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WoF, Theology, and Apologetics

Discussion in 'Word of Faith' started by Simon the Tanner, Mar 20, 2015.

  1. Simon the Tanner

    Simon the Tanner Aspiring Apologist / Theoretical Theologian

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    I'm new here and I'm still learning my way around. I found a thread in a different section talking about theology and apologetics but it apparently got too intense and was locked. Would it be okay to start a similar thread here?
     
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  2. hhodgson

    hhodgson Semper-fi Supporter

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    Actually it should be already in motion. Check this thread out from one of our own. You want to get to know Victoryword (Troy). He currently has an archived apologetics (The Wayback Machine) that you may be interested in here...

    Victory Through The Word Ministries

    Also check this earlier thread by victoryword in which he has considered a new updated apologetics web site here...

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7714707/#post62142785

    He is very busy and we hope he can free up some time to redo his work. I would expect that you will enjoy his work...
     
  3. Alive_Again

    Alive_Again Resident Alien

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    Apologetics being what and why we believe, and in a WOF congregation, you'd think it would be hard to go wrong. You would enjoy the "protection" of WOF adherents and not those who freely criticize WOF beliefs.

    If someone came to you with concerns about WOF doctrine, you'd want to have a good resource available to draw from.

    Sometimes other people's threads are too long (I'm not knocking them) and folks would have to wade through a lot of screens to address an aspect of (i.e. WOF) they want to know about.

    Personally, I think it's a mistake to include controversial doctrines that draw a lot of heat and link them with WOF. They're points of offense that keep people from looking further. The whole thing about Jesus burning in Hell and needing to be reborn (was Jesus temporarily a child of the devil?) are HUGE stumbling blocks. It's not WOF. It has nothing to do with walking as an overcomer or receiving by faith. I realize that certain ministers have espoused these things, but what do you have to gain by promulgating it?

    IMO, it's better not to foster arguments.

    I think if you took a poll in the Spirit filled section and asked them what doctrines they disagree with the most about WOF, you'd find much of it would involve their "take" on what is being said. If they had a balanced presentation of the offending points (assuming their is one), then you'd potentially "win" someone to what we believe God has been endeavoring to teach the church about walking in the Spirit and reigning in life.

    From what I've read form "guests" who diss WOF doctrine, most of what they object to, I would also object to, if I saw it through the glasses they are wearing. The thing is, that's not it at all. The balance is usually something they can kind of get on board with.

    But for people to be able to receive, they need to let go of some judgments they have made about it and become teachable again. There's some exciting times ahead for the church, and it's going to involve folks stepping out in faith and moving like Jesus did. To do that, some preparation needs to take place (in everyone).

    You can take for granted that a lot of religious people are going to be on hand to shoot those believers down.
    Wouldn't it be a drag when it all ended to find out that you were a Pharisee? That you knocked or criticized the move of the Spirit? Isn't it time to get rid of those judgments that have bound Heaven from moving for you?

    It's very obvious God wants to raise up an army that is always filled; that can make decrees that mobilize the angels. A people who are true worshippers; a people that are ready to enter into the land of the giants and move from the manna to their inheritance; to bring in the harvest. A people who really know their God. Of course I'm talking to us all. Surely that's the goal of every believer. I don't want to be left out.

    I hope all of the things that make for division, especially among "Spirit filled" and WOF folks can be swept away and a real understanding can be mutually shared.

    One last point. I have really learned in the last year, that if you receive bad seed from "believers" who make judgments to slight persons and ministries, that you'll be more apt to believe them. You'll pick up a defilement that will influence your judgment. Blinders will go up and you won't want to hear otherwise.

    We're supposed to take heed how we hear.
     
  4. Alive_Again

    Alive_Again Resident Alien

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    Interesting website. I enjoyed a lot of what I read. There are a few areas though that I'd like to comment on.

    "Jesus was rich" / (Jesus wasn't rich)

    When we hear certain words we (everyone) has a certain imagery that is associated with those words.
    In American culture, "rich" means living in a well-to-do place with style and embellishments that say, "I have money!" I'm a success! It has associated a certain worldliness that says, "Look out world. Have you got yours? I've got mine!" My rewards are in this world. The lust of the eyes and the pride of life in full swing. In this respect, Jesus was not ever (worldly) rich.

