Women apostles, pastors & bishops [NOT A DEBATE!]

[jazzypooh]

Hello Forum ,

i was reading the following in a ministry's statement of faith, and it raised a few questions.

We do not believe that Women can have authority over men, either in the home or the church. We do believe and agree that women can do anything in a church that men can do as preach, teach, prophecy, operate in the gifts of the spirit, but we do not believe that they can be an Apostle or a Pastor (unless along side their husbands, who is the main pastor of the church and final authority in all things). A woman cannot usurp authority or have the ultimate authority in a church or home when decisions have to be made because God is a God of order.

i agree with this, but the underlined portion is where the question comes in at. i believe that when God chooses a mate for you, He EQUALLY yokes the 2 of you together so that your callings agree or complement each other. so i am inclined to agree with this statement, but what if the woman is not married or has become a widow?

at the ministry i'm attending right now the pastor recently died a few years ago, and his wife stepped up as overseer, (not pastor). prior to that, the structure was set up as it says in this statement of faith - she was ministering alongside her husband. she has stated many times that she is not a pastor and is not called to be one. but she is leading us right now, so in a sense she is actually pastoring us. she has said herself that she doesn't believe God calls women to be apostles or bishops. she believes that women who call themselves apostles or bishops have gone out of the will of God.

i understand why she said this, but at the same time i've seen some women apostles/bishops that were very anointed. but on the other hand, i know better than to judge by a person's gifts... the Bible says we'll know them by their FRUITS, not their gifts. and we must try the spirit by the Spirit to see if it's of God. so are these women in error? and if so, what about the people who are genuinely touched by their ministries?

in the case with my church, i believe God has given her grace to lead us considering the situation. i also believe that if a woman is leading a church, she is not leading according to her gender but according to the Spirit that's within her. so do you believe that's the case concerning widows? God will give them grace to lead until He sends another undershepherd?

We believe that in all cases, the truth and what is right Biblically is in the middle between the two extremes that are represented. Like a train that runs on two tracks. Like Law and Grace. You cannot have all one without the other. Some want all Grace and you end up with a license to sin. Others all Law and you end up with pure legalism. Such it is with any issue or doctrine, even as the issue of women's roles in the church above. There is always a balance in scripture which is in the middle between the two extremes that men try to make.

this i most definitely agree with.

please note the question that is being asked. this is NOT a debate. i am not asking if any of these ministry gifts or spiritual gifts are in operation. obviously i believe they are. and i am not asking if a woman is allowed to preach, teach, prophesy, etc. i believe a woman can do all those things. i also believe that a woman can be called to the offices of evangelist, teacher, and prophetess (Eph. 4:11). the question comes in about the pastor and apostle. are women not to take on these roles in the church unless it's alongside their husbands? and if that is the case, what happens if their husband goes home to be with the Lord? should they seek some other covering?

what is your opinion on this topic? please provide Scripture! and please do not debate. i am not looking for a debate, and i'm not looking for extremes. i'm looking for that middle ground, which i believe is found in the Word of God and not any other place. so please provide Scripture.

i know StrongInHim is very good with this topic. maybe you can provide some insight?

Love,
~jazzy

 

[Strong in Him]

i know StrongInHim is very good with this topic. maybe you can provide some insight?

Thank you for the compliment . I'm not sure that I can answer this without breaking the "No Debate" rule, and I'm not an expert anyway, but I'll have a go.

I would guess that their statement about a woman ministering alongside her husband may have been taken from Acts 18, where Priscilla and Aquila together taught Apollos and "explained the word of God to him more adequately" (v26).

Paul does say, when talking about marriage, that man is head of the woman just as Christ is head of the church (Eph 5:23). He also urges wives to submit to their husbands (Eph 5:22; Col 3:18.) It was still pretty much a patriarchal society in those days - man was the breadwinner, the educated one, the provider; women were not allowed to learn or have an education, their place was at home with the children. As head of the household, the other members followed the man. So in Acts 16 when the jailer was converted and baptised, his household were too. We are not told that they all became believers, but he'd been baptised, so they were. In Genesis 17, God made a covenant with Abraham and told him to be circumcised as a sign of this covenant. He was - so was his son and all the males in his household.
So I guess that if you have the view that man is head of the household plus the view that women cannot teach or have authority over a man; yet a woman is called, gifted to a role that you consider only a man should have, then the answer is for them to minister alongside each other, for which there is Scriptural precedence, because the man's presence somehow provides a "covering" for the woman.

