to be edifying. :)
     
  2. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    No, I do not believe so but the authors of the Bible, coming as they did from a patriarchal culture, certainly were.

    Every single Christian is a heretic to some other Christian. I no longer worry about my heretical beliefs --- or yours.
     
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  3. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in 1 Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (1 Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (1 Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

    When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was simply part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himself seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  4. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    . You do know that no true Scotsman arguments are rather pointless. My denomination accepts and promotes female clergy . We’ve had a female archbishop
     
  5. LynnSmith

    LynnSmith Well-Known Member

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    Last thing I want is that. I have a question about tithing that I decided I dare not ask on CF. No need to cause arguments. Never something I would set out to do.
     
  6. LynnSmith

    LynnSmith Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful seeing what a man learns from the women. Thank you!!!!!
     
  7. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the informative post, JackRT. I really enjoyed it and will print it out to reflect on it some more.

    I never thought I'd say this earlier in my life, but am coming to realize this is probably more in line with Scripture as originally written than a view to the contrary.

    Once I realized the bizarre translation provided in the KJV for 1 Tim 2:12 (again, a Greek Lexicon was my friend!), I realized Paul's intent might have been quite different than I had previously understood.

    It's a journey I'm still traveling. Realizing that 1 Cor 11:3 is devoid of the bondage many faith traditions impose to it was the first step.
     
  8. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Well you can ask but the whole thing is WHERE you ask. Many questions are suited to General Theology, for example, but are almost assured to devolve into various debates there. Some forums are not for debate but edification.

    You MIGHT ask in Christian Advice, which is also not for debate, but it often comes up there and it's hard for there to be enough of us to monitor and keep things in line.
     
  9. LynnSmith

    LynnSmith Well-Known Member

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    Thanks!
     
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Also, Lynn, we have how Mary stayed at the feet of Jesus, while her sister Martha was running around busy because she was troubled about many things >

    Luke 10:38-42

    And then Martha actually tried to interfere with Jesus and Mary's relationship, by telling Jesus to make Mary help Martha. But Jesus stood up for Mary. Mary was the wise one who rested and shared personally with Jesus who is our Groom. Jesus says she chose the good thing and it shall not be taken away from her.

    So, if you are with Jesus, resting in Him and staying with Him and learning from Him, you have Jesus Himself standing up for you!!! And so, we men are wise to be able to know a real woman when we see one, and stand up for her.

    And Jesus wants me to love ladies, by also encouraging them to rest in Jesus, and stand up for them getting the right rest. And when we have serving going on, at our church, a leader might encourage ladies to make sure they have spent their time sharing with ones who are good for them, and ones whom they are helping, before they jump into serving.

    But, in my opinion, we do have certain ladies who can be foolish so they are getting into too much; and their lack of self control in serving can also be a shortcoming for having self control and wisdom in relating and financial matters. So, we need to pray with tender compassion for them, while we ourselves need to grow, ourselves, and not let ourselves get flustered and fluttering around and frustrated.

    @Brightmoon > But this requires how a woman needs to become for real with Jesus, so she can benefit from how Jesus and godly men will stand up for her. Instead, Satan would have us supposing God's word is anti-women, so we miss all His word says to honor and help Christian ladies.

    Ones fear submission, by the way, because this world does have different sorts of slavery.

    I wrote >
    But @Brightmoon > Bright Moon wrote something below to correct me, on this. A woman is not necessarily trying to please foolish men, if she makes herself look good. I am always saying to let each person speak for oneself; yet, I made a statement which does not necessarily fit all feminists. But yes I think it is possible for someone to try to get on the good side of the wrong person. But not all do this.

    But Jesus and God's word stand up against catering to ones who want to just use you. And we see how a for-real lady can help a man get real with God > 1 Peter 3:1-4 < and it is good for me a man to know this, so I can pass this scripture on to wives who might have problems in their homes.

    And, by the way . . . not to get off track from what I was saying about submission > leaders are ordered not to lord ourselves over . . . anyone >

    "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

    So, to me this means a leader who is a guy needs to be an example of how ladies need to be submissive!!! He a leader needs to take the lead in all which God's word requires of us men and our sisters and our children. We ourselves need to be submissive to God Himself, in His "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30); but un-subject women can have a way of running themselves around in what is not the rest of Jesus.

    Therefore, we need to stand up for our ladies doing only what Jesus has them doing in His soul-soothing rest, and test if and how Jesus guides them to do things we direct them to do. Because we all first are in submission to Christ guiding us all as one, more and better.

    Submission, then, means with Jesus our Groom. And Mary knew how to relate with Jesus; she submitted to Him and so she had companionship with Jesus Himself.

    But there are women who are trying to use men for what they want, and the bait they use is what attracts foolish men.

    The bait you use can be what chooses the fish you catch.

    But I have the example of real ladies of Jesus, how they have compassion with hope for women who are ruined and do not know how to love. And I have such ladies so I can keep feeding on their example of how spoiled women can become. These are submissive, but they are not foolish.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even in English, I consider the word "over". There is a big difference between teaching "over" a person, versus sharing as a tenderly loving companion. Men also need to not teach "over" >

    "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)
     
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  12. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    I’ll disagree with thinking a Feminist cares about how men view her . If she thinks she looks good then she’ll dress that way . I’ve seen highly educated women told to dumb themselves down in order to make men feel good about themselves. Also told to handicap themselves by not wearing eyeglasses because it makes them look too smart. Not wearing high heels because they’d then be “too” tall . Athletes told that they’re too muscular to be feminine . Thank God I haven’t seen too much of this nonsense recently but it’s still out there. My take on it is if women are seen as competent then they get put down or called names .... or told to be submissive. Sorry not buying !
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  13. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    Here is an interesting take on the story of Mary and her sister Martha. Martha is scurrying around preparing a meal and is getting a little overheated because Mary is sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to him teach. Martha comes to Jesus and asks him to tell Mary to get up and help her. The fact that she asked Jesus rather than going directly to her sister says something in and of itself. In that culture a married woman could be directed only by her husband. To go to the wife directly when her husband is present would be an insult to the husband in that very patriarchal society. We can draw each of us our own conclusions here. And yes I do believe that Mary the Magdalene and Mary of Bethany are the same person.
     
  14. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Patriarchal does not mean misogynistic.

    The fact that parents are over their children does not mean they hate their children. Order is not hate.
     
  15. Endeavourer

    Endeavourer Well-Known Member

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    Back to the thread topic:

    I love to read the book of Acts. The integration of both men and women in the labors of spreading the gospel is very encouraging and validating as to women's equal value in contending for others in the Lord.
     
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  16. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    This is true but without patriarchy I suspect that the incidence of misogyny would be far less.
     
  17. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Yes... and without rains the incidence of floods would be far less... but still, its good as it is and arranged by God to be so.
     
  18. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    It took me a long time to realize that patriarchy is entirely cultural and that without it we would have a far better society.
     
  19. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    These reasons for patriarchy are independent on place, time and culture:

    1) The creation order:
    A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
    1Tm 2:11

    2) Because Eve was deceived, not Adam:
    And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
    1Tm 2:14

    3) Woman was created for man, not man for woman:
    "Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man."
    1Cor 11:9

    4) Women are weaker (so they need leadership and protection of men)
    1Pet 3:7


    ------

    But the topic of the thread is not this one...
     
  20. Romans 8

    Romans 8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Best thing you to do is find some examples that fit your biased perception in order to justify your opposition to God's order. Great idea.
     
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