    There are many believers who have successful businesses with nice homes (or ministeries), with new and nice cars, that give out the wazzoo to the church and to others as they encounter them in this world.
    God blessed their businesses or they inherited things that God wants godly people to leave to their children and grandchildren, It's a form of financial "success" for want of a better word -- how about blessing? that doesn't have all of the junk we normally associate the word "rich" with.

    "Actually the Bible says quite the opposite. II Cor. 8:9 says that Jesus was made poor that we might be rich."

    Jesus was in no way hoarding finance or glamming His way through life, making the poor jealous. Jesus was a major league giver! He didn't give to become rich. He gave because He had the heart of the Father. He owned EVERYTHING. He grew up in a blessed household with His mother as a fruitful vine. His father was a successful carpenter. That which He put His hand to, was blessed. Jesus was no doubt the example of what blessed was! Under the Law, when you please God from the heart, God will bless you majorly. Do you think it was any different for His family? That would be religious thinking.

    So when people say "Jesus wasn't rich", what they really mean, is "Jesus wasn't covetous and possess all of the negative qualities we asssociate the worldly wealthy". Amen! But Jesus was richly blessed on this earth, as was His family. He was born in the manger, but as we read, He received gold and a wonderful education. I am quite sure He lacked for nothing.

    He did leave a place where every blade of grass was green and tree perfectly shaped. Mansions are the norm in Heaven and not one "shack". They say gems are the paving stones in Heaven and He had every servant anyone would ever want.

    If His family was blessed according to the Law, then why would Jesus be poor in His walk on the earth? That would seem to defy God's Word, wouldn't it?


    BUT, if He became poor when He came down here, then both things (God's Word) are true.

    People do tend to accuse WOF people with desiring their own worldly kingdom down here and that is in no way true. Heaven forbid! So if we agree on that, then we're no longer afraid to say that Jesus and His family prospered greatly according to the Law.

    " It just means that He had a budget to buy necessities (mostly food) for his ministry. Even small businesses require funds to operate, even if they’re not making substantial profits."

    I suppose that would be "humble" to assume He only had "necessities"? I very much like the picture of New Covenant prosperity I have heard from Gary Carpenter. It's about hearing the voice of God and obeying. It opens wide the doors of blessing; not because you earned it by sowing, but because from the knowledge that your inheritance covers EVERYTHING (just like Jesus), you are thus free to give likewise. Jesus had no lack of faith that God would provide. He could go on long preaching meetings and never take thought for meeting His or His crowds needs. He borrowed Peter's boat (I thought Peter permanently left it all?), but God blessed him in a way that he couldn't contain the fish.

    As far as Jesus having a house on earth, I believe that Jesus stayed with His parents (at least until He was 30), since He was not married (the reason for leaving your father and mother in the old days). I know when He went forth, He partook of the "apostolic poverty" as the old medieval church liked to call it. Talk about a small box! He could go anywhere and people would be knocking Him over with offers to stay (if they thought He might bless them in that way). Meals provided. Need clothing? No problem! The "poverty" was that He didn't have to be concerned about it. As He taught, what He left for the gospel (as God requires), He gained 100 fold in return.

    (He didn't give a house to get a 100 houses. He just laid down what He had (as God needed it), and like the loaves and fishes, partook of the abundance of living without limits.) Keep in mind, they walked for days WITHOUT FOOD, so God's schedule doesn't have to line up with our idea of provision.

    As Gary Carpenter would say, God wants to raise up people who will hear and obey without question. He will give these believers supernatural abundance for the spread of the gospel. While it may not cost anything to spread the Word, if you want to utilize many media sources, it takes BIG MONEY. I dare say that if believers were already giving like this, many more people would be saved than their are now.
    .
    I believe that Jesus took in a record amount of money (outside of the physical temple). He dispersed it freely for those who needed it. He took no thought for His own needs (an attribute of only the rich). I don't believe Jesus EVER truly lacked for anything. From our thinking, He may have "lacked" a room to stay in for His mother to give birth, but God determines our actual needs, and this separates what Godly riches are from worldly riches.

    If "riches" are "enough" for what is needed for yourself and others, then Jesus certainly had it. He was an example of those who hear God and obey (both in the Old and the New).


    To summarize, "rich" isn't what is commonly associated as being. Jesus wasn't like that. We're not to be like that. But it there IS a godly richness that is destined for all believers in this world. It's your Father's inheritance for those who are ready for it. Eyes on the ball to be sure. It is NOT what the world associates it to be, but it IS what God says it is (look at Proverbs). It's a balanced attribute of godliness in its rightful perspective (I'm trying to depict it correctly, but God's image to you is all that you need (with persecutions).
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  5. Alive_Again

    Alive_Again Resident Alien

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    Another comment from the material on the website (which I actually like).

