Women Are Still the Most Discriminated Against

[timlamb]

Is this suppose to be a justification for mistreatment?

This is the problem with this kind of discussion. Those that want to justify the liberated woman and "equal rights" point out the relatively few that are abused. They take the exception and want to rebuild the system to repair it.

We who say the system is good, look at it from the perspective of the "perfect world". In the perfect world the biblical family works perfectly. In an abusive home or one parent household the system falls short. The system does not fail, it was just meant for the "God Fearing".

Equal rights in the work place should not be an issue. Women should be home nurturing and men providing. But the world is not perfect and my wife must work and I cannot keep a job. The excuse of working moms in order to provide "more" for the kids is bogus. The kids need mom, not the latest sneaker.

 

[LJSGM]

In most, though not all, of the marriages of my friends at church, it is the man who is being mistreated.

I'm sorry but you'll have define the mistreatment you are speaking of in more detail.

Thousands of women are being "mistreated" everyday by being victums of domestic abuse. Do you mean the wives are beating them?

The Love and Respect book and conference have a lot to say about this, but it comes down to the fact that men need to feel respected by their wives, but most women refuse to respect their husbands the way they need, and much of the errosion of respect is due to the spirit of feminism.

Everyone deserves to be loved and respected, even women. You are getting selfishness, something that we have all have in us, mixed up with feminism, which did begin as a movement freeing women from abuse and dehumanization. Much like ending slavery. The bible says that slaves should be subject to their masters in order to give Christ a good name. That doesn't mean it was a bad thing getting rid of slavery all together.

It was the same thing with divorce. Only men were "allowed" to divorce their wives, and many many men did in fact sin in this way. Once women were allowed to divorce their husands, women, being just a sinful as men, did the same things. Women today disrespect their husbands just like men have been doing to their wives for centuries. It is the sinful nature.

Does that mean that we should control people and take away their freedom so that they do not sin?

You should know true righteousness does not come through enforcing the law nor does it come through a spirit of control and manipulation.

Having said that, the problem largely began because men took advantage of their wives and mistreated them.

It's is like the civil war.

Even though it freed people from slavery, it left the slave owners and the country in large amount of disorder and confusion.

I definitely understand what some of the men in this thread are saying, though. The media, television shows, and academia as a whole, have begun to portray men as the idiots, and quite honestly, have made us out to be the weaker sex.

I've seen only one commerical depicting this.

What about all the objectification of women in the media, made out to be sexual objects, and the majority of christian men supporting this industry with their inappropriate content addictions?

A great deal of the ADHD medication that is being given out now is nothing more than an attempt to stop boys from being boys (though I don't think people realize this is what they are doing).

that's debatable. Don't you think it's odd that this inattention is cured by stimulants? Many girls are diagnosed as well.

 

[LJSGM]

This is the problem with this kind of discussion. Those that want to justify the liberated woman and "equal rights" point out the relatively few that are abused. They take the exception and want to rebuild the system to repair it.

We who say the system is good, look at it from the perspective of the "perfect world". In the perfect world the biblical family works perfectly. In an abusive home or one parent household the system falls short. The system does not fail, it was just meant for the "God Fearing".

Equal rights in the work place should not be an issue. Women should be home nurturing and men providing. But the world is not perfect and my wife must work and I cannot keep a job. The excuse of working moms in order to provide "more" for the kids is bogus. The kids need mom, not the latest sneaker.

As I've said before, both men and women are good at certain things, but the couple should decide amoung themselves what is best for their family.

I have no idea what this has to do with feminism though.

 

[UnderHisWings1979]

I'm sorry but you'll have define the mistreatment you are speaking of in more detail.

I described an example of this in a previous post in this thread. It's the de-dignification of the man, for lack of a better word.

Thousands of women are being "mistreated" everyday by being victums of domestic abuse. Do you mean the wives are beating them?

The exception that proves the rule. I am not justifying the actions of these few people. I am merely stating that they are not the rule. Obviously this sort of behavior is deplorable. But to prove my point, there was a young man that I served with in the Navy who was being abused by his wife and no one believed him... until he ended up in ICU and almost died. Again, an exception. But this sort of behavior is not exclusive to men.

