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Woman marry her rapist

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by grace24, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    Today, it is no longer morally right to let your daughter’s marry her rapist. The Bible seem to be OK with it.

    De 22:28 In case a man finds a girl, a virgin who has not been engaged, and he actually seizes her and lies down with her, and they have been found out, 29 the man who lay down with her must also give the girl’s father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife due to the fact that he humiliated her. He will not be allowed to divorce her all his days.

    Some argue that this is consensual sex, but when one read the passage it says "to seize her and lies down with her". This meaning is same as rape. Rape is not consensual. How should we understand this passage?

    I'm posting these questions because these are some of the most challenging verses in the bible that atheist always object to. As time go by hopefully I understand the bible better.
     
  2. abysmul

    abysmul Board Game Hobbyist

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    You are out of context, go back a few verses and read it all in context. There is indeed rape in that chapter, but not where you are pointing to.
     
  3. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    The earlier passage gives different situation. The first passage gives proof of the girl's virginity, he shall not divorce her for giving her a bad name. However, it if was true that she is not a virgin, then she shall be stone to death.

    The second passage deals with consensual sex. They both must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 22:22)

    The third scenario happen under the situation where the woman did not scream. This indicates that she agree to have sex with the guy. She is to put to death. The guy also because he has committed adultery.(Deuteronomy 22:24)

    The fourth scenario occur out in a far place. She screamed for help but there was nobody to hear her. Only the guy must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 22:27)

    The argument is in Deuteronomy 22:28-29.

    The passage reads the rapist is to marry her for he has violate her. This doesn't seem to be consensual sex, but raped. He must pay the father 50 silvers then marry her. So what is there to be confused of?
     
  4. abysmul

    abysmul Board Game Hobbyist

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    The woman is forced in 25, not in 28. The scripture seams pretty clear on the matter.
     
  5. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    There is rape here.

    Due 25:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

    She is force here.

    Due 25:29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

    I don't know how you could read the text and said it's not a rape and force. 25 states that the rapist must die for raping her because she has screamed. In 28, is that consensual sex or not? Well it clearly says rape. Is rape consensual? NO.
     
  6. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    Ok thanks. I will read up on that. The problem I don't like about the NIV is that it's been translated to where it is more acceptable to the general population. No wonder this allow the skeptics and atheist attacking the bible. More like liberals. I'd rather stick with the KJV. It's safter.
     
  7. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dear grace24.
    This is great question and the verse you presented indeed is describing rape.
    Also, please understand that the context of the times must also be taken into account.
    These were tribes from about 3000 years ago.
    So try to think with your tribal eyeglasses on. :)

    1. It is a father who gives daughter away. (They still do this today in India and Pakistan).
    2. Women who married at the time seldom married due to guy's good looks. :) Does he own cattle? Field? Does he have a trade? Or, is he hardworking? (Usually the father of the bride considering these things).

    At that time women were much wiser and practical. They wanted family of their own and independence from their parents.
    The Community meant A LOT more than we coul imagine.
    The good looks of a man meant very little. :) :liturgy:

    There were also 2 very important distinctions that the Israelites had from their pagan neighbors.

    1. The Law of God.
    2. Specific moral laws (such as virginity as compared to promiscuity)

    If any of the points is compromised, the Community would suffer.

    Let's look at the surrounding verses.

    DT 22:13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, `I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
    DT 22:20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.


    The message here is that the moral reputation is very important.
    Why is it important?
    Because that is what differentiated the Israelites from the pagans.

    DT 22:22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
    Self-explanatory ...

    DT 22:23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death--the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

    Self-explanatory ...

    DT 22:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

    Death penalty for rape. She was screaming, but there was no one to rescue her. Also, she was already someone's fiancee.

    DT 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


    No death penalty for rape.
    What is going on? :)

    In v.28 the rapist is the local man. He is a part of the Community.
    He raped a virgin and they are discovered.
    This means that now everyone recognizes him.

    The reputation of the now ex-virgin is destroyed.
    She has no place to go.
    Being married and having family is the only way of life in a Community.

    So, he must marry her.

    Why not kill him?
    Then who would marry her?

    They killed the first guy because he raped someone's fiancee.
    Her original fiancee can still marry her because the other guy is killed.

    Would this rapist (now her husband) abuse her? Nope. The Community would have his neck.
    Can he divorce her? Nope. (Divorce is almost like a scarlet letter for the woman. Who would support her?)
    And what about her mental state?
    We do not really understand the tribal mentality.
    There are also examples in today's world when a guy (whom the girl knows for years) forced himself on her and then she expected him to marry her.

    The local guy who rapes the local virgin, both of them know each other quiet well. They both were born in the same Community, from the same tribe.

