Women Can't Preach

katautumn

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Gender is often influenced by society. In America, things like makeup, high heels, and jewelry is seen as very feminine and beautiful. In some African tribes, having many piercings and designs painted on one's skin is seen as feminine and beautiful.

That is merely external adornment, which the Bible also addresses. How we "dress up" is influenced by culture; however, gender roles are not. Those are God prescribed and life works a whole lot better when we live within those roles. We're all equal in God's sight, but we have different roles in our family, in our society, and in our church.

Take, for example, a police officer. As human beings we have the same Constitutional rights. We're equally able to be saved by God's grace. Christ's blood was shed for both of us. With that said, he plays a role in the community that I am not afforded, because I'm not in law enforcement. If I get pulled over, that police officer is in a position of authority over me. It does not mean God sees him as better than I am, it simply means he has a role that places him in a position of authority that I do not have.
 
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Dani K

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Well, that should be an admonition to all women. The Christian faith shouldn't operate on the premise of, "well, if you don't like it, then don't do it". Either the Bible sets the standard or it doesn't. There's no room for fence sitting or rewriting the Scriptures to suit an agenda.


I do not see the problem with what I said, why are there so many different denominations? If it doesn't fit to you... make another version right?

Like I said... if she doesn't like women preaching, then she shouldn't do it.
 
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katautumn

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I do not see the problem with what I said, why are there so many different denominations? If it doesn't fit to you... make another version right?

Like I said... if she doesn't like women preaching, then she shouldn't do it.

It's not that what you said is a problem, so much that it doesn't necessarily line up with the Scriptures. Sure, a person can find a denomination to suit them; however, we should attend a church that follows, and teaches, the Bible not find one that merely "tickles your ears".
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I like it:thumbsup:

If those churches that want to ordain women do so while those which feel that the historic position of the Christian church is still right choose not to do so, why should they (or their members) villify each other?

Why? It is a testimony to latter day apostasy that this question should even be asked. And consistent with this egalitarian ethos, one of such whom i was debating with a while ago referenced a "Christian" who believed that the many condemnations of fornication was only against those done as part of pagan idolatry, which specious argumentation is a favorite among prohomosexual apologists.

The answer to "why" is because truth is life, and thus the Holy Spirit's charge to Timothy, "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. " (1 Timothy 4:16)

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. " (2 Timothy 4:2)

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine...That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. " (Titus 2:4-5)

Sound Doctrine is not a dirty word, and to live by the word of God, and to rebuke, etc. based on it requires basic coherence in it on primary things, and the headship of the Father over Christ, and of Christ over the church, and of the man over the women is not a dark saying that of open to interpretation that denies it as meaning authority with a hierarchical structure, but is quite clear.

Arguments attempting to negate this such as by arguing it was simply cultural, or of the same class and basis as that which sanctioned or tolerated slavery, or that "head" simply means source, and the submission of the wife simply means mutual submission, requires such wresting or ignorance of scripture that they themselves are an argument against positional gender equality.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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It's not really my opinion. It's what is clearly written in scripture.

People try to twist the word of God to suit their personal agenda. The clue to this is that there rarely seems to be a clear and unambiguous piece of scripture to back up their belief.

The homosexual argument is another case in point where the God's word is clear and defined. God even laid waste to city to show his views...and still people try to twist the word, citing all sorts of vague references.
:)

This is true and a commonality is that in their quest to negate injunctions they do not like and find sanction for them, both egalitarians and prohomosexual apologists engage in hermeneutics which by extension can disallow the transcendence of most any moral command or discipline, and the Bible as providing a morally coherent code that one can be held to.

And which, as seen by the libertarian affirmation of basic doctrinal anarchy, can be seen as a goal.
 