Scripture does not say that a woman cannot teach, prophesy or evangelise if she is not married - Philip had 4 unmarried daughters who all prophesied (Acts 21:9).

For what it's worth, I think people have got the roles of marriage and ministry somewhat muddled.
Marriage is a calling, it is also a relationship and partnership. Paul does tell wives to submit to their husbands, he also tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Husbands and wives should respect and love each other, giving themselves physically only to the other, and, ideally, praying for and with each other. If this happens and God has called two people to be together, then I think you're right - their gifts and maybe even ministries may well complement each other.

Preaching or pastoring a church is also a calling, but I do not think it is of the same nature. For one thing, marriage is, ideally, for life. But if God calls you to preach or be a pastor, it may be only for a season and then he may call you to do something else.
I believe that God can call a woman to preach or pastor a church, but I still think that is a different role form being a wife. So, for me, it is not a matter of going outside your role, it is just obeying what God has called you to do.

but what if the woman is not married or has become a widow?

It's impossible to answer that, partly because Scripture doesn't say, and partly because I do not believe that the gifts, or calling, of God are dependent on marital status.

at the ministry i'm attending right now the pastor recently died a few years ago, and his wife stepped up as overseer, (not pastor). prior to that, the structure was set up as it says in this statement of faith - she was ministering alongside her husband. she has stated many times that she is not a pastor and is not called to be one. but she is leading us right now, so in a sense she is actually pastoring us. she has said herself that she doesn't believe God calls women to be apostles or bishops. she believes that women who call themselves apostles or bishops have gone out of the will of God.

Well I'm not sure I understand that. If the Mission statement said, and the woman truly believed, that the only way she could minister to people and still be Scriptural was alongside her husband, then when he died, surely she should have stepped down, been asked to step down or stopped what she was doing? This would be living out what they said they believed and would be consistent. If she stepped up to take over her husband's work, and the church let her, then surely they are all going against their own mission statement? Wouldn't it have been better for them to wait on God to provide another married couple, or maybe a single man, to lead them, if that is how they believe it should be done?

No matter if you decide to call yourself "overseer" instead of "bishop" or "pastor"; that is just a title. If you are leading the church, ministering to the congregation, helping them grow in God and fulfilling the vision that God has for that small congregation - you are, to all intents and purposes, a Pastor. It seems to me that this lady has stepped in to take on her husband's work, is finding that God has given her the gifts for it - God calls the peple he wants to be where he wants them, and alswyas gives the gifts needed for the task - but is maybe reluctant to publicly call herself a pastor becaue of the church's attitudes to this.

i understand why she said this, but at the same time i've seen some women apostles/bishops that were very anointed. but on the other hand, i know better than to judge by a person's gifts... the Bible says we'll know them by their FRUITS, not their gifts. and we must try the spirit by the Spirit to see if it's of God. so are these women in error? and if so, what about the people who are genuinely touched by their ministries?

Well precisely - just one reason why I cannot believe that God is against women pastors.

Paul had several female helpers (Rom 16:1-16; Philippians 4:2), in fact he says some of them were more than helpers, he calls them "co-workers". Junias (Rom 16:7) is even referred to as outstanding among the apostles, though there does seem to be some debate about whether this was a man or a woman. Scripture does not say that the "work for the Gospel" that these women did, involved preaching or leading meetings or services, but neither does it say that these women were working hard for the Gospel excluding preaching. It just notes that Paul had several female workers, whose help he found to be invaluable. It is also interesting that women were in the upper room with the disciples before Pentecost (Acts 1:14), and the early church met in their houses (Acts 12:12). Though I agree that this is not "proof" of female leadership.

The whole subject IS one for debate - and if you have the strength, there is a thread on the General Theology forum which has been going for a year and has over 4,000 replies (and we are still not in agreement.)

 

[hislegacy]

May I ask whose statement of faith that comes from?