    (God is too holy to even look at iniquity. God the Father turned His back on the Son, cursing Him to the pit of hell while He hung on the cross. Here was the Son’s “descent into hell.” Here the fury of God raged against Him. His scream was the scream of the damned. For us.
    R. C. Sproul. )


    The Word does give the singular name of a place where the dead (before Jesus' post-death liberation) went. It had a "good" and a "bad place". Jesus was not "cursed" to go there. Jesus went there as a victor. He preached one of the greatest messages every said and we'll hear it one day. Before (I would assume) He did that, He took the keys and did a number on the enemy.

    You see, the enemy actually thought that he won at the cross! When Jesus died, he thought that He had Him for all time. Does that sound right to you?


    Jesus' "descent into Hell where the fury of God raged" (really!) wasn't that at all. He went and spoiled the principalities and the powers. He took the keys to Hell, death, and the grave. What part of God's rage against His Son was that? Jesus never uttered the "scream of the damned". The damned suffer a punishment that will never be revoked. Why would Jesus suffer for those who were judged and in the bad part of Hell? A great part of that is the hopelessness that they'll never get out. Jesus could never experience that.

    What Jesus uttered from the cross (in addition to prophesying to the thief about going to "Paradise") was "It is finished!" And so it was.


    I personally believe it is better not to bring up the subject at all, than to argue that it was not enough on the cross. SO MANY take strong issue with this, that you're asking for trouble for saying it. People hear that as why they won't hear any more about "WOF". It's really not WOF, but some who are WOF at least at one time believed it. It has nothing to do with faith or overcoming.
     
  6. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Teacher of the Word

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    AA, I'd like to ask your opinion on something.

    When Jesus uttered "It is finished!" on the cross He was speaking of His mission to the people of the earth. He had at that point brought the Gospel message to us. But was this the entire salvation process?

    Did Jesus go into hell and do battle? Was He beaten and dragged about? No, He wasn't. I agree with you that He went there to proclaim victory.

    But the salvation process was not over. Consider:

    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is useless; you are still in your sins. 18 Furthermore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished.
    1 Cor 15:17-18 (NET)

    Until the resurrection your faith is useless, you are still in your sins. Until the resurrection, Jesus did not become sin and you are not imputed righteousness. If the resurrection does not happen, we are all lost. So the cross was not the finish of our salvation. Without the resurrection there is no salvation. Without the cross there is no salvation either. Atonement is the whole process from the sacrifice on the altar through the path through the uninhabitable place and completing with the resurrection.

    Comments?
     
  7. Alive_Again

    Alive_Again Resident Alien

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    Hey there, cowboy! (Ha) - I didn't know you had a "western" bent.

    Of course the resurrection was necessary to the full salvation picture. We could say that Jesus going to the Father to intercede on behalf of believers who believe is equally as vital (as was implied when He spoke to Mary not to hold Him yet).

    When Jesus said, "It is finished", the penalty in Blood required by the Father was paid for. All of those things that the Word says about the Blood and the cross indicate that this was the cost; the required payment for redemption. Jesus had the ability to take the keys and do what victors do. People equate the "show of them openly" to doing what some conquerors have done, parading the king naked in a cage, open to the people. It was all good as far as He was concerned.

    I suppose in general, taking one passage of scripture, in itself, does not depict the whole picture. That's like saying "Jesus is Lord" and not doing what He says. If we believe, we must love.

    On the "imputed righteousness", I like to think that the "only believe" (and follow -- and all that this means) put even those "in between" covenants in a place akin to "imputed righteousness", even though the Blood sacrifice had not yet taken place. For example, Lazarus at some point took his reconciliation with God from Jesus instead of the temple system; he died and went to Paradise as a believer in the flock of the Lord.
     
  8. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Teacher of the Word

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    As I sat to answer this -- yes, as I typed the first letter -- I didn't know the reference. Then I saw my avatar. Good one. It made a different bit of sense since I'm from Arizona. Western cowboy -- except I'm pretty solidly a city boy. Good one.

    And this is the root of my question. We are to take the whole council of scripture for a subject. If what you say here is the whole -- all that the Father required was paid by the blood -- then we are saved completely at the cross and the resurrection is not necessary for our salvation.

