Women becoming pastors?

[CGL1023]

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

I have entertained the arguments you have very well made.

What is also true is that God is no respecter of persons; I have never been able to reconcile that and no women pastors, yet I don't ever see that included in the evidence presented.

I have difficulty with this issue yet I have to believe the English bible.

 

[SkyWriting]

? What have either of these verses to do with 1 Timothy 2:12?

You shall make no rules for women, that do not apply to yourself as well.
Men, shall make no rules just for women.
Women may make no rules for men.
Nobody shall make rules for anybody that do not apply to themself.
1 Timothy 2:12 is against the law.

---> Mathew 7: 12
In everything then, do unto others as you
would have them do unto you.
--> For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.


MEN left these letters to the churches in scripture because men
liked the idea that women should shut up in church.
Then more men will tell you that scripture "the letters" are flawless
applications of the Spirit. They are not. Paul spoke in error.

 

[SkyWriting]

God made differences in gender starting in Genesis after sin.

Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior.

The second two are mens ideas
imposed on church groups and
those letters were approved by
sinners (men, just coincidentally.)

In a perfect world women will have
no pain medications when in childbirth
and men will also rule over women and
women will not need to vote.

If you agree to all above, then you
can follow the Genesis passage well.
But don't just go half way and keep
your meds and voting rights.

 

[SkyWriting]

.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The second two are mens ideas
imposed on church groups and
those letters were approved by
sinners (men, just coincidentally.)

In a perfect world women will have
no pain medications when in childbirth
and men will also rule over women and
women will not need to vote.

If you agree to all above, then you
can follow the Genesis passage well.
But don't just go half way and keep
your meds and voting rights.

How when I quote three verses of scripture directly from the Bible, can you say two of the three verses are men's ideas?

I see you do not believe the Bible, that is too bad because it explains everything.

 

[SkyWriting]

How when I quote three verses of scripture directly from the Bible, can you say two of the three verses are men's ideas?

I see you do not believe the Bible, that is too bad because it explains everything.

You are giving up your right to vote then
and have man rule over you?

You will have children without painkillers?
You will not speak in church?
You will condemn gay family members?
If you do not, then this explains your actual views.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You shall make no rules for women, that do not apply to yourself as well.
Men, shall make no rules just for women.
Women may make no rules for men.
Nobody shall make rules for anybody that do not apply to themself.
1 Timothy 2:12 is against the law.

---> Mathew 7: 12
In everything then, do unto others as you
would have them do unto you.
--> For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.


MEN left these letters to the churches in scripture because men
liked the idea that women should shut up in church.
Then more men will tell you that scripture "the letters" are flawless
applications of the Spirit. They are not. Paul spoke in error.

Well if this is your version of reality than you and the people you know are unequally yoked with non-believers or not following the Bible.

A man is responsible to Jesus Christ for his wife and family.
Jesus Christ is responsible to the Father.

So, men who do not love their wives with the love of Christ are breaking the marriage covenant they made with God, if they are believers. If one of you are a believer, then the believer is held to God's Word to try to bring the non-beliver to Christ.

Serious business marriage.

Ephesians 5:21-24
21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also i Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.


1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that b the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and d the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 5:8
"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”

Colossians 3:19
“Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them”

1 Peter 3:7
“Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers”


This is Biblical marriage. This is God's way, but husbands are responsible to Christ for their family, just as a pastor is responsible to God for all the flock God put's under him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are giving up your right to vote then
and have man rule over you?

You will have children without painkillers?
You will not speak in church?
You will condemn gay family members?
If you do not, then this explains your actual views.

Read my post above.

You misunderstand me big time.

 

[Strong in Him]

You shall make no rules for women, that do not apply to yourself as well.
Men, shall make no rules just for women.
Women may make no rules for men.
Nobody shall make rules for anybody that do not apply to themself.
1 Timothy 2:12 is against the law.

You claim that it is contrary to the way that you interpret one Scripture.
That is not the same thing.

 

[SkyWriting]

You claim that it is contrary to the way that you interpret one Scripture. That is not the same thing.

Which one of which you speak?

Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:31 - And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Galatians 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:8 - If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Mark 12:31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1 Peter 3:9 - Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Matthew 7:1-5 - Judge not, lest that ye be not so judged as well.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are giving up your right to vote then
and have man rule over you?

