Woman Pastors

CaliforniaJosiah

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you want a different interpretation other than the clear, concise Word of God?.

I think you misunderstood.

I didn't ask ANYTHING in this thread. The opening poster did (and thus, THAT is what we are to be talking about).

I don't think it's too surprising, given the history of this forum (known to me, anyway, over the past 6 years or so), that the interpretation that will be presented is the "no women allowed" view since those that would have a different interpretation just aren't here anymore (or at least avoid this subforum and/or these type of questions).

Yes, obviously, there is a different interpretation, we all know that. Such can be found elsewhere. IF a reader desires to know other interpretations, MY advise to them was to search for that elsewhere. Is that unreasonable advise, in your view?

As you know, I already posted that I'm of the "men only" view. I think that perspective has been EXTREMELY well presented here. Good. I think other interpretations are nearly entirely missing here. Not surprising. Thus, my advise.


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah






.
 
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QuiltAngel

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It looks to me like the OP asked a question and a nice discussion followed. He comes from the viewpoint of women pastors and asks should they be allowed. I don't think he needs to look elsewhere for a different view. There are only two views, yes and no.

I wouldn't go on google to find out what Lutherans say about this issue. Studying the statements by the various Synods and comparing that to what the Bible teaches is all one needs to do.
 
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mdseverin

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For anyone that is curious, I asked the priest question in the Catholic forum. The answer why the RC does not allow priests to marry comes from 1 Corinthians 7:32-35:
I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
The short answer, derived from the above statement of St. Paul, is that unmarried men are better able to devote themselves solely to the work of their vocation. The article below has a lot of historical information regarding development of the tradition.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Celibacy of the Clergy
 
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DaRev

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Yes, obviously, there is a different interpretation, we all know that. Such can be found elsewhere. IF a reader desires to know other interpretations, MY advise to them was to search for that elsewhere. Is that unreasonable advise, in your view?

Yes it is unreasonable advice. Why would a confessing Lutheran advise someone to look outside of the clear concise word of God for an answer to a question that the Scriptures clearly gives?

I guess those with itching ears wish to scratch the ears of others.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Hermeneutics is the interpretation and application of a text.

One of the things we all experience CONSTANTLY here at CF is that while a group may be looking at the same text, the interpretation and application of it may differ. Sometimes radically.

Since TCL has - for some time - been entirely dominated by a fairly small minority of Lutheranism and for the most part, one perspective within (one that I agree with on this point), it's not TOO surprising (to ME anyway) that that's the interpretation and application that is herein conveyed. That others are largely "missing" here isn't too shocking. IF the original poster is interested in other perspective(s), it seems to ME reasonable for such to seek such elsewhere since it's missing here. That seems illogical to you?

If you went to a Democratic website and wanted to know what people think of Obama's economic policy - and all the responses were seemingly of the same view, it MIGHT not be unreasonable to direct them to different websites for different perspective?



.
 
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DaRev

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Hermeneutics is the interpretation and application of a text.

One of the things we all experience CONSTANTLY here at CF is that while a group may be looking at the same text, the interpretation and application of it may differ. Sometimes radically.

Since TCL has - for some time - been entirely dominated by a fairly small minority of Lutheranism and for the most part, one perspective within (one that I agree with on this point), it's not TOO surprising (to ME anyway) that that's the interpretation and application that is herein conveyed. That others are largely "missing" here isn't too shocking. IF the original poster is interested in other perspective(s), it seems to ME reasonable for such to seek such elsewhere since it's missing here. That seems illogical to you?

If you went to a Democratic website and wanted to know what people think of Obama's economic policy - and all the responses were seemingly of the same view, it MIGHT not be unreasonable to direct them to different websites for different perspective?



.

We're not talking about politics. We're talking about the clear word of God. There is only one true interpretation of Scripture. That's why, as Confessional Lutherans, we hold to the hermeneutic of Scripture interprets Scripture. All other "interpretations" include human reason, human tradition, secularism, and a whole host of of non-Biblical lenses through which God's clear word is distorted.

And yes, when someone asks a question, it is totally illogical to send them someplace where they are going to get a wrong answer. It's like if someone has a toothache and they're told to go see an auto mechanic. Totally illogical.
 
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mdseverin

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Ummmm, I'm the OP so I'm not sure if you guys are talking about me or not. I've gotten my answers on this topic awhile ago and am satisfied with the responses provided. I just brought up other questions in this thread because it related back to the same bible verse that was used to show the reason for male only clergy. There's no need to have the back and forth on my account if that is what's going on.
 
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lux et lex

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Well then certainly not a man with one husband.

