Women as pastors question

[sdowney717]

Judges 5:7
Village life ceased, it ceased in Israel, Until I, Deborah, arose, Arose a mother in Israel.

The other judges scripture says, the Lord raised up, Deborah testifies of herself,

I DEBORAH AROSE

DEBORAH NEVER WENT TO THE PEOPLE and said Thus saith the lord, as did the other prophets. But the people came to her. "And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment" (Judges 4:5b). She sat under the palm tree.

DEBORAH IN HER PROPHECIES NEVER TAUGHT MEN ANYTHING


Deborah sat under the palm tree of Deborah, A palm tree??

4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. 5 And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

HOWEVER, the Lord says something very interesting to note here in his instruction for how judges are to judge, very specific regulations. NOT I BUT THE LORD!

18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your gates, which the Lord your God gives you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with just judgment. 19 You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. 20 You shall follow what is altogether just, that you may live and inherit the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

21 “You shall not plant for yourself any tree, as a wooden image, near the altar which you build for yourself to the Lord your God. 22 You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates.


you shall not plant a TREE, THIS INCLUDES A PALM TREE!
You shall not set up sacred pillars. See these things the LORD HATES!

LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR

Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

God will overcome, He will gain Himself the victory, He will burn the chafe with unquenchable fire, and he will gather His elect into His House.

 

[Ark100]

(Note-please dont flame or throw things at me.)

I am totally supportive of women being in the pulpit and being pastors and all. My only problem is I've never seen a good one. Years ago when I went to the Methodists we had a couple and while they were good godly, christian women, I just wasnt impressed with their sermons (meaning they were read from a script) or their leadership abilities.

Now I've found women make some of the best laypeople and workers in the church. They also make good teachers, counselors, and run church offices well.

So what do you all think? Have you seen many effective female lead pastors? Is their a sexist bias in this? I know in the missionary field many house churches are pastored very effectively by women.

And then with young peope, while they work with the children, I've yet to meet a high school age youth minister who was female. Do you all think their is a sexist bias in this?

Because you havent seen a good one doesnt mean there are none. Remember there is a proverb that says
"until a man steps out of his house, he will keep thinking his house is the best' same for street, or town or country.

I'd like someone to show me where in the Bible Jesus said " I permit no woman to pastor or preach"
or where God says so. Then I'd start taking those 'women cant be pastors' crap seriously.

God will use whomever He will use. I find many women pastors preach better than men. God saying man is the head of the home does not mean God cannot use a woman to lead a nation. If it were so, we would have absolutely NO female president or head of state anywhere in this world.

the enemy is good at deceiving people, even many men of God that they continue to believe that women should not be at the pulpit to have a say or preach.

God says He will pour out HIS SPIRIT on all mankind, He didnt say on men alone, or on adults alone. He said ALL mankind, and their women will prophesy and men will dream dreams. God can cause a little boy or girl to become a preacher. God is not a limited GOD and He is not deterred by man's own ways. He is God and He chooses to use whom He chooses to use.

Ps. the woman judge in the book of Kings who judged israel was a leader. I bet God made a mistake then choosing her over many millions of men.

 

[Sakhile]

Thank you Ark100, couldn't agree more

 

[TheDag]

The other judges scripture says, the Lord raised up, Deborah testifies of herself,

I DEBORAH AROSE

Seriously? You are building a doctrine on a single word? Doesn't matter if you want to believe that is the case. However if you do then you have defeated your own argument. Paul was appointed as an apostle of God but in the passage you are so fond of quoting (while ignoring context) he writes "I". So based on your previous stated principle when "I" is used it is the person saying themselves.
Worth noting is that Israel had spiralled out of control and become evil and that resulted in them losing battles and being taken into captivity. If Deborah was self-appointed rather than appointed by God then God would not have given them the victories they had in battle. If you want to believe that battle results followed a different pattern to all the other battles in the OT then go ahead but you have relied on the argument that because something was different as proof Deborah was not appointed by God then once again you defeat your own argument.
Also worthy to note is the commander of the army of the Lord was self appointed not appointed by God according to your theory. Seems strange that he would have battle victories for appointing himself when Moses was refused entry into the promised land by God for claiming he could make water flow from a rock.
If you don't question what Paul is saying then you are failing to follow the instructions Paul gave which is exactly what God told him to write in your opinion. So you are not following God's instructions. How do you reconcile that?

DEBORAH IN HER PROPHECIES NEVER TAUGHT MEN ANYTHING

Many prophecies teach nothing so doesn't mean anything in the end.

