Women in leadership - advice please!

AnnaDeborah

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I hope this is the right place to post this. My church background is that men & women are equal but have different God-given roles (so only men can preach & lead). I've heard many people argue that it is ok for women to lead, but have not found their arguments convincing. They are usually based on 'women in leadership would have been shocking at that time' (which I find unconvincing because Jesus didn't exactly go out of his way not to shock!) or 'Paul had a problem with women' (which is no doubt why he referred to them as his 'beloved fellow workers'? And if Paul was wrong, that gives us the problem of the Bible not being inspired!)

It's got even more awkward recently, in that I am involved in church ministry quite a lot myself and coming under increasing pressure/encouragement to take a leadership role, but based on my current understanding of the Bible, I can't feel that it is right for me to do so. At the same time, I know many women in leadership roles for whom I have great respect and who show clear evidence of living a Godly life. Which makes it kind of awkward when they ask why I won't lead...! Because I don't want it to sound like I'm judging them for their choice (especially when God is so clearly using them in their ministry), but at the same time, I go back to the Bible and can't read 'those verses' any other way except that I would be wrong to lead...

So - women who are in some kind of leadership role - how do you deal with the verses about men only being in leadership?
 

Dansiph

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Hi, I've been a Christian since July. I'm from the UK also and looking to join a church with a male leadership (probably Baptist)...

I'd say to my knowledge men should be in the leadership roles, not women. I also think God's intelligence and wisdom is incomprehensibly greater than ours.

I have a twin sister if that matters so I am probably closer to her than anyone else even though I am a man. This is my "defence" if anyone accuses me of being unfair to women lol

Sorry if you did not want my response I didn't fully understand your last sentence but decided to reply anyway.

To conclude I get the feeling sometimes that people nowadays think of the people of the past as idiots. However, these people built great buildings and did many incredible things. There's also a view that women must have been bullied by men in some way. Just because women were treated badly in one period doesn't mean they were during another, whenever it was.
 
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timewerx

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Have you read the Proverbs 31 wife?

It shows a woman with all the qualities of a great leader as well as taking roles of aurthority and leadership. :)

Apostle Paul's instructions for women is most probably for that time and culture only.

In fact, Apostle Paul, explained himself very clearly on matters of cultural adaptations of his teachings and therefore, many of his teachings is not applicable to our time and culture because otherwise, contradictory teachings will arise.
 
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AnnaDeborah

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I'd say to my knowledge men should be in the leadership roles, not women.
Thank you for your response, but I'm really looking for responses from those who do believe women should lead. I can quote pages of arguments from those who believe they shouldn't, since it is how I was raised.

Have you read the Proverbs 31 wife?
Yes. She is a great household manager and business woman, but no reference to spiritual leadership there that I can see.
Here is a link to a bunch of articles on a blog (that specializes in the topic) that I follow that may be helpful.
Thank you so much. I'll have a read.

Out of interest, are there any women on CF who used to think that leadership was only for men, but who have now changed their minds? And if so, what scriptures led you to change?
 
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bekkilyn

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Out of interest, are there any women on CF who used to think that leadership was only for men, but who have now changed their minds? And if so, what scriptures led you to change?

Well I grew up Southern Baptist and the only woman leader was the youth director, so I had no idea at the time that it was even possible for women to have any non-children related leadership roles in a church. I thought only non-Christian religions had that. Plus, all the interpretations of Paul's epistles that I knew about where heavily misogynistic because I didn't understand anything any differently. I found myself to be upset about all of it because God was supposed to love everyone, but seemed to really hate women, especially through Paul.

After college, I actually left the church altogether for a while, and even though I believed in Jesus, I don't know that I would have gone back to church or even to Christianity if over time, I hadn't come to see things differently. I still liked studying the bible and enjoy learning about religions in general, so I can't think of any particular verses that really stand out for that time, but over time as I began to better understand Paul's messages as a *whole* rather than just verses cherry-picked out by various people to "prove" to me that women are inferior, I realized that I had seriously misunderstood Paul and that he had actually been *advocating* for women all along. It was a complete paradigm shift in my way of thinking, even if it didn't all happen right away.

