Women and the Creed: "For us humans and for our salvation"

gzt

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I ran across this great post about translation issues in the Creed which touches on some other things we've been discussing as well.

https://publicorthodoxy.org/2017/06/19/women-and-the-creed-for-us-humans-and-for-our-salvation/

There is a disturbing trend defining the Orthodox Church in the present moment, to which the politics of translation evident in the new version of the Creed is a symptom: there are Orthodox Christians who feel the need to be diametrically opposed to forms of thought that emerge outside of the Orthodox tradition, especially if these forms of thought challenge a particular understanding of Orthodoxy. Various feminist forms of thought challenge the role of women in the Orthodox Church, even raising the question of the theological justification of excluding women from ordination. Rather than listening, the response is normally to dismiss feminism as antithetical to Orthodoxy because of its so-called modern, secularist presuppositions.

...

However, self-identification vis-à-vis the proximate other was not always the way Christians defined themselves. It is often thought that Christians opposed themselves to the Roman Empire, when, in fact, they eventually became proud Romans, affirming all that was good in the empire—laws, culture—even while they exerted Christian criticism against the Roman Empire’s injustices. The Fathers of the Church rejected pagan religions, but they absorbed all that they thought was good and correct in pagan philosophy, Greco-Roman rhetoric, literature, art, hymnody, architecture, and ritual, to name only a few areas of ancient culture. Moreover, the logic of diametrical opposition is simply not theologically consistent with the logic of Incarnation in which God’s presence is discernible throughout creation, certainly beyond the boundaries of the Orthodox Church.

As Orthodox Christians, we have nothing to fear; and, since we have nothing to fear, we should be open to questions, challenges, and even insights from non-Orthodox forms of thought. At least some of those “modern” insights would not be so new, but would echo the wisdom of the Greeks and the intention of the Fathers as expressed in our Creed.

[\quote]
 

gzt

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It just worries me that we don't take a reasonable strategy of translating as gender neutral where the original is gender neutral and translating as gendered where the original is gendered (or where gender matters). It's utterly stupid (sorry for using that word) to double down on gendered language where the original is not gendered. Doing the strategy I mention above is not only completely defensible and conservative, it completely kills any momentum the people one might want to stop would have. Whereas the strategy of sticking with gendered readings no matter what only satisfies those who are married to old readings from nostalgia, hatred of women, and fear of the new.
 
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Lukaris

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According to the article you link, the phrases in the creed: "for us men and our salvation" & "was made man" are modern translations made in 2005 using allegedly outdated English. Yet, my Syrian grandparents had an American Orthodox pocket prayer book from 1944 that uses these precise phrases in the creed. While it seems variances in English usage in the "diaspora" Orthodox are a given, clearly other early American Orthodox Christians did use phrases like "for us men and for our salvation".


I referenced my info from: "Prayer Book for Eastern Orthodox Christians" compiled by the Reverend Peter H. Horton Bullard and Rev. Vasile Hategan under the imprimatur of Metropolitan Antony Bashir.
 
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FireDragon76

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Most mainline protestant churches just translate it... "for us and our salvation"... There is some stirring over translating the Creed so that Jesus "became truly human" rather than "became man", but I think its a bit of a tempest in a teapot.
 
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rusmeister

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I ran across this great post about translation issues in the Creed which touches on some other things we've been discussing as well.

https://publicorthodoxy.org/2017/06/19/women-and-the-creed-for-us-humans-and-for-our-salvation/

There is a disturbing trend defining the Orthodox Church in the present moment, to which the politics of translation evident in the new version of the Creed is a symptom: there are Orthodox Christians who feel the need to actively promote forms of thought that emerge outside of the Orthodox tradition, especially if these forms of thought challenge a particular understanding of Orthodoxy. Various feminist forms of thought challenge the role of women in the Orthodox Church, even raising the question of the theological justification of excluding women from ordination. Rather than acquiescing, the response is normally to dismiss feminism as antithetical to Orthodoxy because of its decidedly modern, secularist presuppositions.

...


It is often thought that Christians opposed themselves to the Roman Empire
No, not to "the Empire" as a general abstraction, but to authorities that commanded them to spurn Christ, worship and sacrifice to idols, etc. But they also opposed themselves to heresiarchs within the Church.

The heresiarch says:
As Orthodox Christians, we have nothing to fear; not even heresy, and, since we have nothing to fear, we should incorporate questions, challenges, and even insights from non-Orthodox forms of thought into Church teaching. At least some of those modern insights would not be so new, but would echo heresies of the past that nearly tore the Church apart and required Ecumenical Councils to put to rest - until moderns more enlightened than the fathers came to seek their resurrection once again.

It's ironic how the term "trad" has been introduced to disparage people who defend existing Tradition and practices, as if the practices were bad or in error. The worst thing I can imagine is the attitude that we know better than the fathers and should reinterpret Holy Tradition as we see fit in spite of them, what they asserted, defended, and sometimes died for.
 
