Women Deacons

[KatherineS]

In addition to the statement by the head of the German bishops conference favorable to the ordination of women as deacons, I also note the following commentary by a bishop:

Why Not Women? | America Magazine

 

[Andres88]

Unfortunately I think that allowing that will bring even more problems. As people say: "Sometimes you give a person your hand, and he grabs your whole arm and throw you to the floor." Little concessions such as this one will probably be seen as a "conquest" by feminist groups, who will still not be pleased, and rather, will get even more fierce in attempting to make the Church allow the ordination of women to the priesthood. Personal opinion, though.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Women deaconesses in the early Church were the wives of deacons. They did not receive Holy Orders as their husbands did.

Their role was primarily preparing females bodies for burial and other issues related to females.

This was according to the history class I took when going through discernment for the diaconate.

Also, because Deacon's receive Holy Orders, should they become widowed, they can become priest as many have. Women can not be ordained an so can not receive Holy Orders.

Jim

 

[Rhamiel]

Women deaconesses in the early Church were the wives of deacons. They did not receive Holy Orders as their husbands did.

Their role was primarily preparing females bodies for burial and other issues related to females.

This was according to the history class I took when going through discernment for the diaconate.

Also, because Deacon's receive Holy Orders, should they become widowed, they can become priest as many have. Women can not be ordained an so can not receive Holy Orders.

Jim

also, we have religious orders now that can help minister to women
so the role of the deaconess in the early Church has been replaced by the role of the Religious Sister and the Nun

 

[Fantine]

Change comes slowly, Katherine, but even baby steps that are headed in the right direction will eventually bring the Church to a destination it needs to travel to.

I can understand, in an abstract, theoretical, and detached way, why Rhamiel and Jim believe that women should not be ordained deacons.

What I can't understand is the whole pugilistic aggressive attitude towards it.

If I think something is inequitable but regrettable, my attitude is sort of like, "Well, that bleeps, but sometimes life is that way. I am going to focus my efforts on other equality measures for women and save that battle for my granddaughters."

What I can't figure out at all is the attitude of "Pow. Bam. Bop. No. Never. Stop! Don't even think about it! It is written in the same stone as the ten commandments, all the way from Mt. Sinai. Report for deprogramming immediately...."

I'm like "??" Life is unfair--but why are you a cheerleader for unfairness?

 

[Rhamiel]

what unfairness?
in the early Church they were called "deaconesses"
now they are called "nuns" and "religious sisters"

it is just a change in name
the same job
serving Christ by ministering to others, often with a focus on helping other women
same thing
what "unfairness" are you talking about?
the only thing that changed is the name

also, to change the name back to "deaconess" now would do nothing but confuse the laity
some of the faithful might even fall into heresy and believe in such things as the possibility of a woman being ordained a priest

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Change comes slowly, Katherine, but even baby steps that are headed in the right direction will eventually bring the Church to a destination it needs to travel to.

That change isn't coming. Not slowly. Not at all. There is no discussion.

I'm like "??" Life is unfair--but why are you a cheerleader for unfairness?

Fairness has nothing to do with it. It's dogma.

 

[Fantine]

That change isn't coming. Not slowly. Not at all. There is no discussion.


Fairness has nothing to do with it. It's dogma.

Thanks for illustrating my point.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

If your point is that it's settled, you're welcome.

 

[mark46]

The deaconess in the Early Church also prpared women for baptism.

The issue is of course about Holy Orders.

We often speak as if the Council at Nicea or one of the other councils forbade the ordination of female deacons.

There is no question that the Tradition of the Church is that we do not ordain women deacons. It is also the Tradition of the Church that the Vatican be run by men. It is the way it has been for 2000 years.

We deal with many man-made rules in the Church. Our Tradition is full of them. This is just one of many. I think it strange to think that this issue is in any way central to the faith. This issue is a critical social issue in our times, but the reality is that we are discussing the definition of the requirements for one of the sacraments. This is hardly foundational.

Women deaconesses in the early Church were the wives of deacons. They did not receive Holy Orders as their husbands did.

Their role was primarily preparing females bodies for burial and other issues related to females.