Everyone deserves to be loved and respected, even women. You are getting selfishness, something that we have all have in us, mixed up with feminism, which did begin as a movement freeing women from abuse and dehumanization. Much like ending slavery. The bible says that slaves should be subject to their masters in order to give Christ a good name. That doesn't mean it was a bad thing getting rid of slavery all together.

There is an excellent book which addresses this issue, Who Stole Feminism? It is written by a former feminist activist, describing how feminism has become something different from what it once was. My issue is not with feminism as it started, but as it has become.

It was the same thing with divorce. Only men were "allowed" to divorce their wives, and many many men did in fact sin in this way. Once women were allowed to divorce their husands, women, being just a sinful as men, did the same things. Women today disrespect their husbands just like men have been doing to their wives for centuries. It is the sinful nature.

Agreed. Point is, it goes both ways.

Does that mean that we should control people and take away their freedom so that they do not sin?

I don't think anyone is implying that women's freedom should be taken away. And I have certainly never said that. In fact, if you would pay attention to my other posts, you would see that my wife is the provider in our family. I have no issue whatsoever with women in the workplace. My issue is with the degradation of the Biblical role of husband and wife within the home.

You should know true righteousness does not come through enforcing the law nor does it come through a spirit of control and manipulation.

Again, I never said anyone should be controlling anyone.

It's is like the civil war.

Even though it freed people from slavery, it left the slave owners and the country in large amount of disorder and confusion.

Comparing women's rights to slavery is ludicrous. I do not justify the way that women have been treated in the past, but it's not even close to the evil of slavery.

I've seen only one commerical depicting this.

Pick a random sit-com, or watch the news, or The View. It's everywhere.

What about all the objectification of women in the media, made out to be sexual objects, and the majority of christian men supporting this industry with their inappropriate content addictions?

Obviously wrong, but the women who take part in that are as responsible as the men who portray these embiciles on TV (don't know if I spelled that right). It's like if a woman walks down the street in a bikini and then complains about the way men are looking at her. Sorry, but the blame goes both ways. And I realize that not all women are like that, but neither do all men produce inappropriate content for a living. It should also be noted that inappropriate contentography and prostitution are laced with women who have made the industries what they are today. It's not an issue exclusive to men. Again, I do not justify any of it, but you can't place all of the blame in one place. It's like me answering every question with, "Who ate the apple first?"

That's debatable. Don't you think it's odd that this inattention is cured by stimulants? Many girls are diagnosed as well?

The numbers are staggeringly weighted in favor of boys, which is part of my point. If it was a simple, chemical problem, then it should be far more evenly distributed. But, in fact, there are 3 or 4 times as many boys on it, and that's a conservative estimate. Some studies say as many as 90% of children diagnosed with ADHD are boys. My last job was at a pharmacy, where I know for a fact we had only 2 girls on ADHD medicine and hundreds of boys. The fact that drugs calm kids down is not proof of a medical problem. College students take those drugs all the time because they help them focus. It works just as well for kids who aren't diagnosed with ADHD. Yes, there are some children who have a real disorder. But these are the kinds of kids who fall asleep when you give them caffeine because their bodies are wired totally different. They are the exception, not the rule.

 

[LJSGM]

I described an example of this in a previous post in this thread. It's the de-dignification of the man, for lack of a better word.

Women have dignity as well. I do not advocate anyone's dignity to be taken away.

The exception that proves the rule. I am not justifying the actions of these few people. I am merely stating that they are not the rule. Obviously this sort of behavior is deplorable. But to prove my point, there was a young man that I served with in the Navy who was being abused by his wife and no one believed him... until he ended up in ICU and almost died. Again, an exception. But this sort of behavior is not exclusive to men.

Well, then, your wives that degrade their husbands is an exception as well, and most women do not do such a thing. If they do, they do it as much as their husbands.

I don't think anyone is implying that women's freedom should be taken away. And I have certainly never said that. In fact, if you would pay attention to my other posts, you would see that my wife is the provider in our family. I have no issue whatsoever with women in the workplace. My issue is with the degradation of the Biblical role of husband and wife within the home.

That is what subjection is, and that is what most conservative christians believe; that a woman needs to be controlled and it's man God given right to do so as head of the household.

Again, I never said anyone should be controlling anyone.

That is what everyone is advocating, except they call them "roles" as a form of deception.

Comparing women's rights to slavery is ludicrous. I do not justify the way that women have been treated in the past, but it's not even close to the evil of slavery.