Well, Lux, you're thinking that WE are reading it in the wrong light, but we aren't reading it in the light you think we are. As DaRev pointed out, the wording in that Titus scripture was to fight polygamy since marriage is for one man and one woman. It wasn't stating that a man had to have a wife in order to be an elder because it was directed toward the practice of polygamy. You're arguing the wrong thing in this case.

So if the Bible didn't actually mean a married man, just meant not a polygamist, perhaps this was just an example. I don't see why a homosexual in a committed relationship with one man would be disqualified, nor do I see why a single woman or married woman who is not a polygamist would be disqualified either.
 
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DaRev

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So if the Bible didn't actually mean a married man, just meant not a polygamist, perhaps this was just an example. I don't see why a homosexual in a committed relationship with one man would be disqualified, nor do I see why a single woman or married woman who is not a polygamist would be disqualified either.

Homosexuality is a sin described elsewhere in Scripture. One involved in such an abomination certainly is not qualified. "Must be above reproach."
Besides, the role and responsibility of the pastor is also taught in other places in Scripture, thus women are not called by God to that office.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Just thinking to myself again and was wondering: if the Bible says a pastor should be the husband of one wife, does that mean LCMS, WELS, and other confessional Lutherans only ordain married men?

Nope, it doesn't mean that. It simply means that a pastor, if married, should only be married to one woman.

Clearly someone is feeding you this stuff. I'm sorry, but the arguments you come with have been argued ad nauseum here almost word for word. It's like there's some "hey, let's attempt to trip up the confessional Lutherans!" site.

So if the Bible didn't actually mean a married man, just meant not a polygamist, perhaps this was just an example. I don't see why a homosexual in a committed relationship with one man would be disqualified, nor do I see why a single woman or married woman who is not a polygamist would be disqualified either.

Because "husband of one wife" is not clear enough?

Well, I guess not since I know several same sex couples that use the term husband and wife. :doh:

I'm not even sure why ELCA bothers sending their pastors to a seminary at this point. Seems the only qualifications to be one is whether you have a pulse or not.
 
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mdseverin

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Nope, it doesn't mean that. It simply means that a pastor, if married, should only be married to one woman.

Clearly someone is feeding you this stuff. I'm sorry, but the arguments you come with have been argued ad nauseum here almost word for word. It's like there's some "hey, let's attempt to trip up the confessional Lutherans!"

Ok, let's stop with the conspiracy theories. No one is "feeding" me questions. I wasn't even arguing anything, I just asked a question. Plus, if you look at my last post, #107, I clearly state that my questions have been answered. Let's read the whole conversation before jumping to conclusions. Didn't the two of us just have this talk about assuming things?
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Ok, let's stop with the conspiracy theories. No one is "feeding" me questions. I wasn't even arguing anything, I just asked a question. Plus, if you look at my last post, #107, I clearly state that my questions have been answered. Let's read the whole conversation before jumping to conclusions. Didn't the two of us just have this talk about assuming things?

Oh I'm not assuming things. There's no conspiracy theory, either. When more than one person comes here and says almost the same thing word for word, it's a bit obvious that someone's drinking the kool-aid. You're certainly not the first person to come in here with these "questions" and you won't be the last person.
 
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AngelusSax

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Because "husband of one wife" is not clear enough?

In fairness, the words "must be" that precede that might be the trip-up. That's the danger of only quoting part of a verse and assigning clear meaning. Sometimes the whole verse is necessary, and if one reads "must be" as literal as "the husband of one wife" is read (literal enough to forbid homosexual and female clergy), then the words "must be", being literal, would then almost have to be read literal enough to mean that the man must be married to one wife before he is allowed to be a pastor.
Granted, you and I know that isn't what was meant, but a literal, plain meaning of "must be" precludes us from interpreting those words away.
 
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DaRev

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In fairness, the words "must be" that precede that might be the trip-up. That's the danger of only quoting part of a verse and assigning clear meaning. Sometimes the whole verse is necessary, and if one reads "must be" as literal as "the husband of one wife" is read (literal enough to forbid homosexual and female clergy), then the words "must be", being literal, would then almost have to be read literal enough to mean that the man must be married to one wife before he is allowed to be a pastor.
Granted, you and I know that isn't what was meant, but a literal, plain meaning of "must be" precludes us from interpreting those words away.

:doh:
Don't forget the other places in Scripture where the qualifications and responsibilities of the pastoral office are found, which clearly teach that women are not called by God to that office, and also the other places in Scripture that forbid homosexual behavior. Even if the "husband of one wife" were a requirement as some here are trying to assume (we all know what happens when we "ass-u-me"), it still in no way allows for women or homosexual clergy, as both are contrary to God's word anyway.
 
