Women in leadership - advice please!

AnnaDeborah

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I quoted the pdf for you below.
Thank you. I found it very interesting - I shared the author's confusion over the bit about 'eve was deceived', so it was very helpful (no idea why it wouldn't download, but probably due to my temperamental internet connection!)

To me, it seems like he is stating (prophesying) what is going to happen to them as a consequence of their sin, because sin perverts the natural and intended order of things
That makes sense - it would also link in to the increased pain in childbirth.

An increase seems to suggest that there were already childbearing pains that were intensified rather than non-existent, so would pains that possibly already existed in Eden be a curse or did they have some beneficial purpose?
I read a really interesting book by a Christian on pain a few years ago (Pain: The Gift That Nobody Wants). The author pointed out that a certain amount of pain is beneficial - e.g. if we step on something sharp, pain tells us so that we do not continue walking and damage our feet. He points out that those who are unable to feel pain suffer severe injuries and usually a shortened life span since their lack of pain sensors mean they do not seek medical help when needed.

He argues that the reason pain is now seen as automatically 'bad' is that in a fallen world, it is out of control and often signifies something really bad. If the fall had not happened, a woman would have experienced mild labour pains which would have signified 'I need to stop what I'm doing and concentrate on giving birth' and would have been associated with joy over the arrival of the baby. But now the pain is agonising and there is also the fear of something going wrong.

So it's not that women are being punished with labour pains, but that the fall has damaged our perfect bodies so that the pain is now excessive and also linked with fear.
 
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Dave-W

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Yes. She is a great household manager and business woman, but no reference to spiritual leadership there that I can see.
To the ancient Jewish mindset, there was no division between "business" and "spiritual" leadership. That is why women like Deborah could lead and judge the Nation.
 
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timewerx

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To the ancient Jewish mindset, there was no division between "business" and "spiritual" leadership. That is why women like Deborah could lead and judge the Nation.

Interesting cultural perspective, thanks!

Is why I think the Proverbs 31 woman have all the qualities of a great leader. If one can make a great household, make a thriving business honestly without cheating anyone, they can make a nation great too!

It would take spiritual wisdom to make a business successful while keeping honest, giving fair wages (so your workers also prosper and live in abundance), and without taking advantage of anyone.
 
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Dave-W

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Is why I think the Proverbs 31 woman have all the qualities of a great leader. If one can make a great household, make a thriving business honestly without cheating anyone, they can make a nation great too!
That reflects our Lord's words:

Luke 16:10
“He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.​
 
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Dave-W

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There are two books that were years ahead in answering the questions about a woman's role in the church. K.E. Hagin - The Woman Question (I saw a free pdf of this book from google) and T.L. Osborn - If I were a Woman.
Osborne was an old-line classical Pentecostal. And women were frequently at the helm of Pentecostal groups. (like Amy Semple McPherson or Kathryn Kuhlman) His might be a good look at a historical perspective (1950s?) on the issue.

I am not sure I would believe either of the Hagins if they told me the sky was blue.
 
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JackRT

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The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would want to think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. We can see the truth of that every day in the news reports. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person. In addition two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul.
 
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Richard T

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Osborne was an old-line classical Pentecostal. And women were frequently at the helm of Pentecostal groups. (like Amy Semple McPherson or Kathryn Kuhlman) His might be a good look at a historical perspective (1950s?) on the issue.

I am not sure I would believe either of the Hagins if they told me the sky was blue.

It is fair enough that you do not prefer some of the doctrine of Hagin, but they at least do offer books that address the questions of women in leadership. Are there any books you can recommend from your doctrinal position?
 
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Dave-W

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Are there any books you can recommend from your doctrinal position?
Not really. I just left (almost 4 years ago) a group of congregations that seemed to give lip service to women in leadership, but it never happened. Indeed, the congregation I was in had a senior pastor who was very harsh on women period. He even gave a lot of tsuris to the Sisterhood group. I believe that attitude is rather widespread.

So while in conversations many say they are in favor of women leaders, no one will go on record and write it down.
 
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Paidiske

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To be honest, what I found most helpful was not reading unpacking of doctrine, but reading of the real lived experiences of other women; their sense of vocation, their journey with the church, God at work in and through their ministries.
 