When I found out about how the early church was VERY influenced by pagan Greco-Roman philosophers (who were extremely misogynistic) and places where translators would translate a word for a male as "minister" but translate the exact same word for a woman as something else, I realized that many of my assumptions may have been very wrong. I'm still learning things, but have grown convinced that Paul was very supportive of both women and men in ministry leadership or too many things in his letters would be contradictory. He wouldn't be walking the talk, or talking the walk, or something like that!

Now I am very UN-APOLOGETICALLY egalitarian. :)
 
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Uber Genius

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bekkilyn

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This does make a lot of sense. The Temple of Artemis (Diana) was located in the city of Ephesus and it was considered to be one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. (I saw a graphic where it compared it to the size of an American football field.) Much of the city's economy was based around this temple, and pagan temples also often served as banks.

The Ephesus riot in the book of Acts, chapter 19 centers around the silversmiths who made silver figurines to sell in this temple, and so when Paul and his bunch came in and started making converts to "the Way" (Christianity), it was taking business away from the temple, and so Paul was basically crashing their economy in the city!

Paul spends a lot of time in the book of Ephesians attempting to turn Christians away from their former lives of sexual immorality, drunkenness, lying, debauchery, etc. to a new way of transformed living in Christ, and so Paul would most certainly be opposed to the worship of Artemis and anything related to it.
 
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AnnaDeborah

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bekkilyn

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Thank you. I can't access the pdf as it won't download, but I found the other article very interesting

I quoted the pdf for you below.

I Suffer Not a Woman Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11-15 in Light of Ancient Evidence | By Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger | Reviewed by W. Harold Fuller

Until now, this reviewer had to acknowledge he simply did not understand Paul's statement: "I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man" (1Tim 2:12). No explanation rang scripturally true: e.g. "rabbinical male bias" or "a local cultural problem." Exceptions for women teaching or preaching ("only occasionally" or "under male authority" or "if there aren't male missionaries") sounded like semantics. Now Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger have opened a window of understanding. Their thesis posits that Paul's injunction in our versions is a mistranslation of an obscure verb, used only in this one scripture. The authors carefully document that the original Greek, authentein, had several uses: "to have authority" was one; another was "to originate" (p. 101).

Building on ancient evidence, the Kroegers establish that Ephesus (Timothy's parish) was the seat of a grossly immoral Earth Mother religion which influenced Christo-pagan heresies. The cult taught that a goddess was the initiator not only of mankind, but of the Creator God himself (120). Men could receive mystic knowledge only through the goddess, consummated through sexual intercourse with the temple priestesses (97). If authentein is translated as "originator," the passage could read: "I do not permit woman to teach nor to represent herself as originator of man." ["Teach nor represent" both referring grammatically to the heresy; 103.]

Paul, then, was not addressing culture, but dangerous theological error. It did not have to do with women teaching men, but with a pagan religion perverting the Church at Ephesus (57). He was appealing to women to learn the truth and refrain from teaching error (181). This makes sense out of Paul's further statements about Adam's being created first and not being deceived (1 Tim 2:13,14). As one who defends the inerrancy of Scripture, I nevertheless always wondered why Paul, writer of the powerful apologetics of Romans, here seemed to resort to pettiness. The Kroegers show that Paul was not being petty but was attacking this major heresy head on (124).

The cult not only taught that Eve existed first (as the Earth Mother goddess) but also that she deceived Adam into thinking she had been taken from his side (122). Deception was a major tenet of the cult. The book throws light on other controversial phrases such as "learn in silence,"(76); "saved by childbearing," (26), but review space here permits considering only the core thesis. If the Kroegers are right, why have Bible scholars not presented this alternative rendering long before now? Is it possible we have felt comfortable with a rendering which fit our world view, even if it seemed incongruous with biblical examples of women in teaching and leadership roles? What do other evangelical reviews say about the book?

Those I have read so far do not deny that authentein can also mean "to originate." Several of them, however, tend to "skirt around” the central issue of the Kroegers' thesis, finding fault with methodology and concentrating on other arguments about women's role. Obviously, this healthy debate will continue. The Kroegers do not try to solve the sensitive question of women preachers, but they do argue for the scriptural use of spiritual gifts regardless of gender (14). And of course there are scriptures that describe the relationship of men and women in the family and in the church.