No group of people or race or thing has suffered such as women as have, for thousand upon thousands of years. Do not tell me that it is not evil what has been done, and what is still being done to women.

In some parts of India, women who do not produce a male heir get burned alive, or their husbands take another wife. Do you even realize???? How could you not????

Pick a random sit-com, or watch the news, or The View. It's everywhere.



Obviously wrong, but the women who take part in that are as responsible as the men who portray these embiciles on TV (don't know if I spelled that right). It's like if a woman walks down the street in a bikini and then complains about the way men are looking at her. Sorry, but the blame goes both ways. And I realize that not all women are like that, but neither do all men produce inappropriate content for a living. It should also be noted that inappropriate contentography and prostitution are laced with women who have made the industries what they are today. It's not an issue exclusive to men. Again, I do not justify any of it, but you can't place all of the blame in one place. It's like me answering every question with, "Who ate the apple first?"

So, women are some how to blame for these ads on TV?

The numbers are staggeringly weighted in favor of boys, which is part of my point. If it was a simple, chemical problem, then it should be far more evenly distributed. But, in fact, there are 3 or 4 times as many boys on it, and that's a conservative estimate. Some studies say as many as 90% of children diagnosed with ADHD are boys. My last job was at a pharmacy, where I know for a fact we had only 2 girls on ADHD medicine and hundreds of boys. The fact that drugs calm kids down is not proof of a medical problem. College students take those drugs all the time because they help them focus. It works just as well for kids who aren't diagnosed with ADHD. Yes, there are some children who have a real disorder. But these are the kinds of kids who fall asleep when you give them caffeine because their bodies are wired totally different. They are the exception, not the rule.

And you believe that it is feminism that is causing this?

How strange, there is a person I know, a stay at home mom, catholic, faithful wife, and they have their son on medication for ADHD, they are also somewhat controlling.

But me and my family, a feminist, and I don't have my ADHD son on any meds. I'm even thinking that it's all just boyish behavior. I encourage my sons to be men, and I love them very much.

The pharisees used to say "thank God I'm not a gentile, dog, or a woman."

Feminism, to me, brings to the table the realization that women were beautifully and wonderfully made by God and that it is a good thing to be a woman. As much as it is to be a man.

 

[lux et lex]

A man would be made to feel bad about staying at home and not being the primary provider for his family. Equality does not mean being the same.

This is a non-answer. Equality doesn't mean being the same. Well obviously I cannot be exactly the same as a man. There are physical differences. But aside from that, I have no idea why I can't intellectually be equal, and be equal in the workforce. The idea that women are the "nurturers" is a cop out. It's keeping women down and out of the workforce. My ex-boyfriend had this very idea that he needed to be head of household, and that even though I will make more money as an attorney than he will as a Christian counselor, that if our household starts to suffer, it should be me that leaves my job. That was the last straw and why I ultimately broke up with him after 2.5 years. Money isn't everything, but why struggle when one spouse has the earning capability the other does not? He would have made a wonderful stay at home dad. But he insisted as a Christian man that was not his place. I recognize his beliefs, but I cannot submit to them. I will completely agree that children need parental attention, but I don't understand why that has to come from the mother. My father was there for me emotionally/physically/mentally more than my mother ever has. I don't blame her, I just clicked more with my dad. And he worked 40+ hours/week and went to college part time from when I was 6 until 16. My mom worked at home during that time, but I always had way more respect for my dad. He is a very devout Catholic, and he encourages me to be an strong independant woman who is able to care for herself and make her way in the world. He encouraged me to go to college right away, and to pursue my professional degree. There is none of this assigned gender roles bit. I am thankful I was brought up in this manner, because it makes me respect him more as a man and my mother more as a woman because they are an equal partnership without prescribed gender roles. That is what I want for myself. Like I have said previously, in a partner I want a companion, not a supervisor.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

nor would I ever even think of it

women intimidate me to be honest

Not ALL western women are intimidating. But it is true they have become pretty brass due to all the feminist "grrl power, hear me roar" nonsense.