 

[jazzypooh]

Preaching or pastoring a church is also a calling, but I do not think it is of the same nature. For one thing, marriage is, ideally, for life. But if God calls you to preach or be a pastor, it may be only for a season and then he may call you to do something else.

but what about the scripture that says that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance? i've always thought that if God has placed a calling on your life, it's a lifelong calling. i've never looked at it like that before.

I believe that God can call a woman to preach or pastor a church, but I still think that is a different role form being a wife. So, for me, it is not a matter of going outside your role, it is just obeying what God has called you to do.

i guess some people feel that if she's called to pastor and her husband isn't, that she'd be over him or 'usurping authority'. i see your point though. the home and the church are 2 different places. i've actually never seen or been in a church where the woman was called, but the husband wasn't. it seems that they usually share a 'joint' calling.

Well I'm not sure I understand that. If the Mission statement said, and the woman truly believed, that the only way she could minister to people and still be Scriptural was alongside her husband, then when he died, surely she should have stepped down, been asked to step down or stopped what she was doing? This would be living out what they said they believed and would be consistent. If she stepped up to take over her husband's work, and the church let her, then surely they are all going against their own mission statement? Wouldn't it have been better for them to wait on God to provide another married couple, or maybe a single man, to lead them, if that is how they believe it should be done?

i'm sorry. i should've made that clear. this isn't our church's statement of faith. i was looking at another ministry's website and came across it. sry for the confusion

No matter if you decide to call yourself "overseer" instead of "bishop" or "pastor"; that is just a title. If you are leading the church, ministering to the congregation, helping them grow in God and fulfilling the vision that God has for that small congregation - you are, to all intents and purposes, a Pastor. It seems to me that this lady has stepped in to take on her husband's work, is finding that God has given her the gifts for it - God calls the peple he wants to be where he wants them, and alswyas gives the gifts needed for the task - but is maybe reluctant to publicly call herself a pastor becaue of the church's attitudes to this.

i agree. they are all just titles. that's partly why i was hesitant about posting this thread AND because i did not want another endless debate... but actually, i think she really believes that that's not her calling. she's not really one to be 'swayed' by other people's opinions or attitudes. she may be fulfilling that role, but that doesn't seem to be her high calling.

The whole subject IS one for debate - and if you have the strength, there is a thread on the General Theology forum which has been going for a year and has over 4,000 replies (and we are still not in agreement.)

oh...... no..... thank you. i think i may have actually posted in that thread last year. but i've had my share of debates. all it does is vex your spirit (at least for me), and most people enter the debate with their minds already made up any way. personally, i believe it only causes more strife and more division.

Jesus said 'agree with thine adversary quickly.....' people love to have the last word and always be right about everything.... i'd rather let them think they've won the argument than to have my spirit vexed and lose my character in a senseless argument. but that's just my opinion of course...

Love,
~jazzy

 

[jazzypooh]

May I ask whose statement of faith that comes from?

i was surfing the internet, but if i remember i think it was hissheep.com or hissheep.org... one of the 2. it's not our church's statement of faith, and i should've made that clear in the OP. sry about that!

Love,
~jazzy

 

[Cassidy]

Just wondering what kind of position "Lydia" held in the church?

 

[jazzypooh]

Just wondering what kind of position "Lydia" held in the church?

Acts 16:13-15
13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptised, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

this passage says she was a seller of purple. so she had money and lots of it....

Acts 16:40
And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

whenever Scripture says 'the house of' someone when it's in reference to a man the assumption is that they're a pastor. for some reason it has a different meaning when in reference to a woman....

it doesn't say she was an apostle, but i would conclude that she had a church. but the scripture doesn't say whether or not she had a husband, so i guess it's one of those things you have to seek God about...

Chloe is another good example. i dont believe it says whether or not she had a husband either. usually, the man's name is mentioned first (esp. where nobility is concerned), but not in the case with these particular women. so either they weren't married or they were more 'respected' than their husbands? if that's the case, it would most likely be due to whatever position they held within the church...

thanks for contributing. i forgot all about Lydia

Love,
~jazzy

 

[zaksmummy]

I think it depends on you interpretation of "Pastor". A pastor is better defined as a shepherd of the flock - so although you pastors wife is rejecting the title as understood by the modern church, she is in fact pastoring (shepherding) the flock.

It is the added associating of preaching and teaching that the modern day pastors role has become that is the problem, not the original role itself.