What does I Suffer Not a Woman imply to us? As a minimum, it means we can no longer honestly use 1Tim 2:12 to prohibit spiritual women teaching and leading men (117). Even those who reject the Kroegers' thesis must admit that the alternative renderings of authentein make this particular "proof text" too uncertain for establishing a dogma. However, the book left me with a disturbing question: Have we evangelicals, who rightly oppose contextualization that distorts scripture, innocently perpetuated a gross contextualization of this passage? That is, have we unquestioningly accepted a traditionally masculine hermeneutic, instead of researching the real meaning of authentein as used in 1Tim 2:12? If so, as the Kroegers point out (11), we have denied ourselves the benefit of some valuable spiritual gifts in the Body of Christ. And in the process, many gifted women, while wanting to obey what seemed a scriptural prohibition, have been deeply hurt (25).

One more relevant question: Does the Kroegers' alternative reading mean that Paul was addressing only a transitory problem? Not at all. For centuries missionaries in many cultures have had to face "Earth Mother" religions (e.g. Pachamama in South America). Now as the New Age Movement and radical feminism combine to promote an Earth Mother concept in our own society, the real import of 1Tim 2:11-15 will become even more relevant. The principles of God's Word are timeless and universally applicable! W. HAROLD FULLER is a missiologist and author based in Toronto, Canada, and chairman of the Board of Deacons of a Baptist church. Originally published in Priscilla Papers, Volume 7, Number 3 Summer 1993, p. 14. Purchase your copy today!
 
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Uber Genius

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Thank you. I can't access the pdf as it won't download, but I found the other article very interesting
I went out and checked, it has no special access or permissions. Here it is.

Opps didn't see someone had posted it already. I just deleted it so it doesn't appear twice.
 
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PloverWing

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Out of interest, are there any women on CF who used to think that leadership was only for men, but who have now changed their minds? And if so, what scriptures led you to change?

I'm one. I used to believe that only men should be pastors; I now emphatically support women in ordained ministry.

Two ways in which Scripture was relevant to my journey are:

1) Galatians 3:28: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

2) In studying the Scriptures more broadly, I see that there are many places throughout Scripture -- the epistles, the prophets, the gospels -- where the Bible writers make the point that God sees those who are out of power, for whatever reason (poverty, ethnicity, etc), sees their hardships, and loves them. Loves them, and chastises the powerful people who oppress them. Including women as full members of the body of Christ is similar to including the poor, including Gentiles, including slaves, including children, and so on. Once I started seeing this theme, I see it everywhere in the Bible.
 
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bekkilyn

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PloverWing just reminded me of something else that influenced me, though it isn't woman-specific...that God has a pattern throughout scripture of calling the lesser and least to do his work. The story of Samuel anointing a son of Jesse to be the next king and it turns out to be the youngest of the sons, who apparently wasn't even considered important enough to be invited, and who was out tending the sheep, which was one of the lowliest positions in that society. God isn't bound by who we humans deem to be chosen or qualified or important, because unlike us, he sees the heart and he qualifies the unqualified.
 
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Paidiske

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I think for me, recognising that the conservative reading of Paul didn't match his recorded actions was a big thing. On the one hand, he says women must be silent etc, but then he commends Phoebe the deacon, Junia the apostle, various other women who taught and hosted (and therefore almost certainly presided over) worship in their homes, and so on.

The picture doesn't fit the words. If Paul never allowed a woman to lead, he'd have been condemning these women, not lauding them.
 
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timewerx

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I think for me, recognising that the conservative reading of Paul didn't match his recorded actions was a big thing. On the one hand, he says women must be silent etc, but then he commends Phoebe the deacon, Junia the apostle, various other women who taught and hosted (and therefore almost certainly presided over) worship in their homes, and so on.

The picture doesn't fit the words. If Paul never allowed a woman to lead, he'd have been condemning these women, not lauding them.

Very good example! One must understand the cultural context of the teachings of Paul, or else contradictions will arise.

Not all the teachings of Paul applies to us and we must remember that during those times, women were treated less than human beings. They have to be bit more careful of teaching about gender equality at the risk of getting banned or eradicated by the Jewish or Roman authorities:

1 Corinthians 19:20-23
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

One could certainly assume, since they lived in a heavily Patriarchal Society, Paul became like a "Patriarch" to try to win those under that oppressive culture.;)

Because Jesus observed gender equality. He did and tolerated things considered taboo between men and women in those times. One has to read the Bible very carefully to take notice!
 