The most honorable position for a woman(other than a devout) is a mother. Nothing is more rewarding than that. Allot of women I know that were all work and social who thought motherhood was a "low" position are actually very lonely unfulfilled unhappy people now. How many hard-nosed feminists do you see that look truly happy to you? The Gospel tells wives to be humble and meek to their husbands and realize that they are the head of the households, by God's choice. A true Christian wife doesn't try to usurp the authority of her husband. So many marriages have been ruined or hurt because this simple fact cannot be followed


Moreover, I do not allow a woman to teach or to usurp authority over a man. Instead, she is to be quiet. - 1 Timothy 2:12


Rebellious women tend to not like this verse. but hey , they probably do not understand the things of God.

 

[Nadiine]

This is a non-answer. Equality doesn't mean being the same. Well obviously I cannot be exactly the same as a man. There are physical differences. But aside from that, I have no idea why I can't intellectually be equal, and be equal in the workforce. The idea that women are the "nurturers" is a cop out. It's keeping women down and out of the workforce. My ex-boyfriend had this very idea that he needed to be head of household, and that even though I will make more money as an attorney than he will as a Christian counselor, that if our household starts to suffer, it should be me that leaves my job. That was the last straw and why I ultimately broke up with him after 2.5 years. Money isn't everything, but why struggle when one spouse has the earning capability the other does not? He would have made a wonderful stay at home dad. But he insisted as a Christian man that was not his place. I recognize his beliefs, but I cannot submit to them. I will completely agree that children need parental attention, but I don't understand why that has to come from the mother. My father was there for me emotionally/physically/mentally more than my mother ever has. I don't blame her, I just clicked more with my dad. And he worked 40+ hours/week and went to college part time from when I was 6 until 16. My mom worked at home during that time, but I always had way more respect for my dad. He is a very devout Catholic, and he encourages me to be an strong independant woman who is able to care for herself and make her way in the world. He encouraged me to go to college right away, and to pursue my professional degree. There is none of this assigned gender roles bit. I am thankful I was brought up in this manner, because it makes me respect him more as a man and my mother more as a woman because they are an equal partnership without prescribed gender roles. That is what I want for myself. Like I have said previously, in a partner I want a companion, not a supervisor.

Nothing wrong with this as long as 1 of the parents is home raising
their own kids (if at all possible).

Not everybody will fit into the Beaver Cleaver cookie cutter family
mold, but the husband absolutely can stay at home & raise the kids
AND be head of the home.
I guess income rules headship in the secular world - if you don't make
the most, you have to submit.
That's not how God set it up.

It just might not work with his ego - but I see nothing wrong with it
becuz he can still be head of the home (in fact moreso, he's "hands
on" management)

 

[ERice2nd]

Nothing wrong with this as long as 1 of the parents is home raising
their own kids (if at all possible).

Not everybody will fit into the Beaver Cleaver cookie cutter family
mold, but the husband absolutely can stay at home & raise the kids
AND be head of the home.
I guess income rules headship in the secular world - if you don't make
the most, you have to submit.
That's not how God set it up.

It just might not work with his ego - but I see nothing wrong with it
becuz he can still be head of the home (in fact moreso, he's "hands
on" management)

This says it nicely . there is nothing wrong with the woman making more money or the dad staying home taking care of the house and kids .

I understand that God wants the man to lead the household, I never quite understood what that meant though. my own father was abusive and not a very good role model in this area to say the least. I think of the husband and wife as a team united for a common goal, running the family mainly.

I feel I am ready to take my place as "Head of the household" and learn what that means but there is one thing I do know, I cant do that alone, I need a woman to help me with that, to encourage me and support me, to be my companion and help mate as God made her to be. I dont want a slave and totally submissive woman who wont contribute or will expect me to have all of the answers, I am human and I cant know everything.

Yes, I agree with lux ex lex, I want a companion, not a slave. I want an encourager, not a follower, I want support, not a burden. this is how I believe God intended it, for the woman to be a companion and helper as God said "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him" seemsto me that as a helper she is a supporter and encourager, not a follower, we are suppose to follow Jesus arent we? so why is it some people think a woman should follow me? no, I refuse that kind of relationship, if a woman cant be a helper and companion then I cant be the man she wants.

 

[&Abel]

You don't say where you live, but I've heard Asian women are very quiet and eager to be submissive, but then you could become unequally yoked or you could end up with a bride who wants to turn to Christianity.