 

[Strong in Him]

but what about the scripture that says that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance? i've always thought that if God has placed a calling on your life, it's a lifelong calling. i've never looked at it like that before.

Well gifts, certainly. I think if God gives you gifts then it's because he wants you to have and use them.
But I don't think calling will necessarily be to the same role, place, or be lifelong. I was thinking, as I wrote that, of a local man who was an anglican vicar until a couple of years ago, when he felt God was leading him to leave and go into teaching. Apparently he had felt at his ordination that he would only be in the church for a season. He is still a Rev, and always will be, so he could go back. But for the time being, his ministry is in the classroom rather than the pulpit.

Other people have felt called to be nurses, doctors, teachers, lawyers and then been called to be ordained.

i guess some people feel that if she's called to pastor and her husband isn't, that she'd be over him or 'usurping authority'. i see your point though. the home and the church are 2 different places. i've actually never seen or been in a church where the woman was called, but the husband wasn't. it seems that they usually share a 'joint' calling.

Yes I can see that, but I believe that God calls the people he wants and puts them where he wants them to be.
Also I think it depends on how some male clergy see their calling. I mean, our minister has always said that he and his wife are in ministry together. She's not ordained, she's a teacher; but there are times in the church where it may be right for her to talk to, and pray with, someone rather than him, and areas of church work that she has responsibility for because that's where her calling is. She would tell him what was going on - he's the Presbyter (Minister) and needs to know, but they are in ministry together.
I know of another anglican vicar who I went to stay with for a vocational week. He introduced himself and his wife to the group by saying "we've been in ministry for ..... years". A lot of people concluded that she was a deaconess, but she wasn't. All he meant was that he was the one who was ordained but that she ministered alongside him, and he was only as effective as he was because of her support and complementary gifts.
I am sure that this could happen just as well the other way around - actually, it does.

i'm sorry. i should've made that clear. this isn't our church's statement of faith. i was looking at another ministry's website and came across it. sry for the confusion

No problem. I wasn't getting at you, and I might have used the word "you" meaning "one" and led you to think that I meant you personally.

i agree. they are all just titles. that's partly why i was hesitant about posting this thread AND because i did not want another endless debate... but actually, i think she really believes that that's not her calling. she's not really one to be 'swayed' by other people's opinions or attitudes. she may be fulfilling that role, but that doesn't seem to be her high calling.

That's fine - we have to remain faithful to what God has called us to. I was just puzzled by the church mission statement that seemed not allow a woman to do a certain type of work, when she is infact being allowed to do that kind of work at the moment. Although, depending on the denomination, she is probably unable to preside at communion or take weddings, for example.

oh...... no..... thank you. i think i may have actually posted in that thread last year. but i've had my share of debates. all it does is vex your spirit (at least for me), and most people enter the debate with their minds already made up any way. personally, i believe it only causes more strife and more division.

Very sensible. There are times when it does vex my spirit and I wonder why I am wasting so much time on there, but then again, being challenged about my calling (I'm a preacher, not a pastor), means I get to write about that calling and remind myself of what God has said and done in my life. And being challenged on certain Scriptures causes me to search them more deeply. I've learnt a lot while that thread has been going, and it's only served to reinforce my calling and position. It is true that I went into it being sure of my position, but I hope that had I been challenged or rebuked by God while discussing his word, I would have had the courage to do something about it.

Jesus said 'agree with thine adversary quickly.....' people love to have the last word and always be right about everything.... i'd rather let them think they've won the argument than to have my spirit vexed and lose my character in a senseless argument. but that's just my opinion of course...

Yeah, you're stronger than I am. It depends what the argument's about. I went into another thread last year where the forummer was convinced that Tony Blair is the antichrist. I disagreed, but decided in the end that I didn't care what they thought about me, I wan't going to argue further.
I guess the question of my calling and possible disobedience to God is something I feel more passionate about.

 

[jazzypooh]

Very sensible. There are times when it does vex my spirit and I wonder why I am wasting so much time on there, but then again, being challenged about my calling (I'm a preacher, not a pastor), means I get to write about that calling and remind myself of what God has said and done in my life. And being challenged on certain Scriptures causes me to search them more deeply. I've learnt a lot while that thread has been going, and it's only served to reinforce my calling and position. It is true that I went into it being sure of my position, but I hope that had I been challenged or rebuked by God while discussing his word, I would have had the courage to do something about it.