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Johnnz

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But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine...That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. " (Titus 2:4-5)

Sound Doctrine is not a dirty word, and to live by the word of God, and to rebuke, etc. based on it requires basic coherence in it on primary things, and the headship of the Father over Christ, and of Christ over the church, and of the man over the women is not a dark saying that of open to interpretation that denies it as meaning authority with a hierarchical structure, but is quite clear.

Arguments attempting to negate this such as by arguing it was simply cultural, or of the same class and basis as that which sanctioned or tolerated slavery, or that "head" simply means source, and the submission of the wife simply means mutual submission, requires such wresting or ignorance of scripture that they themselves are an argument against positional gender equality.

That's a real shotgun response.

a) Titus. That was a women's role in Roman society. Paul was advocating respect for marriage within that society. It is well attested that marriage was not widely held in honour in those times. An older man would marry a much younger woman whose principal function was to produce an heir. A wife would also have household responsibilities, which in a richer family would entail oversight of servants, hospitality, tradespeople, suppliers and merchants. In such households men would have a mistress (or more) sometimes living in the same house. Slaves were the sexual property of their male owners. Undefiled marriage beds take on a new meaning against this backdrop.

We have records from NT times of the contempt of some male citizens of Christians, their love for each other, most especially that of their wives. Jesus changed family life back then. But it is a cultural mismatch to assume or overlay a modern nuclear family onto those times and the biblical texts about households.

The headship thesis does not square with Scripture. Firstly in is theologically unsound, contradicting all traditional credal statement about the Godhead as Trinity. Then, Paul does not give a hierarchy, and he is most particular in both his logic and choice of words whenever he wrote. A hierarchy would be presented as

God-Jesus-man-Woman But in 1 Cor the order is:
Christ-man-God.

That order has no implications of 'chain of command'. If it did the Paul's teaching would be incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity

Your final paragraph is a jumble of concepts that you simply declare "WRONG".
Simply cultural? No way. But Paul wrote within and to a cultural environment that was very different from ours, We cannot ignore culture (we don't wear sandals or robes when outside, we don't get water from a well for daily use, we don't live under an authoritarian single ruler and his army, we don't measure in cubits as examples). We must, as our first priority, attempt to determine the meaning as best we can of what both the original authors and their audiences would understand when they heard Paul's letters being read out to them. Only then we can draw out relevant applications for today that best reflect biblical principles.

The meaning of head is something that scholars have not reached consensus on. Therefore we must be cautious before affirming "This is the correct interpretation" of that word. Civil, respectful, informed dialogue becomes necessary.

John
NZ
 
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Albion

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Why? It is a testimony to latter day apostasy that this question should even be asked. And consistent with this egalitarian ethos, one of such whom i was debating with a while ago referenced a "Christian" who believed that the many condemnations of fornication was only against those done as part of pagan idolatry, which specious argumentation is a favorite among prohomosexual apologists.

Well, I wasn't saying that. The advocates of Woman's Ordination are clearly wrong, but it's not an issue that--as I said--should cause the rancor that it does. We have a great variety of denominations as it is, and if this divides them up even further, shouting at each other over it won't accomplish anything.

The churches that have women presbyters at present aren't going to give them up, and can't do so, even if they realize (as has happened) that it was a mistake. And those churches that have kept to the historic and scriptural view of the matter are not going to be moved by appeals for them to get in step with the world's values.
 
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katautumn

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If it is wrong to allow women to be ordained then I have seen God turn a bad thing and use it for his purpose as I know a number of people who have turned to Christ based upon the preaching of women.

FJ

None of us have suggested that women cannot be instrumental in leading people to Christ. We are supposed to. The great commission was not given to men exclusively. Furthermore, the Bible does indicate that women should prophesy, which in the New Testament church era literally translates to proclaiming Christ or sharing the gospel rather than foresee future events.

Now, I will go so far as to say that it's hard to determine if God can use women who are going against explicit Bible commands for good. Don't forget, the most subtle tactics the devil uses are within the church. He doesn't fool much with the realm of the lost, as they're already under his control. He does, however, love to take the truth and turn it into a lie. In other words, he can take something from the Bible, twist it ever so slightly, and make sure that the church will eventually accept it as legitimate doctrine.

