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Featured Women in Leadership

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Aviela, Apr 15, 2019.

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  1. PloverWing

    PloverWing Episcopalian

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    There doesn't have to be a reason -- like strength or fitness for leadership -- to get us to the situation of male leadership in the church. The ancient Christian church arose in a culture in which certain hierarchies were taken for granted: men over women, masters over slaves, rulers over subjects. The ancient church mostly kept these structures in place (although with an emphasis that those in power should exercise their power benevolently and sacrificially, after the example of Jesus). The later church didn't want to overturn too many precedents from the early church, lest important spiritual truths from the early church be lost. Hence, male leadership persisted, out of this kind of caution.

    I agree with you that the Catholic and Orthodox churches are guided by the Holy Spirit, and have been since the beginning. I believe that my church and the other Protestant churches are guided by the Spirit as well. Discerning which parts of the church's life are the Spirit's guidance and which parts are human cultural values is not easy. Your church leans toward conserving more things, and my church tends to reform more things. At the Last Day, we will presumably find out where we have discarded things we ought to have kept, and kept things we ought to have discarded.
     
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  2. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    "...My older sister has had authority over me my whole life...

    Joking (kind of) aside, I am moving to a region where the only like-minded fellowship I can find, has, as their "senior pastor", a woman. So, this topic is important to me. Now, I am not even sure that the whole "churchianity" type set up is still effectual in today's information age and I lean towards the small organic "cluster" (I like to call us), where each member is free to exercise their gifts. A question I have is, if Paul prohibited women from preaching or from being an elder, wouldn't it follow that they would not have these spiritual gifts...if it was in harmony with the Spirit's will? If so, there must be a way to prove (discern) whether or not what we are seeing is counterfeit. Also, we should consider that the issue is "having authority over men (or a man)", so I believe women can have these genuine spiritual gifts to instruct other women and children...?"

    I said this too...on the missing thread.
     
  3. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    Why?
     
  4. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    What exactly do you mean by this?
     
  5. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any verse connecting men's leadership to men's "bigger lust"?
     
  6. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    I'll have to dig.
     
  7. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    I think we may find that most references to lust in the Bible involve men. The whole David and Bathsheba account, for one. I can't recall any account of a woman...wait, I take that back...I believe Potiphar's wife looked upon Joseph with lust, but that is all I can think of at the moment. If we do some research and find that the lust of the eyes is something that men are more prone to struggle with, I don't think that it is unreasonable to suggest that this may be a reason that women are discouraged from having visible leadership roles. Some principles in Scripture may be by implication.

    *Of course I'm not saying that women do not lust with their eyes also.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  8. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    True biblical reasons for the submission of woman and leadership of man are:

    a) man was created first (submission because of the creation order)
    b) woman is from man (submission because of the origin)
    c) woman was deceived, not man (submisison because of being easily deceived)

    These three are actually in the New Testament given as reasons. Until these reasons stands, the submission of woman stands.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  9. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

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    Yes, those are explicit.

    And this could also be an implied and practical possibility.

    *Especially, given that we are still in these corruptible bodies.
     
  10. xtitech

    xtitech New Member

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    I posted this before, but it seems to have disappeared.

    The thread raises the question as to whether we should have ANY officials at all. This is a more basic question than whether the officials may be women.

    Jesus describes an egalitarian structure, where the only authority figure is Christ himself:

    "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren." (Matthew 23:8).

    This egalitarian structure seems to have still be the norm around A.D. 55, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians:

    "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." (1 Corinthians 14:6).

    By A.D. 60, we have specialized functions:

    "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" (Ephesians 4:11).

    Note that "pastor" appears to be simply one function among many, not the function in charge of everyone else.

    But then by A.D. 65, we have "officials" in charge of everyone else -- the elders or overseers of the Pastoral Epistles.

    So between A.D. 55 and A.D. 65 there is a rapid drift away from Jesus' original commandment to all be equals.
     
  11. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I agree that both men and women should be in leadership positions, but I would say that all the positions you listed should be open to both sexes. Fortunately many denominations (like mine) ordain women. Those who favor female ordination should join those churches. Those who do not favor female ordination should join churches that do not ordain women.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  12. Tone

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    Oh yeah, I remember this. And then I said something like:

    I think somewhere along the way, the gift of "administrations" got overemphasized. This was probably due to, as someone else mentioned, literacy rates, and may have been the main factor for the whole clergy (cleric)/laity divide...something like that.

    I believe the entire body of believers is called to ministry, which is exercising our talents (spiritual gifts) for the edification of all. In history, it just so occurred that literacy was very rare and so those who could read and write were greatly revered, sought out, and highly compensated. Evidently, some took advantage of their knowledge and skills and, instead of being truly great by using their talents to serve others, they used it to gain worldly wealth at the expense of the poor and ignorant; and vain power over the masses. I could imagine some sort of scribal guild coming together to conspire to implement their system...the rise of the clergy...the protocols of the elder clerics....Whatever went down, back in those dark days of illiteracy, we know that we now live in the "information age" and the goal is universal literacy...so, I guess it's time for computer programmers to rise...keep your eyes on them...they may be moving for power (I'm probably way late)...

    *Was that a bit of a tangent...sorry...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  13. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    No real man would ever be interested in such a position as Head Cleaner-Upper.
     
  14. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    We call the person who cleans my church a Sexton, and yes it is a man.
     
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  15. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    I doubt a real man though.
     
  16. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Staff Member Supporter Staff on LOA

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    If you go into ministry, thinking that you won't be the head cleaner-upper... and doing a lot of cooking... and doing all the administrative grunt work... you have a pretty unrealistic picture of how ministry functions in the real world.

    Most churches are small, single-staff places. If the person in leadership isn't prepared to do everything that needs doing, from getting up an hour earlier in winter to turn the heaters on while it's still dark (so it'll be sort of warm-ish by the time the parishioners arrive), to cleaning the human excrement and discarded needles off the front step before anyone else arrives, then they're in the wrong job.

    This cartoon was shared with me soon before it was ordained, and let me tell you, it's pretty accurate (if glossing over the gritty reality a bit):

    ordination.gif
     
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  17. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    "Human excrement and discarded needles?" Where are you ministering? My church is in the suburbs - with no such problems.
     
  18. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Staff Member Supporter Staff on LOA

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    I have little of that where I am now, but I used to work in the heart of Melbourne's CBD. And we had all of that and more.
     
  19. Jonathan Mathews

    Jonathan Mathews Active Member

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    When a women tries to correct my interpretation of God's Word, she is never right. I've never had a women be able to correct my understanding of God or his Word because I receive my revelation of God's Word straight from God himself. My sin would be to submit to them and give in like Adam did to Eve who was doing the will of Satan after her interpretation of God's Word was twisted by the deceit of Satan. A women who is trying to exercise her spiritual authority over a man of God is not acting in the Spirit of God. That is why her "correction" is always incorrect. And it shows by what she is saying in those moments.
     
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  20. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Perhaps you shouldn’t judge since you have never met him. He’s in his 70’s, former Marine.
     
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