Here I am trying to be a matchmaker. lol

Anyhow, have you thought of that? I know some men who prefer to be with Asian women and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm canadian

I tend to be most attracted to latin women

go figure

 

[UnderHisWings1979]

This is a non-answer. Equality doesn't mean being the same. Well obviously I cannot be exactly the same as a man. There are physical differences. But aside from that, I have no idea why I can't intellectually be equal, and be equal in the workforce. The idea that women are the "nurturers" is a cop out. It's keeping women down and out of the workforce. My ex-boyfriend had this very idea that he needed to be head of household, and that even though I will make more money as an attorney than he will as a Christian counselor, that if our household starts to suffer, it should be me that leaves my job. That was the last straw and why I ultimately broke up with him after 2.5 years. Money isn't everything, but why struggle when one spouse has the earning capability the other does not? He would have made a wonderful stay at home dad. But he insisted as a Christian man that was not his place. I recognize his beliefs, but I cannot submit to them. I will completely agree that children need parental attention, but I don't understand why that has to come from the mother. My father was there for me emotionally/physically/mentally more than my mother ever has. I don't blame her, I just clicked more with my dad. And he worked 40+ hours/week and went to college part time from when I was 6 until 16. My mom worked at home during that time, but I always had way more respect for my dad. He is a very devout Catholic, and he encourages me to be an strong independant woman who is able to care for herself and make her way in the world. He encouraged me to go to college right away, and to pursue my professional degree. There is none of this assigned gender roles bit. I am thankful I was brought up in this manner, because it makes me respect him more as a man and my mother more as a woman because they are an equal partnership without prescribed gender roles. That is what I want for myself. Like I have said previously, in a partner I want a companion, not a supervisor.

I agree with you that if one of you is capable of earning more income, in the majority of cases it is better for the one who earns more money to continue working. I don't know how many times I have had to clarify this point, but I am a house-husband, as it were, myself, so I am not saying this is not in keeping with the Biblical roles of husband and wife.

I think there is a huge misconception about the difference between the Biblical roles within the family and "gender roles" within society. I am not advocating that there be any differences socially (except where those differences are explicit, such as cases where most women are not physically strong enough to perform a task... although if a woman is strong enough, again, there should be no distinction made between man and woman of equal qualification).

The Biblical role of husband and wife is not one of the husband controlling the wife. If that is what the husband is doing, he is not performing his Biblical role. I will try to explain what I mean. My wife is the bread-winner in our family. It is my responsibility to set a budget which we both agree upon, and she administers the finances (this is not a wife-role in our home as much as it is simply that she is better at it than me). I cook, and we do the dishes together. I take out the trash. I fix things around the house. I take care of the yard. I am also a full-time student. I park my car on the side of the house so she can have the driveway (we have no garage). I have never met a woman who does not want her husband to open the door for her, to give her the best parking spot, etc. Ultimately, the responsibility of the husband is to die for his family if he has to, and I firmly believe this. But how can you expect your husband to do all this for you, to buy you flowers, to be chivalrous, when you take away the things that make HIM unique? You see, everything that we, as husbands, try to do for our wives (at least speaking for myself) is to honor that which makes her unique, that which makes her woman. All I ask, in turn, is that she honor that which makes me man, that which makes me unique. Part of that is the spiritual difference. The Biblical job of the husband is to provide spiritual covering over the family. That implicitly requires some level of authority. This should not be a CONTROLLING authority, however, but a spiritual authority. I never tell my wife what she must do, I simply tell her what I believe is best for our family. She makes the choice of her will to follow my leadership. But nothing should ever be forced.

 

[&Abel]

deleted

 

[Nadiine]

This says it nicely . there is nothing wrong with the woman making more money or the dad staying home taking care of the house and kids .

I understand that God wants the man to lead the household, I never quite understood what that meant though. my own father was abusive and not a very good role model in this area to say the least. I think of the husband and wife as a team united for a common goal, running the family mainly.

I feel I am ready to take my place as "Head of the household" and learn what that means but there is one thing I do know, I cant do that alone, I need a woman to help me with that, to encourage me and support me, to be my companion and help mate as God made her to be. I dont want a slave and totally submissive woman who wont contribute or will expect me to have all of the answers, I am human and I cant know everything.