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AnnaDeborah

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To be honest, what I found most helpful was not reading unpacking of doctrine, but reading of the real lived experiences of other women; their sense of vocation, their journey with the church, God at work in and through their ministries.
That is what has started me on this whole journey of exploration - because my own understanding of what the Bible said about leadership (it's not for women) did not align with the lives and examples of many Godly women I know who ARE in leadership, which caused me to question whether it was my understanding that was at fault.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed so helpfully. I especially appreciate the gracious responses of those women who are in positions of leadership. One of the things that has put me off exploring more widely in the past (this is something I have been thinking about for years) is that when I first asked these questions of a couple of female vicars, I received a torrent of abuse for 'betraying womanhood' - which made me scared to ask any other women in leadership roles for their thoughts. And even though I've since met many women who I am sure would respond more graciously, it's always difficult to raise the topic with them, because I would worry that questioning something so personal to them would harm our friendship. So I'm really grateful for this forum!
 
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Paidiske

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I'm sorry those women didn't respond well.

I'd be lying if I said I don't take the topic personally. But I can't speak for anyone else; I don't find this kind of conversation at all a problem. I know that too many of us start from a default where women are silenced and excluded, and that coming to a different position takes time and the opportunity to explore different ideas and experiences.

Sincere questioning is very different from being a living obstacle.
 
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AnnaDeborah

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My view as a younger woman was that if you believed what you were doing was right, you shouldn't have any trouble in answering questions about it, and if you didn't, you shouldn't be doing it! I was too young to make allowances for how raw someone feels when they are repeatedly attacked and questioned for something they feel so strongly about. Those female vicars were some of the first in the UK - looking back, I can understand how hard they fought for their position and how difficult they must have found it to have female leadership questioned by another woman!
 
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Paidiske

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Earlier I mentioned how valuable reading about other people's experiences was for me. One of the things I read was an English book called "Jobs for the Boys?: Women Who Became Priests," which told the story of 12 very different women who had become priests in the C of E. (And I mean different! Everything from someone running a retreat house at Lindisfarne to a young Rev'd. Squadron Leader, chaplain in the RAF!)

Some of those women did reflect on how difficult the emotions are of having had to fight for their vocation to be recognised, or of the constant challenges they received in their work (as women). I think that was helpful for me because it put my emotions about it all in a bigger context; I wasn't alone in it, but was part of a story and a struggle which had begun before I was born and wouldn't be finished before I died; and I had people ahead of me and alongside me and behind me on the way all working towards a better, stronger, healthier church.

I think one of the most destructive things is when we feel like we're alone in dealing with all of this.

As a sort of postscript to that, years and years after I first read that book, I unexpectedly saw one of the women featured in it, as the queen's chaplain offering intercessions at the most recent royal wedding. Having read her story, knowing how she came from hardship in Jamaica, was discouraged from ordination when she had young children, and had come through to be able to exercise ministry even in that incredibly privileged context... I'm not ashamed to tell you I cried. Never mind the bride, I cried at the person offering prayers!
 
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Hazelelponi

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Thank you for your response, but I'm really looking for responses from those who do believe women should lead. I can quote pages of arguments from those who believe they shouldn't, since it is how I was raised.


Yes. She is a great household manager and business woman, but no reference to spiritual leadership there that I can see.

Thank you so much. I'll have a read.

Out of interest, are there any women on CF who used to think that leadership was only for men, but who have now changed their minds? And if so, what scriptures led you to change?

A couple of things.

Even of you don't believe a woman can Pastor over the entire congregation, there are plenty of leadership roles women can be in, very very very few believe all a woman should do is go to church on Sunday, keep her mouth shut then go home..

So, depending on the position there shouldn't be any difficulty doing it from a biblical standpoint. Deborah was a judge..

It might be you are feeling pushed into a position that you don't feel called to be in, and that would be a different issue altogether..
 
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AnnaDeborah

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It might be you are feeling pushed into a position that you don't feel called to be in, and that would be a different issue altogether..
That is what I am trying to work out - am I reluctant to do some things because they are wrong for a woman to do, just wrong for me to do, or right for me to do but outside my comfort zone so feel scary!
 
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Hazelelponi

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That is what I am trying to work out - am I reluctant to do some things because they are wrong for a woman to do, just wrong for me to do, or right for me to do but outside my comfort zone so feel scary

If it's any consolation I understand..

But honestly, there is only a couple positions that the majority of churches rule out for women.. So for most stuff your pretty safe...

I would suggest some serious prayer or prayer and fasting...get with God about it, and take your time. Make certain of the answer before you jump into anything...
 
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AnnaDeborah

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Thank you. I will. It has been really helpful to read what others have to say though. I'm realising that some of the things I was raised to think of as 'wrong' for a woman to do are actually not, according to the Bible. As you say, lots of time with God and He will make it clear.
 
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Thank you. I will. It has been really helpful to read what others have to say though. I'm realising that some of the things I was raised to think of as 'wrong' for a woman to do are actually not, according to the Bible. As you say, lots of time with God and He will make it clear.

l'll put you on my prayer list as well. .
 
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