    YET, because of THIS specific LAW there were practically NO RAPES by the locals.

    The rapes became common later on when the Community became weak and corrupt and refused to enforce the Law.

    Does this help?

    Thanks, :)
    In Christ,
    Ed
     
  8. Godel

    Godel Guest

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    That's one of the keys to some of the "problems" skeptics like to raise.. they look at the English with no regard to the original Hebrew/Greek. So, it's often a good place to start looking - does the Hebrew/Greek text actually *say* what the skeptic is claiming?
     
  9. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    Edial, that would be unfair for the woman as it violates her rights. That was the point of the whole argument. It's wrong.

    Atheist objection: God is just wrong here for allowing this.

    Atheist response: So anybody can rape a girl and marry her?
     
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  11. seeingeyes

    seeingeyes Newbie

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    Don't gloss too quickly over the word 'virgin' here. In a nation where tribal status and property pass through paternal lines, and Maury Povich isn't around handing out paternity tests, virginity was quite the commodity.

    Also important to note is that the onus of 'and never divorcing her' is put upon the rapist, and not the father of the virgin or the virgin herself. Exodus 22:16 says: “If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins." So it makes sense that the father (and presumably the daughter through him) would have some say in the matter.

    Ancient Israel was certainly a 'man's world', but men also had certain responsibilities that had to be met. A wife had the right to 'relations', food, and clothing. "If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." (Exodus 21:11)

    Also consider:
    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”(Matt 19)


    Marriage without the possibility of parole may be considered a fate worse than death. ;)
     
  12. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But then you need to explain to the atheists that at the time women had very, very few rights.
    We all know that. It's the fact of life.

    Be the Law is "changed" or "amended" for women to have more rights ... the way Christ did in the NT, the mental state of men and women of the times must be changed.
    Look at the Beatitutes (sp) ... blessed are the poor in spirit.
    Encouraging, right?
    Whoever heard of a concept that the poor in spirit is blessed?
    So the minds start changing and hope is born in the hearts of women who are oppressed.
    And most of them were oppressed at the time.

    And the LAW was written to maintain a society that is godless by nature and almost totally void of love.

    I cannot give a you a better answer except that the Law was written to keep people from going insane from sin.

    Present to the atheist a picture - a tribe. Community.
    Present a mental state of people at the time.
    Tell them to avoid falling in a trap of trying to put yourself in "their" shoes.
    You can't. You don't think the way people thought 3000 years ago.

    Most of the folks at the time would not think twice taking someone else's life.
    Remember one of the good guys whose daughter was raped and died during the ordeal? So what did he do?
    In order to stir up the other tribes to go to war he chopped up his daughter's body and sent each tribe leader a part.
    They got stirred up from anger and went to war after that.

    Chop up your own daughter's body???
    Incredible! I would never be able to do it!
    But they did. And the guy who chopped it up was one of the good guys.

    1. Show the atheists the moral and mental state of the people at the time.
    I am not saying it is easy, but apologetics was never easy.

    2. Then show that this was written to lawbreakers to keep them from going insane from sin.
    The symptom of such a type of insanity is when one sins in the most atrocious way and his conscience no longer bothers him.

    3. And finally show the atheist that Christ came to give freedom to the oppressed.

    The Old Testament is tough as nail and dry as dust.

    What I am saying is that we need to face the reality of the times ...
    RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

    There is time for everything.

    Thanks, :)
    In Christ,
    Ed
     
  13. Edial

    Edial Well-Known Member Supporter

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    :eek::help::swoon:
     
  14. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

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    I'd agree consent is implied. They had to be found out.

    "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
    then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

    The penalty for premarital sex was pay the dowry and lifelong obligation.
     
  15. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    Not seduce. I'm talking about rape, as in Deut 22.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  16. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    I read your link and one of the point I get out of it was the Exodus passage "seduces". Seduce is not rape, they are two very different meaning. Until the word rape is change to seduce in Deut 22 it would be hard to convince others.

    I didn't really understand the Hebrew text. Is there a word for rape in the Hebrew? My NIV says rapes. Maybe somebody can clarify this.
     
  17. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    bump
     
  18. grace24

    grace24 Active Member

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    bump
     
  19. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    The Jews were slaves of the Egyptians. The Egyptians could take whatever they'd like to, incluidng their lives. They rampently killed the Jews' children simple because the Jews were over-populated. It's not surprised that they could rape the Jews.

    If the rapist is an Egyptian, they can do nothing. If the rapist is a Jew, they can do nothing either. They don't have the right to punish their masters' properties. So the best bet is that they will hide their daughters from any men. If this measure failed, they will have to establish a negotiation between the 2 families to settle it down, including that demanding the rapist to take a life time responsibility.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012