This was according to the history class I took when going through discernment for the diaconate.

Also, because Deacon's receive Holy Orders, should they become widowed, they can become priest as many have. Women can not be ordained an so can not receive Holy Orders.

Jim

 

[Fantine]

If your point is that it's settled, you're welcome.

My point is that rejoicing in inequity, even if inequity is the status quo, diminishes the person rejoicing.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

My point is that rejoicing in inequity, even if inequity is the status quo, diminishes the person rejoicing.

Your point only holds true if there is inequity. There is none. And you don't get to decide who is diminished.

 

[Rhamiel]

My point is that rejoicing in inequity, even if inequity is the status quo, diminishes the person rejoicing.

what about my point?
that there is no inequity
the role of the deaconess has been taken up by the Nun and the Religious Sister
women who serve Jesus Christ by working in ministries that are often, though not always, focused mainly on women

and to change the name back would do more harm then good by confusing many members of the laity

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

Don't nuns and sisters take Holy Orders, so wouldn't a deconess become a nun when her husband passed away?

I honestly thought women already could be deconesses in the RCC, but ok.

 

[Fantine]

St. Jane Frances DeChantal was a widow who founded an order, the Congregation of the Visitation, in the 17th century.

You might call it "working with women." It's also being an entrepreneur and a CEO. The group now has 3000 sisters in 168 monasteries over the world.

A "little woman" in Ireland founded the Sisters of Mercy in the 19th century. The sisters built schools and hospitals, including some of the largest healthcare systems in this country.

These American pioneers--clearing the land by day, getting their degrees in summer school--built and led schools, universities, and hospitals generations before other women started seizing their 'opportunities.'

Was Mother Teresa a "woman who helped women" or one of the most charismatic businesswomen the world has ever known?

Thank goodness they didn't know "their place."

 

[AvilaSurfer]

But they did have "their place." They did not push for ordination.

And again, you've proved my point. Women can have a tremendous impact, and do a lot of good without endorsing an idea that is just not possible. Women today should follow their example.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Don't nuns and sisters take Holy Orders, so wouldn't a deconess become a nun when her husband passed away?

I honestly thought women already could be deconesses in the RCC, but ok.

1. No
2. No

 

[KatherineS]

the role of the deaconess has been taken up by the Nun and the Religious Sister
women who serve Jesus Christ by working in ministries that are often, though not always, focused mainly on women

and to change the name back would do more harm then good by confusing many members of the laity

It would be beneficial to have the proper charism for a minsitry.

Yes, religious women often do diaconal ministry. That would be a case to once again ordain them as deacons as was done in the past.

The German Archbishop, I think, has done an important step by suggesting that women should be ordained as deacons. Let the discussion continue.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The deaconess in the Early Church also prpared women for baptism.

The issue is of course about Holy Orders.

We often speak as if the Council at Nicea or one of the other councils forbade the ordination of female deacons.

There is no question that the Tradition of the Church is that we do not ordain women deacons. It is also the Tradition of the Church that the Vatican be run by men. It is the way it has been for 2000 years.

We deal with many man-made rules in the Church. Our Tradition is full of them. This is just one of many. I think it strange to think that this issue is in any way central to the faith. This issue is a critical social issue in our times, but the reality is that we are discussing the definition of the requirements for one of the sacraments. This is hardly foundational.

The tradition of only ordaining men, doesn't come from man made rules but from Jesus himself who chose only men to be his apostles, and they only chose only men to succeed for them. Either we believe they were guided by the Holy Spirit, or we don't.

Also, a priest become Christ en persona when celebrating Mass and Christ is a male. Again, this isn't a man made rule, but how Christ instituted the sacrament.

The prohibition of ordaining women is based on Tradition and Scripture.

Jim

 

[AvilaSurfer]

It would be beneficial to have the proper charism for a minsitry.

Yes, religious women often do diaconal ministry. That would be a case to once again ordain them as deacons as was done in the past.

The German Archbishop, I think, has done an important step by suggesting that women should be ordained as deacons. Let the discussion continue.

There is no discussion except on message boards.