Women Deacons

[AvilaSurfer]

Fortunately the Vatican is not swayed by the sheer volume of saying something over and over and over again, no matter how wrong it is.

 

[steve_bakr]

Fortunately the Vatican is not swayed by the sheer volume of saying something over and over and over again, no matter how wrong it is.

Yes, but the Vatican needs also to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Vatican is not necessarily synonymous with the entire Church. The Church consists in all the faithful. There are a lot of politics and careerism in the Vatican which need to be reformed. It's an intrinsic problem: how can the Vatican reform itself? By sending the matter through the usual channels?

 

[Struggling Sinner]

Fortunately the Vatican is not swayed by the sheer volume of saying something over and over and over again, no matter how wrong it is.

It reminds me of how my kids keep asking me the same question over and over again hoping that I will just give in to the sheer annoyance. The Church doesn't work that way. If it did it wouldn't have lasted more than maybe two or three hundred years.

 

[steve_bakr]

It reminds me of how my kids keep asking me the same question over and over again hoping that I will just give in to the sheer annoyance. The Church doesn't work that way. If it did it wouldn't have lasted more than maybe two or three hundred years.

When you say "the Church," who exactly are you referring to?

 

[Rhamiel]

When you say "the Church," who exactly are you referring to?

the Church is the Magisterium and the clergy and the lay faithful

well the Magisterium is made up by the clergy, but not all in the clergy can be counted as the Magisterium

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Yes, but the Vatican needs also to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Vatican is not necessarily synonymous with the entire Church. The Church consists in all the faithful. There are a lot of politics and careerism in the Vatican which need to be reformed. It's an intrinsic problem: how can the Vatican reform itself? By sending the matter through the usual channels?

The Holy Spirit will not lead the Vatican to change dogma. He led them to the dogma in the first place.

 

[steve_bakr]

The Holy Spirit will not lead the Vatican to change dogma. He led them to the dogma in the first place.

There again you refer to the Vatican as if it is the Church.

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, but the Vatican needs also to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Vatican is not necessarily synonymous with the entire Church. The Church consists in all the faithful. There are a lot of politics and careerism in the Vatican which need to be reformed. It's an intrinsic problem: how can the Vatican reform itself? By sending the matter through the usual channels?

yes it consists of the faithful

if people are rebelling agianst the teachings of the Church
they are not very faithful

 

[Rhamiel]

There again you refer to the Vatican as if it is the Church.

The Pope and the Bishops together form the Magistarium, the teaching instriment of the Church
the faithful listen to the Magistarium
if they do not listen, well then they are not faithful

 

[steve_bakr]

The Pope and the Bishops together form the Magistarium, the teaching instriment of the Church
the faithful listen to the Magistarium
if they do not listen, well then they are not faithful

Who is not listening? Actually, the Blessed John Henry Newman, in his article called "On Consulting the Faithful in Matters of Doctrine," pointed out a time when the Church hierarchy nearly drifted into Arianism but it was the faithful who stood firm. As he said, sometimes the faithful can correct the hierarchy. I am just saying this for a more proportionate view of ecclesiology.

We Catholics need to be careful of Churcholatry just as Protestants need to avoid Bibliolatry. As Catholic theologian Karl Rahner pointed out in "Foundations of Christian Faith," the core truth of Christianity is not the Church. The core truth of Christianity is the Word made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth, whose humanity revealed the nature of God to man.

 

[Davidnic]

The Church is all the faithful. And the Holy Spirit guides us all. But there are special Charisms of leadership given to some.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church and that is not vested in the laity.

The Holy Spirit will not lead the Magisterium to change things like the matter of Sacraments. There are dogmatic things from Scripture and Tradition that it is impossible to change. To represent inline with ancient source...of course. We do that. But not change.

When people refer to the Church it is all the faithful, but it is also..when referring to Dogma and Teaching referring to the Magisterium, that has the authority to teach and authorize to others (theologians and such) to teach.

The faithful are not without a part in all this, it is cooperative in enacting things. And essential to the practical success of living out Dogma.