Yes, I agree with lux ex lex, I want a companion, not a slave. I want an encourager, not a follower, I want support, not a burden. this is how I believe God intended it, for the woman to be a companion and helper as God said "It is not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him" seemsto me that as a helper she is a supporter and encourager, not a follower, we are suppose to follow Jesus arent we? so why is it some people think a woman should follow me? no, I refuse that kind of relationship, if a woman cant be a helper and companion then I cant be the man she wants.

I think alot of the problems stem from our own fallen & corrupted
perspectives that this secular world shapes for us.
I also think it's important to add that the world also shapes some of
the NASTY stereotypes as well.

Becuz of a minority of controlling idiots, both men and the bible standard of authority are undermined and attacked unecessarily.
*& this is where I add that men NEED to be taught & raised in
the proper concepts of Godly authority too. Not to Lord it over
others as a dictator, but view his wife as the equal partner that
God gave him to help him succeed in running a smooth and
productive, God fearing home.

He's to lead & mentor the "weaker vessel" - the problem is, (from
what I hear) there aren't a whole lot of men leading the home in
getting the family to church, teaching them things of the Lord,
giving family devotions when kids are younger, etc.
That is one way they're to be the leader - praying for his family,
seeking God in the correct decisions to make, etc.

As I see the woman, God has gifted her with the qualities or gifts
that dad doesn't have . . so together, they make a powerful team.

It's too bad it doesn't work as God intended (then again, what haven't
we corrupted that He established).

 

[&Abel]

I agree with you that if one of you is capable of earning more income, in the majority of cases it is better for the one who earns more money to continue working. I don't know how many times I have had to clarify this point, but I am a house-husband, as it were, myself, so I am not saying this is not in keeping with the Biblical roles of husband and wife.

I think there is a huge misconception about the difference between the Biblical roles within the family and "gender roles" within society. I am not advocating that there be any differences socially (except where those differences are explicit, such as cases where most women are not physically strong enough to perform a task... although if a woman is strong enough, again, there should be no distinction made between man and woman of equal qualification).

The Biblical role of husband and wife is not one of the husband controlling the wife. If that is what the husband is doing, he is not performing his Biblical role. I will try to explain what I mean. My wife is the bread-winner in our family. It is my responsibility to set a budget which we both agree upon, and she administers the finances (this is not a wife-role in our home as much as it is simply that she is better at it than me). I cook, and we do the dishes together. I take out the trash. I fix things around the house. I take care of the yard. I am also a full-time student. I park my car on the side of the house so she can have the driveway (we have no garage). I have never met a woman who does not want her husband to open the door for her, to give her the best parking spot, etc. Ultimately, the responsibility of the husband is to die for his family if he has to, and I firmly believe this. But how can you expect your husband to do all this for you, to buy you flowers, to be chivalrous, when you take away the things that make HIM unique? You see, everything that we, as husbands, try to do for our wives (at least speaking for myself) is to honor that which makes her unique, that which makes her woman. All I ask, in turn, is that she honor that which makes me man, that which makes me unique. Part of that is the spiritual difference. The Biblical job of the husband is to provide spiritual covering over the family. That implicitly requires some level of authority. This should not be a CONTROLLING authority, however, but a spiritual authority. I never tell my wife what she must do, I simply tell her what I believe is best for our family. She makes the choice of her will to follow my leadership. But nothing should ever be forced.

good points!

 

[&Abel]

I think you made the best points in the thread thus far

its more about being the spiritual center of the family, sacrificing yourself for your family just like christ sacrificed himself for the church(and a man is told to love his wife just as christ loved the church right?)

guiding the family as best as he can towards where he feels god is directing them, and making sure they stay on that track(just as christ guides the church)

but this takes a level of standup-ness that many men today are not up for and wouldn't be willing to do

I don't think I'm in a position where I could handle that yet, but I'm getting there

 

[&Abel]

this type of authority will not exist in heaven but here on earth in this reality god has told us what is best and how he would like us to operate

this isn't about liberation or oppression

its about putting gods interests above our own which is what this faith is all about

 

[ERice2nd]

I agree with you that if one of you is capable of earning more income, in the majority of cases it is better for the one who earns more money to continue working. I don't know how many times I have had to clarify this point, but I am a house-husband, as it were, myself, so I am not saying this is not in keeping with the Biblical roles of husband and wife.