Yeah, you're stronger than I am. It depends what the argument's about. I went into another thread last year where the forummer was convinced that Tony Blair is the antichrist. I disagreed, but decided in the end that I didn't care what they thought about me, I wan't going to argue further.
I guess the question of my calling and possible disobedience to God is something I feel more passionate about.

God has called me to the ministry too, and when He first called me I spent SOOOOOOO much time trying to prove it to other people and that God calls women..... really on the inside i was looking for validation from man, because i had been told by men since i was a child and before i realized i was called that 'God does not call women to preach....' i wanted flesh to confirm what i had received from the Spirit (which is NOT possible). so i spent so much time fighting people who were bound by tradition and would never change.....they were like the Pharisees! then i realized... Jesus never had to defend His right to preach so why am I? ... He just opened His mouth and declared the Word of God... the Father proved who He was in the Spirit and validated His ministry.... "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased...." it's the same way with us... He gives us that same confirmation when the Father stamps us with His approval by confirming our works through the power of His Spirit. so we dont have to seek approval from man or get them to agree with what God has called us to do. flesh cannot agree with the Spirit anyways... they are constantly opposing each other. and when i realized that, that's when i stopped trying to persuade flesh. religious people cannot discern spiritual things... when i realized that, that's when God truly freed me and gave me PEACE in this area... now i don't even waste time debating and arguing with people about it.... i moved on from that stage... the time i spend searching the Scriptures to convince them, i could use that time searching the Scriptures to better my relationship with God and get some work done for the kingdom! we don't have to prove to people who we are in the Spirit.... we just need to be who we are - who God has called us to be. if He's called you to preach, then just preach and let God prove your calling...

1 Timothy 4: 14-15
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself WHOLLY to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

Love,
~jazzy

 

[meerkat]

Taking these verses literally without putting them alongside the culteral and social climate of the day will never make sense. In those days, women were property and sold into marriage. There is much evidence to support that there were female disciples but that the (male) scribes chose to write them out of the scriptures.

 

[SharonL]

Taking these verses literally without putting them alongside the culteral and social climate of the day will never make sense. In those days, women were property and sold into marriage. There is much evidence to support that there were female disciples but that the (male) scribes chose to write them out of the scriptures.

Meekrat - this is a great answer - you should go to the 'New Christian" forum and post this - there is an OP there asking about women in the ministry and being put down pretty much by a pastor. Such a shame.

 

[jazzypooh]

well, i believe i've found scripture to support a woman walking in the office of an apostle:

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoner, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

i know in the KJV, Junias is translated as the male name Junia. but in the Greek, the name is female

thanks to everyone for your help! i appreciate it

Love,
~jazzy

 

[msbojingles]

Mission statements such as that indicate a misunderstanding of authority all around.

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoner, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

i know in the KJV, Junias is translated as the male name Junia. but in the Greek, the name is female

This is just one example. The bottom line is ~ if you come across anyone who is fixated on authority or "putting" people (male or female) "in their place" - RUN.

Mark 10:42-45 (AMP)

"But Jesus called them to [Him] and said to them, You know that those who are recognized as governing and are supposed to rule the Gentiles (the nations) lord it over them [ruling with absolute power, holding them in subjection], and their great men exercise authority and dominion over them. But this is not to be so among you; instead, whoever desires to be great among you must be your servant,
And whoever wishes to be most important and first in rank among you must be slave of all.
For even the Son of Man came not to have service rendered to Him, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for (instead of) many."

=======
In this passage (Romans 12:3-8), I've boldened a few phrases that have been translated with a gender (he). If you look up the greek, these phrases are not phrases with gender, but rather one single word with no gender.

So rather than stating a gender which may operate in these gifts, it's saying that if someone - anyone - has these gifts, then for pete's sake (whoever pete is ) let them use it! I'm tellin' ya, life would be a lot easier on everyone if we'd just stop telling each other how to use the gifts God gave us!

Romans 12:3-8 (NKJV)

"For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness."

 

[jazzypooh]

thank you msbojingles!