You will have children without painkillers?
You will not speak in church?
You will condemn gay family members?
If you do not, then this explains your actual views.

What are you talking about? You made this stuff up. If two Christians are equally yoked and understand and respect God's Word then that is how God defines marriage.

Are you mad at me or God? I am repeating scripture and sharing it. How you get that I can't vote or have children without painkillers I do not understand.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You shall make no rules for women, that do not apply to yourself as well.
Men, shall make no rules just for women.
Women may make no rules for men.
Nobody shall make rules for anybody that do not apply to themself.
1 Timothy 2:12 is against the law.

---> Mathew 7: 12
In everything then, do unto others as you
would have them do unto you.
--> For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.


MEN left these letters to the churches in scripture because men
liked the idea that women should shut up in church.
Then more men will tell you that scripture "the letters" are flawless
applications of the Spirit. They are not. Paul spoke in error.

Oh boy. Why not just say that you do not follow Biblical theology on marriage.

I mean, all the apostles were men, so I'm not sure if you are mad at Jesus for not appointing a female apostle or what.

 

[Strong in Him]

Which one of which you speak?

Matthew 7:12 - the others you listed say much the same as this verse.

 

[SkyWriting]

Matthew 7:12 - the others you listed say much the same as this verse.

That's right! They all say to treat people equally.
Or al least as well as you would wish to be treated.

SO how do the invented gender based rules get past "the law and the prophets?"

 

[SkyWriting]

Oh boy. Why not just say that you do not follow Biblical theology on marriage. I mean, all the apostles were men, so I'm not sure if you are mad at Jesus for not appointing a female apostle or what.

So you say. Reading closely, it turns out Jesus had perhaps as many women
apostles that did not get good press. No one was appointed. They followed.

I did not follow scripture, and I got married.


7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry.

 

[Strong in Him]

That's right! They all say to treat people equally.
Or al least as well as you would wish to be treated.

SO how do the invented gender based rules get past "the law and the prophets?"

They don't "get past" the law and the prophets; I'm not sure what you are talking about.

This is probably a subject for another thread, because it's not your view on female Ministers that I'm disagreeing with, but your rigid application of Matthew 7:12.
You appear to be saying that in everything; every situation, this verse applies. In other words, don't teach, make rules for others unless you want them to make rules for you.
But it is not right to apply it so rigidly - it would be nonsense to say to a dentist, for example, "don't fix my tooth until I have been to dental school and can learn to fix your tooth". If you were to say to academic tutors, "I want to get into Med school/study law because one day I might be sick or need a lawyer and I cannot ask for one unless I am prepared to offer the same service to them in return"; I am pretty sure you'd be laughed out of the building. And if children/teenagers/employees said to their parents/teachers/bosses, "don't tell us what to do or give us guidance, unless you are prepared for us to tell you what to do and give you guidance", there'd be chaos. Taken to its extreme, you'd have to say to Jesus, "I can't accept you died on the cross for me; took my sin, unless I can die on the cross for you too." This would clearly be nonsense.

I apologise if I have somehow got this wrong, but it does appear from your posts that this is how you apply this verse.
In this thread, I assume your argument is something along the lines of, "Paul cannot make rules for us unless he is prepared for us to make rules for him. As he is dead and that is not possible; his rules to us are invalid. So if he says that women can't be leaders in church, then they can."
I agree with your conclusion; but, if this is your argument, your reasoning is incorrect.

 

[Strong in Him]

I did not follow scripture, and I got married.

Scripture does not prevent us from marrying.

 

[SkyWriting]

Scripture does not prevent us from marrying.

So are you against Paul or following his person advice to the public?

7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry.

 

[Strong in Him]

So are you against Paul or following his person advice to the public?

7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry.

Paul says, "I wish ....." not "God commands ....."; big difference.

Jesus himself taught about marriage; how can it be wrong? Apart from which, as sex outside of marriage is wrong, the human race would have died out centuries ago.

 

[SkyWriting]

Paul says, "I wish ....." not "God commands ....."; big difference.

There is no "God commands" for your imaginary gender rules, or even sexual preference hangups. You have a good imagination!