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Bryne

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Oh I'm not assuming things. There's no conspiracy theory, either. When more than one person comes here and says almost the same thing word for word, it's a bit obvious that someone's drinking the kool-aid. You're certainly not the first person to come in here with these "questions" and you won't be the last person.

The reason different people ask the same questions is because they are reasonable questions...not because they are in league with each other, and no one is drinking from the kool-aid. (btw, it was Flavor-aid that was used, not Kool-aid...poor maligned Kool-aid)

There are churches that do believe that a pastor must be married and will not ordain single men. It is not an unheard of interpretation of that verse.
 
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U

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I don't think it's too surprising, given the history of this forum (known to me, anyway, over the past 6 years or so), that the interpretation that will be presented is the "no women allowed" view since those that would have a different interpretation just aren't here anymore (or at least avoid this subforum and/or these type of questions).
.

I don't post a lot in the Lutheran forums, but I did want to make a few observations about the seeming inability for their to be both a LCMS/WELS and an ELCA presence in these forums. For transparency sake, I do want to confirm I am a conservative WELS Lutheran.

First, I would submit that the WELS/conservanive LCMS and ELCA should have their seperate forums (yes, I know about the sub forums, but I mean entirely seperate). I think the difference in how the two denominations view so many Biblical doctrines and the confessions is increasingly apparent. For an analogy, imagine if, during the initial years of seperation between Catholicism and Lutheranism, instead of the name "Lutheran" sticking, the denomination kept it's primary moniker as Catholicism just because Luther was a Catholic and was heavily influenced by Catholicism. Keeping the name Catholic would have just led to confusion, and would have - to the lay person - indicated a closeness of theology that wasn't there at all. So too, I think it is with WELS (and some LCMS) and ELCA.

We're just so far apart that discussion, while not useless, is not very productive. I think, so much of the frustration from the conservative members on a board like this stems from the idea that because we have a common name, our theology should be similar. I know I always argue more vehemently with those who come from a similar theological background as me. That's because they're largely making decisions from the same information as me and therefore - in my opinion - they should be making the same decisions as me. When I'm discussing theology with someone who has a completely different background, I think I'm more likely to be understanding and gracious. That's because we're coming from a whole different set of presumptions, and so I'm more likely to be patient with them rather than claiming "this is so obvious you dunce!" When a, for instance, Eastern Orthodox member asks questions of a WELS member, we're probably pretty likely to be patient and discerning. When an ELCA member does, we're much more likely to think "how can you not be seeing it our way!" because they call themselves Lutheran, just like us. But that really isn't the case. I don't see ELCA members being as much like WELS at all. We just come see the Bible with a whole different set of presumptions.

I'm also curious that when I look for Lutheran thought over the internet, it's more likely to be WELS and LCMS than it is ELCA even though ELCA is much bigger (partially that's my bias, as I do look for more conservative blogs/forums/websites). I wonder if that's because once a denomination becomes theologically liberal, they start to lack the ability to call something the absolute truth and instead their are just shades of truth. And once a denomination no longer claims confidently that "yes you can find the truth here", theology becomes a whole lot less important. You can find vigorous debate over Holy Communion between two conservatives because they believe that 1) the truth can be known through the scriptures and 2) that truth has a crucial impact on their own life and the life of others. I'm not sure that this line of thinking is as prevelent among liberals. And to me that's a bit scary. Once you go down the wishy washy line of thinking that doesn't believe you can find the absolute truth, or that theology doesn't really matter, then the most important belief of all - that of Jesus as Savior of the world - can also be placed into question.
 
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lux et lex

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Nope, it doesn't mean that. It simply means that a pastor, if married, should only be married to one woman.

Then why doesn't it say "Should be the husband of one wife or an unmarried man". Seems like a cover up for our single or divorced WELS/LCMS pastors...


I'm not even sure why ELCA bothers sending their pastors to a seminary at this point. Seems the only qualifications to be one is whether you have a pulse or not.

That is just childish.
 
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DaRev

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Then why doesn't it say "Should be the husband of one wife or an unmarried man". Seems like a cover up for our single or divorced WELS/LCMS pastors...

Because the latter was a given, being that St. Paul was unmarried and Christ called him to be an apostle. It's most likely that St. Timothy was also unmarried. That supports the context that the passage in question refers to polygamy and is not a ban on single pastors. It's along the same lines as the doctrine of the Trinity or infant baptism. Neither are specifically mentioned by name in the Scriptures, but both are clearly taught in several places.
 
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