I think there is a huge misconception about the difference between the Biblical roles within the family and "gender roles" within society. I am not advocating that there be any differences socially (except where those differences are explicit, such as cases where most women are not physically strong enough to perform a task... although if a woman is strong enough, again, there should be no distinction made between man and woman of equal qualification).

The Biblical role of husband and wife is not one of the husband controlling the wife. If that is what the husband is doing, he is not performing his Biblical role. I will try to explain what I mean. My wife is the bread-winner in our family. It is my responsibility to set a budget which we both agree upon, and she administers the finances (this is not a wife-role in our home as much as it is simply that she is better at it than me). I cook, and we do the dishes together. I take out the trash. I fix things around the house. I take care of the yard. I am also a full-time student. I park my car on the side of the house so she can have the driveway (we have no garage). I have never met a woman who does not want her husband to open the door for her, to give her the best parking spot, etc. Ultimately, the responsibility of the husband is to die for his family if he has to, and I firmly believe this. But how can you expect your husband to do all this for you, to buy you flowers, to be chivalrous, when you take away the things that make HIM unique? You see, everything that we, as husbands, try to do for our wives (at least speaking for myself) is to honor that which makes her unique, that which makes her woman. All I ask, in turn, is that she honor that which makes me man, that which makes me unique. Part of that is the spiritual difference. The Biblical job of the husband is to provide spiritual covering over the family. That implicitly requires some level of authority. This should not be a CONTROLLING authority, however, but a spiritual authority. I never tell my wife what she must do, I simply tell her what I believe is best for our family. She makes the choice of her will to follow my leadership. But nothing should ever be forced.

Nicely said . God never made a slave, mankind did that :O. as a man, I appreciate a strong willed woman who will also allow me to lead once in awhile, cause as much as she doesnt want to be controlled, neither do I . lux et lex makes a lot of sense although she seems to have deep emotional feelings about this subject, which is fine, nothing wrong with feeling strongly about something . I feel pretty strongly about it myself . anyways, a strong willed woman to me is one who will take the lead once in awhile if it is an area she can better handle, like nuturing the kids, I am a little clumsy when it comes to kids but have been told I would make a good father . In no way am I saying I wont help with that though, as a father it is my duty to be sure that the boy becomes a man and learns what that means and that the girl is made aware of what a good man is so she can find a good husband when the time comes. women on the other hand are natural nuturers, and no woman should be made to feel ashamed of this, it is totally natural and highly attractive, to me anyway. its the mother instinct that I believe 90% of the women of this world have . so lux et lex, keep on the look out for the right man that fits your beliefs as they do exist and are out there waiting, not saying you have to have a man, but who wants to go through life alone for all time? hehe. and to tell the truth, if I can meet a woman with similar beliefs to you I will try my best to win her over .

 

[UnderHisWings1979]

Women have dignity as well. I do not advocate anyone's dignity to be taken away.

Not intentionally, no. However, I think that is the consequence of what you are advocating.

Well, then, your wives that degrade their husbands is an exception as well, and most women do not do such a thing. If they do, they do it as much as their husbands.

I agree. My point is both are exceptions, and not the social norm. The accepted social norm is equality in the home.

That is what subjection is, and that is what most conservative christians believe; that a woman needs to be controlled and it's man God given right to do so as head of the household.

I don't know a single man that believes this. This is your misunderstanding of what we believe. I am sorry that you cannot see it, but there is a difference between subjection and control, and the Biblical meaning of submission. It is not a matter of PHYSICAL submission, but of spiritual, because God's design for marriage is that the man exemplify Christ's love for the Church in his love for his wife.

That is what everyone is advocating, except they call them "roles" as a form of deception.

I resent that. Your implication that I am part of some great conspiracy to subjucate women, and that I am lying to deceive you, is insulting. This is what I refered to as the 'spirit of feminism.'

No group of people or race or thing has suffered such as women as have, for thousand upon thousands of years. Do not tell me that it is not evil what has been done, and what is still being done to women.

In some parts of India, women who do not produce a male heir get burned alive, or their husbands take another wife. Do you even realize???? How could you not????

Actually, if you want to speak HISTORICALLY, no group or race has suffered more that Jews. And NOTHING that has ever happened to women can compare to the holocaust. After Jews, comes Christians. Millions of Christians have been slaughtered, and have endured unspeakable tortue. Look at Roman times. To compare the treatment of women to the mass genocide of Christians is also absurd. But this thread is about TODAY, and as I understand it, we were talking specifically about the United States.