This is why it's so vital that Bible-preaching churches separate from the world and from apostate teachers. When churches allow culture to set the dialog for doctrine, that's when you start dabbling in politically correct heresies and eventually the devil laughs, because what was once considered a grievous offense against the clear Bible teachings is now being embraced as church doctrine and any church that clings to the Word of God is labeled bigoted or closed-minded or (God forbid!) old fashioned.
 
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Albion

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Admittedly I struggled with this for a very long time. I am ordained by a denomination that does ordain women. I came to the conclusion after study and prayer that Paul was writing to a particular Church with a specific problem and that he probably was not addressing the Church Universal. Can I prove this? No. If it is wrong to allow women to be ordained then I have seen God turn a bad thing and use it for his purpose as I know a number of people who have turned to Christ based upon the preaching of women.
...and that deals with only one of the historic and Biblical objections to women's ordination. I think you are referring to the women being silent in church passage, but most churches that do not ordain women don't base their decision on that verse.


We should keep in mind that the first to proclaim the Risen Christ was an Angel, following that it was two women.
Are we on a different subject now?
 
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Albion

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Are you referring to the historic argument from tradition? In part; That women cannot be an icon of Christ due to their gender? In any case it's not a deal breaker for me, never really has been.

It was in my mind as being one element in the case against women's ordination, but I was mainly thinking of I Timothy and II Timothy where we find the "male only" requirements for one to be a minister of the Gospel (deacon, bishop/presbyter).
 
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Albion

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Does the Bible then require that Deacons and Presbyters be married? Is it your contention that single men may not be ordained? Can a man without children be a Presbyter? These marriage and fatherhood also seem to be requirements according to the passage in 1st Timothy.

My view of this is that proponents of women's ordination can find a way to dismiss every one of the reasons for maintaining the traditional male orders. The point is that there is not a SINGLE strong and explicit proof text or even an argument from tradition that's in favor of WO while there are many that are against it. So if it's necessary, the proponents will sooner or later get down to "God loves everyone" and "Don't you believe in equality?" just like the folks who want homosexual clergy or easy divorce or abortion or any other traditional moral standard to be set aside for them.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Does the Bible then require that Deacons and Presbyters be married? Is it your contention that single men may not be ordained? Can a man without children be a Presbyter? These marriage and fatherhood also seem to be requirements according to the passage in 1st Timothy.

There was a point where I used to agree with this actually. Eventually though I came to the conclusion that the qualifications were listed that way because they were in a culture where virtually every man of age was married. Thus it was simply speaking about what they were going to be dealing with most often.

For example, the Greek doesn't literally say "he must be married" or "he must have a wife" it actually literally says "he must be a one woman man". I don't think this means he must actually be married. I think it is more about limiting that he can't be a man who has many women (either many wives or many mistresses etc). In other words, he must be a man who is faithful.
 
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Simon_Templar

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My view of this is that proponents of women's ordination can find a way to dismiss every one of the reasons for maintaining the traditional male orders. The point is that there is not a SINGLE strong and explicit proof text or even an argument from tradition that's in favor of WO while there are many that are against it. So if it's necessary, the proponents will sooner or later get down to "God loves everyone" and "Don't you believe in equality?" just like the folks who want homosexual clergy or easy divorce or abortion or any other traditional moral standard to be set aside for them.

Which is one of the reasons that I think those groups that approve Women's ordination almost always end up sliding into "liberalism" on other issues as well. Once you've swallowed those arguments once, it gets easier to do it again.

For the record I'm not just speculating, history does show a strong trend that the approval of women's ordination is frequently followed by a fairly rapid liberal slide in general. Of course, that could very easily be because liberalization is already there working and that's what leads to Women's Ordination.
 
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