    But this is NOT what scripture clearly and plainly says. It tells us that if Jesus is not raised then you are not saved.

    So while the Blood is so very important in our being washed clean, 1 Cor 15:17 tells us it wasn't, alone, what saves us.

    Thoughts on this specifically?
     
  9. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Teacher of the Word

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    Hi Simon,

    I actually do tend toward Jesus being rich. I don't like those who take it lightly as they teach it, talking of Armani suits (Avanzini). But if one studies scripture about kings (or their assigns) visiting kings the treasures that they bring to offer tribute is incredible. I believe the wise men delivered such treasure to Jesus (when He was two, not at the manger). I believe that this point in scripture carries more weight than simply to uphold the kingship of Jesus.

    And although some joke/take lightly the truth that Jesus had a treasurer, scripture sees fit to point this out. They were never left to want. And even the coin from the fish has been shown to have been done because Jesus nor His disciples truly owed the tax that was requested that they pay -- it was a foreigners tax, but the collectors were crooked and demanded what was not owed.

    Just a thought.
     
  10. hhodgson

    hhodgson Semper-fi Supporter

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    I like that Simon... "The real issue is my faith" ...that is overcoming the world.

    1 John 5:3-5
    "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


    Word-of-Faith[1].gif
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
  11. Simon the Tanner

    Simon the Tanner Aspiring Apologist / Theoretical Theologian

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    There's no question that Jesus had all of his needs met, and that none of his followers lacked for anything. They weren't poor in that sense, but to say that Jesus had a treasurer is a bit of a stretch IMO. It's like saying that a small business man is rich because he has twelve employees, a payroll, an expense account, and a bank account. It strains credulity.
     
  12. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Teacher of the Word

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    Well, what is a treasurer? An elected official? Or just one who watches over the money?

    5 "Why wasn't this oil sold for three hundred silver coins and the money given to the poor?" 6 (Now Judas said this not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money box, he used to steal what was put into it.)
    John 12:5-6 (NET)

    Keeper of the money box. You can supply your own name. In most circles it would be acceptable to call such a one the treasurer.

    This, in and of itself, does not lend itself to saying anyone was rich. And ultimately, we won't prove it one way or the other using the money box. But what we can take away from this is that they weren't poor. They weren't counting their last pennies. How can we know this?

    As keeper of the money box, he used to steal what was put into it.)
    John 12:6 (NET)

    He stole from it. And John, nor any other apostle, tells us that anyone knew about it. Judas was able to steal from the community money box and not be noticed. If they have only a day's, a week's or a month's worth of money, this would eventually be noticed. Judas would have been caught.

    Again, this doesn't mean great wealth by itself. But this group was by no means poor. And whose in this group? A fisherman? A tax collector? Some farmers? Not much wealth there. But we also have an itinerant rabbi, once carpenter, who received a kings reward when He was two. So, if we were to ask, if they did have money where did it come from? We have a very credible source as to where it came from.
     
  13. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Exactly Christ himself committed no sin,but he paid for ours.

    If he had committed sin then he would not have been the perfect sacarfice.

    He reconciled with the Father before he died:

    Luke: 23. 46. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    This statement was for the Father finishing the work by the resurrection,if he had not been redeemed he would have stayed in Hell.

    Jesus also preached in Hell to those of the days before Noah.

    Hard to do being tormented.

    Personally I detest this teaching of Christ being tormented in Hell,and there is no scriptural basis for it.
     
  14. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Amen, he had a treasurer because he had a ministry and 12 Apostles and 2 women helpers following him and working.

    Try to organize 5000 people to sit down and listen!

    That's a pretty big camp meeting,and when you think of all that were brought to him for healing ,they just did not mob around him.

    If you made Peter mad he would cut your ear off and Jesus would heal that too.:)
     
  15. hhodgson

    hhodgson Semper-fi Supporter

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    .
    There are some that believes that God can do anything He wants... which means He can also change His mind on anything including what... He already created. He can pull the plug right now if He wants.

    But..!

    Thank God He is faithful to His Word and His Love for us. And with that in mind, after... the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus Christ... who stood before the Father and presented the sacrificial blood offering of "Himself" on the mercy seat to be accepted as payment for the sins of the world. Question!

    What if the Father had said... NO?

    Aren't we thankful that God isn't angry at us, nor was He in a bad mood that day? Out of His Love for us, He gave His Son to be the sacrificial lamb, and through this... His Amazing Grace entered the world. Just something to think about... busy[1].gif

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    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
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