18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your gates, which the Lord your God gives you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with just judgment. 19 You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. 20 You shall follow what is altogether just, that you may live and inherit the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

21 “You shall not plant for yourself any tree, as a wooden image, near the altar which you build for yourself to the Lord your God. 22 You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates.

That passage has absolutely nothing at all to do with the judges. The judges in this passage are not leaders of a nation like Deborah was.

Deborah was not a military judge as where these other judges. So she was no ruler OVER MEN with military authority!

Yet she ordered Barak to go to war (very much sounds like a commander) and Barak refused unless Deborah agreed to go with him. This was Barak recognising her authority from God.

 

[Assyrian]

Yes exactly, Paul is talking about a structured church setting.

So if something is written about as being not allowed , "Do not permit", who you going to go with on this, word of men or Paul who is inspired by God?

Lots of disputings about the meanings of certain words, while missing the message is going on here.

You asked what was difficult to understand about 1Tim 2:12 and I gave you a nice long answer outlining some of the problems in post 180. That was on Tuesday and the nearest thing I have had to an answer since is your dismissive comment to BFine about "Lots of disputings about the meanings of certain words". If you don't know the meaning of the words Paul used, or their relevance to what he was saying, how can you possibly understand his message?

And where does 1Timothy 2 say it is talking about a structured church setting?

 

[MercyandFaith]

I find that people often dismiss Scriptural passages (such as that about women being pastors) when they do not like it.

 

[Albion]

I find that people often dismiss Scriptural passages (such as that about women being pastors) when they do not like it.

There aren't any Scriptural passages about women being pastors to dismiss--unless you are referring to ones that exclude women as pastors.

 

[Assyrian]

There aren't any Scriptural passages about women being pastors to dismiss--unless you are referring to ones that exclude women as pastors.

Those don't exist either.

 

[Albion]

Those don't exist either.

Then, in answer to "MercyandFaith's" comment, no one has dismissed any verses dealing with the subject because of not liking them.

 

[MercyandFaith]

I'm referring to the verses about exclusion.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

(Note-please dont flame or throw things at me.)

I am totally supportive of women being in the pulpit and being pastors and all. My only problem is I've never seen a good one. Years ago when I went to the Methodists we had a couple and while they were good godly, christian women, I just wasnt impressed with their sermons (meaning they were read from a script) or their leadership abilities.

Now I've found women make some of the best laypeople and workers in the church. They also make good teachers, counselors, and run church offices well.

So what do you all think? Have you seen many effective female lead pastors? Is their a sexist bias in this? I know in the missionary field many house churches are pastored very effectively by women.

And then with young peope, while they work with the children, I've yet to meet a high school age youth minister who was female. Do you all think their is a sexist bias in this?

Indeed, it is not a matter of the performance of individual women who claim to be pastors. That's not the issue. The issue is one of how the Office of the Holy Ministry is perceived; of how the Bible speaks of it.
I have yet to be presented with a single good Biblical argument in favor of so-called "women pastors". There isn't one.

That said, I do know two women who have usurped the functions of the Pastor (with other pastors' blessings, unfortunately), and from what I've heard of them, they're quite close to myself, theologically. Except, of course, for the fact that they usurped an authority that the Bible doesn't grant them.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

Indeed, it is not a matter of the performance of individual women who claim to be pastors. That's not the issue. The issue is one of how the Office of the Holy Ministry is perceived; of how the Bible speaks of it.
I have yet to be presented with a single good Biblical argument in favor of so-called "women pastors". There isn't one.

That said, I do know two women who have usurped the functions of the Pastor (with other pastors' blessings, unfortunately), and from what I've heard of them, they're quite close to myself, theologically. Except, of course, for the fact that they usurped an authority that the Bible doesn't grant them.

1st, there were no such thing as "pastors" during Jesus's, WHO IS GOD's, time on earth, they were all called MINISTERS.

2nd, you obviously ignore 5 times when JESUS WHO IS GOD is on earth where women MINISTER.

Considering that Jesus who is God repeated His commandments to the young man of "what were the most important" ie. the commandments CHRISTians are to follow, He said that 3 times... 5 times are MANY times.

You ignore this, and you are basically advocating for segregation and slavery again like in the 19th century. Don't get me wrong, I know there were many CHRISTians (who actually follow JESUS's words e.g.. "NEITHER BE YE CALLED MASTERS, FOR THEIR IS ONE MASTER, CHRIST" and "You cannot serve two masters... you will either hate one or love the other... you canNOT serve both God and mammon)

You know why I know? Because I've read some of those letters and those books where they fought against it. That strong, LOUD, fighting minority which wanted Abolition, as JESUS commanded

Cry cry all you want, but JESUS is for this. Just like JESUS who IS God was against slavery...