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timewerx

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The Ephesus riot in the book of Acts, chapter 19 centers around the silversmiths who made silver figurines to sell in this temple, and so when Paul and his bunch came in and started making converts to "the Way" (Christianity), it was taking business away from the temple, and so Paul was basically crashing their economy in the city!

Curious thing!

There's one or two more events like this, whenever Christ's disciples came, the local economy went down, lol! Or affected someone's business badly.

But our modern times, seem opposite. Presence of Christians seem to improve economy! Something wrong we do this time, perhaps, being much more friendly and tolerant of worldly / heathen activities as opposed to the disciples of Christ.
 
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timewerx

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Another things many Christians might reference to promote their views of a submissive wife or woman in church is in the Book of Genesis - the curse of Adam and Eve for eating from the Tree of Knowledge. One of the curses / punishment is the husband ruling over the wife.

But note, Jesus came to take away this curse! No longer is man has to carry such heavy burden, nor for a woman to have a man rule over her.

It also tends to be a huge problem for quite many Christians to once have a belief (or false belief) set in, they can't get rid of it or change their view despite compelling references in the Bible. I used to believe that a wife should submit to a husband for. I believed it for many years as a Christian. But when I did careful study of the Bible for a couple years, I saw it wasn't the case.

I think Christians should take it seriously to devote their free time to studying the words of Christ in the Bible, instead of wasting time in less useful hobbies like facebook, golf, etc. It might be too late when you decide to change. There's not enough time to know the important words of Christ on the deathbed, most importantly, teachings that will save you..... You could not believe Christ enough unless you know enough of His teachings to really know who He is. Not enough to know just His name and believe he exists for Christ is the Word. The Word is the essence of Christ and belief.
 
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bekkilyn

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I'm unconvinced that the part of Genesis where God says "the husband will rule over you" was actually a curse. To me, it seems like he is stating (prophesying) what is going to happen to them as a consequence of their sin, because sin perverts the natural and intended order of things, and thus humans will be selfish and turn God's egalitarian plan where both Adam and Eve would share the stewardship of the garden equally, into one dominating over the other in a sin-saturated world and social structure.

I see that humans are really at fault for the harmful patriarchal social structures, and not God, and that's another reasons why I don't believe Christians should support any form of patriarchy or anything that suggests that we should be living into any consequences of sin rather than transformed lives in Christ.

Either way though, it's all gone in Christ.

It states that God cursed the ground and the serpent, but there is never an actual statement that he cursed the man or woman. He increased her childbearing pains, but there is nothing that signifies whether it was just Eve's that were increased or all childbearing women for all time. People assume it was for all women, but it didn't say anything concerning all her generations. An increase seems to suggest that there were already childbearing pains that were intensified rather than non-existent, so would pains that possibly already existed in Eden be a curse or did they have some beneficial purpose?

Just things I tend to ponder when I should be sleeping. :)
 
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timewerx

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To me, it seems like he is stating (prophesying) what is going to happen to them as a consequence of their sin, because sin perverts the natural and intended order of things, and thus humans will be selfish and turn God's egalitarian plan where both Adam and Eve would share the stewardship of the garden equally, into one dominating over the other in a sin-saturated world and social structure.........Either way though, it's all gone in Christ.

Quoted for truth!
 
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timewerx

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Yes. She is a great household manager and business woman, but no reference to spiritual leadership there that I can see.

The Proverbs 31 wife runs pretty much everything in the family, even providing the main source of income.

For thousands of years, the whole world and even Christians did the opposite, reducing women or wives to lesser roles with men running the economy and consolidating wealth and power. It didn't have positive outcome to everyone and almost ruined our planet until women started becoming bold and claiming their rightful place in society.

Spiritual leadership of men is overrated / abused by religions. In the words of Christ and taking the right context of Paul's teachings, both gender is equal in this regards.

Spiritual leadership is only granted to very few people (only FEW are chosen). Religions abused this system on their own accord. Copying the same system of this corrupted world to attain leadership - hard work, dedication, discipline, education, and having connections. So we ended up having so many leaders that are not really called by God and committing horrific mistakes while in authority.
 
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