 

[steve_bakr]

The Church is all the faithful. And the Holy Spirit guides us all. But there are special Charisms of leadership given to some.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church and that is not vested in the laity.

The Holy Spirit will not lead the Magisterium to change things like the matter of Sacraments. There are dogmatic things from Scripture and Tradition that it is impossible to change. To represent inline with ancient source...of course. We do that. But not change.

When people refer to the Church it is all the faithful, but it is also..when referring to Dogma and Teaching referring to the Magisterium, that has the authority to teach and authorize to others (theologians and such) to teach.

The faithful are not without a part in all this, it is cooperative in enacting things. And essential to the practical success of living out Dogma.

Agreed. Some Church dogma seemed to be discerned over time, such as the Sacrament of Confirmation and the infallibility of the Pope when speaking from the Chair of Peter.

 

[Davidnic]

And those things we not added, just confirmed. Some of our brothers and sisters in other Christian congregations would have a different opinion.

I think there is a fracture in the laity over issues that are not theology (politics in particular) that hurts overall unity of a large segment of the faithful. It is sad. But that is a different topic.

 

[KatherineS]

The Church is all the faithful. And the Holy Spirit guides us all. But there are special Charisms of leadership given to some.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church and that is not vested in the laity.

The Holy Spirit will not lead the Magisterium to change things like the matter of Sacraments. There are dogmatic things from Scripture and Tradition that it is impossible to change. To represent inline with ancient source...of course. We do that. But not change.

When people refer to the Church it is all the faithful, but it is also..when referring to Dogma and Teaching referring to the Magisterium, that has the authority to teach and authorize to others (theologians and such) to teach.

The faithful are not without a part in all this, it is cooperative in enacting things. And essential to the practical success of living out Dogma.

Every word of the above that David wrote is true.



O God the Holy and Almighty, who sanctified women through the birth in the flesh of Your only-begottrn Son and our God from the Virgin; and bestowed the grace and advent of Your Holy Spirit not to men alone, but also to women, look now, Lord, upon this Your servant and call her to the work of Your diaconate. Send down upon her the abudent gifts of Your Holy Spirit. Preserve her in your orthodox faith, in blameless conduct, always fullfilling her ministry according to Your pleasure; because to You is due all honor, glory and worship, to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[Dylan Michael]

Every word of the above that David wrote is true.



O God the Holy and Almighty, who sanctified women through the birth in the flesh of Your only-begottrn Son and our God from the Virgin; and bestowed the grace and advent of Your Holy Spirit not to men alone, but also to women, look now, Lord, upon this Your servant and call her to the work of Your diaconate. Send down upon her the abudent gifts of Your Holy Spirit. Preserve her in your orthodox faith, in blameless conduct, always fullfilling her ministry according to Your pleasure; because to You is due all honor, glory and worship, to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. Amen.

And where is that prayer from?
It doesn't seem very ancient to me.

 

[revanneosl]

It's from the Byzantine Rite, so it all depends on whether the 4th century is ancient enough for you.

 

[Dylan Michael]

It's from the Byzantine Rite, so it all depends on whether the 4th century is ancient enough for you.

Really? Because I've researched it and I've never seen a credible source to back that up.

 

[revanneosl]

I read it here. But I don't know of an online source.

 

[KatherineS]

It's from the Byzantine Rite, so it all depends on whether the 4th century is ancient enough for you.

The 4th century. How time flys, it seems just like yesterday!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yes, but the Vatican needs also to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Vatican is not necessarily synonymous with the entire Church. The Church consists in all the faithful. There are a lot of politics and careerism in the Vatican which need to be reformed. It's an intrinsic problem: how can the Vatican reform itself? By sending the matter through the usual channels?

No - it is the Pope who is led specifically by the Holy Spirit who is there to teach the flock what the Holy Spirit desires - not the other way around.

IF the Vatican needs reformed the Pope is led to such a thing...

This is how apostates pop up. Lacking trust that in how the Church moves. God doesnt work fast - He has seconds to change things - being outside of time - it means years within the Church.