So, women are some how to blame for these ads on TV?

Not entirely. My point is, neither are men entirely to blame. The social problems of our day cannot be placed solely on the shoulders of EITHER gender. That's all I'm saying.

And you believe that it is feminism that is causing this?

I believe that modern feminism is a strong contributing factor. But I think we differ in our definitions of modern feminism.

How strange, there is a person I know, a stay at home mom, catholic, faithful wife, and they have their son on medication for ADHD, they are also somewhat controlling.

But me and my family, a feminist, and I don't have my ADHD son on any meds. I'm even thinking that it's all just boyish behavior. I encourage my sons to be men, and I love them very much.

Good for you. I am not making a specific accusation about any one person, though, but rather a general statement about society. And the facts support it. Again, your example is the exception that proves the rule.

The pharisees used to say "thank God I'm not a gentile, dog, or a woman."

And Jesus spoke out against them.

Feminism, to me, brings to the table the realization that women were beautifully and wonderfully made by God and that it is a good thing to be a woman. As much as it is to be a man.

Again, I think we have very different definitions of modern feminism. I agree that it is a good thing to be a woman. But, as said before, I think that it is unfair to try to tell men to treat women as women in the sense of buying them flowers, etc, but then do nothing in return to embrace what makes him a man.

I will sumarize my problem with modern feminism with a single example. In the military, I absolutely agree that women should be allowed to join. However, it has not gotten to the point, that women are held to such a lower standard of physical readiness that many of them cannot perform the tasks necessary to do their job. I used to work in the engine room of a Naval ship. I had several women working above me and with me. Some of them were outstanding sailors and engineers, just as some of the men were. However, every man was required to be able to carry a man out of the space in case of a fire. The women were not required to be able to do this. The consequence? If I had been standing watch with a woman instead of a man when there was a fire in the engine room, I would have died. THAT, to me, sums up the problem with feminism. There is nothing wrong with the fact that women are not as strong as men. I don't want them to be. Big, strong, burly women, to me, are not as beautiful. It is their beauty that makes them so special to me. In every way I hold my wife in esteem above myself. The fact that she can't lift me up doesn't change that, any more than equality changes the fact that she will never be able to lift me up.

 

[&Abel]

its incredibly attractive and deserving of much respect and admiration

I almost wish I could nurture like that because its a huge show of love

but I'm definitely more of a guider, decision maker, protector

BUT I'm still working out a lot of flaws that keep from even doing this properly in my own life for just me

 

[ERice2nd]

I think alot of the problems stem from our own fallen & corrupted
perspectives that this secular world shapes for us.
I also think it's important to add that the world also shapes some of
the NASTY stereotypes as well.

Becuz of a minority of controlling idiots, both men and the bible standard of authority are undermined and attacked unecessarily.
*& this is where I add that men NEED to be taught & raised in
the proper concepts of Godly authority too. Not to Lord it over
others as a dictator, but view his wife as the equal partner that
God gave him to help him succeed in running a smooth and
productive, God fearing home.

He's to lead & mentor the "weaker vessel" - the problem is, (from
what I hear) there aren't a whole lot of men leading the home in
getting the family to church, teaching them things of the Lord,
giving family devotions when kids are younger, etc.
That is one way they're to be the leader - praying for his family,
seeking God in the correct decisions to make, etc.

As I see the woman, God has gifted her with the qualities or gifts
that dad doesn't have . . so together, they make a powerful team.

It's too bad it doesn't work as God intended (then again, what haven't
we corrupted that He established).

I know what you mean by that last statement, we seem to corrupt a lot of what God wants, whether its intentional or not, going way back to the eating of the forbidden fruit :O. but I do agree with you, it is important to teach the boys what it means to be head of the household, not a controller but a lover and supporter as well, like the woman should be.

I guess in my veiw, the man and woman lead together, but it seems that the man is to lead a bit more then the woman according to God. like a 51/49 relationship or something, where the man just has that little extra leadership. frankly I prefer the 50/50 but if a woman wants a Godly home in a 51/49 way then I can easily accept that and take my role . as long as the woman is supportive and not a burden and that she encourages instead of leaving me to it to stumble.