If you want to ignore JESUS, who IS GOD and His actions and words, then you are basically the hateful, disgusting, majority in the 19th century who didn't want to listen to JESUS, but to everyone and ANYONE else (AKA paul or even peter)... They wouldn't listen to JESUS WHO IS GOD.

So... cry cry cry, but in the end you will fail and women WILL be pastors EQUALLY, just as slavery and segregation ended, so will this

JESUS, who is GOD, will PREVAIL

Equality--- progress, improvement.

This is discrimination, and AGAINST JESUS, who even took a woman by her hand (Peter's wife's mother/Simon's wife's mother) and told her to rise and she ministered.

JESUS WHO IS GOD THE FATHER WILL WIN AND PREVAIL OVER ALL

 

[Johnnz]

Terms and structure don't help sort through issues on this topic.

Shepherd (Greek) = pastor (Latin).
Apostle (Greek sent one) = missionary (Latin) There are many female female missionaries who teach, preach, evangelise and plant churches, the latter often been seen as indicative of an apostolic ministry. Any distinction between an apostle and a missionary is purely an historical/cultural development, not one founded in the actual text of the NT.

The professionlisation of 'ministry' with special rights and privileges was an historical development and has resulted in non biblical models of Christian leadership. Thus, a lot of the debate can be 'much sound and fury, signifying nothing' to cite a well known bard.

Historically, only Christianity has given to women their acknowledgment as equals. Any form of subjugation of women to men returns to a model set by human fallenness, not Divine purpose. The only submission of a women in the NT is to her husband, and that is to a self sacrificing servant, not a domestic 'lord' or 'leader'. That is the model set by the One Good Shepherd.

John
NZ

 

[Assyrian]

I have yet to be presented with a single good Biblical argument in favor of so-called "women pastors". There isn't one.

The fact that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, slave or free, male and female, should warn us about excluding any from ministry whom Christ has bought with his blood. There is no mention of black pastors in the bible, do we exclude them too? What about Chinese pastors?

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

The fact that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, slave or free, male and female, should warn us about excluding any from ministry whom Christ has bought with his blood. There is no mention of black pastors in the bible, do we exclude them too? What about Chinese pastors?

I'm still waiting for that good argument. All I've gotten is a hysterical nonsensical rant filled with non-sequiturs and based on nothing but emotions, instead of the Scriptures and Christian Tradition (not you), and the above misapplication (you).

 

[Johnnz]

I'm still waiting for that good argument. All I've gotten is a hysterical nonsensical rant filled with non-sequiturs and based on nothing but emotions, instead of the Scriptures and Christian Tradition (not you), and the above misapplication (you).

Who is ranting?If logical statements and reasonably based understanding of Scripture are 'hysterical nonsensical rant' any mature debate becomes impossible.

John
NZ

 

[Assyrian]

I'm still waiting for that good argument. All I've gotten is a hysterical nonsensical rant filled with non-sequiturs and based on nothing but emotions, instead of the Scriptures and Christian Tradition (not you), and the above misapplication (you).

The context is our inheritance of the promises made to Abraham Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith, and the ministries the Holy Spirit works through us Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith. But Paul's statement in Galatians goes way beyond the context of the chapter, because Paul is talking about who we are 'in Christ' which is one of Paul's great themes through his epistles. Paul's statement about there being neither male nor female is talking about who we are in Christ, if ministry is what we do in Christ, then no one is excluded. On the other hand if ministry is outside of who we are in Christ, then I want nothing to with it.

 

[stormdancer0]

Indeed, it is not a matter of the performance of individual women who claim to be pastors. That's not the issue. The issue is one of how the Office of the Holy Ministry is perceived; of how the Bible speaks of it.
I have yet to be presented with a single good Biblical argument in favor of so-called "women pastors". There isn't one.

That said, I do know two women who have usurped the functions of the Pastor (with other pastors' blessings, unfortunately), and from what I've heard of them, they're quite close to myself, theologically. Except, of course, for the fact that they usurped an authority that the Bible doesn't grant them.

Just curious. Who's authority or function did the women usurp? Were there men who were trained and ready to take that place, or were the women the only qualified applicants?

If a woman takes a pastorate that no man wants, who's authority is she usurping? When it's a choice between having a female pastor or shutting down the church?

 

[sunshine456]

1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Timothy 2:11

These I support, not the opposition.....and there will be mockers, ridiculers and unbelievers that will test, undermine and try to pull us away from the truth.

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Johnnz]

1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

There are god grounds to suggest that verse was a later insertion by some scribe. There is no mention of women having to be under obedience in the Scriptures; that comes from another source.

John
NZ