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ikonographics

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Most mainline protestant churches just translate it... "for us and our salvation"... There is some stirring over translating the Creed so that Jesus "became truly human" rather than "became man", but I think its a bit of a tempest in a teapot.

For us who? For us whites? For us Russians? For us poker players?
 
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rusmeister

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It is modern feminism that has said that we cannot possibly mean "all people" when we say "man". The word "human" is younger, and our older, Germanic roots always understood the sense of "man" (mann) as representative of all people. They tell us that we cannot understand what we have understood for many centuries, and that that historical usage somehow "demeans" women. And so people, because their knowledge is most often parochial, limited to knowing only English and only modern American usage, seek to change the language, and some well know that not only the language, but practice (praxis) will be affected as well, and that the effects are ultimately theological. The more naive merely suppose that we will change the words to conform to this agenda-driven worldly usage; the more culpable really do seek to push women's ordination, treatment of same-sex desire as normative, etc, by use of this language.

And Ikonographics made a good point, too. "Us humans" willy-nilly carries the implication of "as opposed to some other form of being" (Martians? Pastafarians?). It is not a neutral change.

It is absolutely right to look on all suggestions to change things in Holy Tradition with suspicion. Some such changes resulted in the great schisms in Church history. Some changes (translating the Liturgy into a new language, for instance) will be accepted as normative, but changing the usage within one language is not, notably when the proposed change is not completely synonymous.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think this I will leave to the bishops. yes, words like this do have meaning, but as long as the understanding is Orthodox, and the intent is godly, and if it is done prayerfully, I personally would not take issue.
 
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archer75

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If people want this stuff, why not just go to the Episcopal Church, or ELCA, Orthodoxy shouldn't bend to radicals hiding in the laity, on the net, or hiding among the parish council.
I don't know that ECUSA has or should have a monopoly on making new and accurate in modern usage translations of the phrase δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους.

I personally think the use of "men" to mean "humans" is more than okay in traditional liturgical English. But I don't think it's necessarily only "radicals" who might wish to update this for clarity. I also prefer "Holy Ghost" in my private prayers. But "ghost" has been restricted in meaning to "what seems to be the spirit of a dead person appearing or acting on earth," so I wouldn't say that people who say "Holy Spirit" are "Latinizers" although ghost is a native English word and spirit is not.
 
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rusmeister

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I don't know that ECUSA has or should have a monopoly on making new and accurate in modern usage translations of the phrase δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους.

I personally think the use of "men" to mean "humans" is more than okay in traditional liturgical English. But I don't think it's necessarily only "radicals" who might wish to update this for clarity. I also prefer "Holy Ghost" in my private prayers. But "ghost" has been restricted in meaning to "what seems to be the spirit of a dead person appearing or acting on earth," so I wouldn't say that people who say "Holy Spirit" are "Latinizers" although ghost is a native English word and spirit is not.

This misses the concern expressed; that efforts to change a word now are both unnecessary and whose motivations are rooted in modern movements hostile to our Tradition and seeking to actually change it.

Is there any Orthodox person in this room who honestly does NOT understand the word "man", or who thinks it really refers only to males?
 
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I think using "humans" may help with some issues - I don't know if any of you are familiar at all with animal rights folks, but if you are, you might catch my drift.


I think fluency in English will help with this issue.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think using "humans" may help with some issues - I don't know if any of you are familiar at all with animal rights folks, but if you are, you might catch my drift.

just curious, but how would that help with animal rights folks, as opposed to saying "man?"
 
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gzt

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I think fluency in English will help with this issue.
English fluency also tells us that in current usage "man" is commonly seen as gendered and that other alternatives are preferred.

Somebody who doesn't look at the underlying decree of the council might think like this: the text is gendered, but having theology gendered in that way is obviously wrong (we agree so far). [aside: in case of the text for us and for our salvation we have the issue of what "us" is, so specifying human forestalls arguments against that text] If we broaden the text in that way, we might be able to interrogate the anthropocentric nature of the text, as, after all, we have theological considerations about the redemption of all of creation, etc. This is not a very good argument, to be sure, but using precise language that reflects the precise language of the Greek rather than having a romantic attachment to an archaic English translation that is ambiguous in some way or at the least stylistically bad in contemporary English.
 
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All4Christ

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"English fluency also tells us that in current usage "man" is commonly seen as gendered and that other alternatives are preferred."

Nope. Is English your first language?
Outside of the Church and classic literature, man is typically considered to be gendered. Mankind is the more common term for all of humanity.
 
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Lukaris

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I suppose we can next also
consider allegedly non inclusive language elsewhere. Check Matthew 5:9 in the Beatitudes; since I know the Lord tells us to love God and neighbor, I trust that He included daughters in this blessing. Is this another alleged translation issue or do I need to apologize for the Lord because He was not "inclusive" enough?
 
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