Woe, Woe, Woe

[Douggg]

I'm not sure what you're asking or what point you're trying to make. Jesus spoke those words because he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Revelation 12 tells us that there was war in heaven at that time.

No it was not due to a war in heaven, that Jesus spoke those words in gospels.

 

[LastSeven]

Here he is [Revelation 8:10-11; 9:1] .... this falling is what the Lord refers to in Luke 10:18

Are you trying to tell me that Jesus saw the future yet spoke about it in the past tense?

 

[LastSeven]

No it was not due to a war in heaven, that Jesus spoke those words in gospels.

Elaborate please.

 

[Straightshot]

"Are you trying to tell me that Jesus saw the future yet spoke about it in the past tense?"


The Lord knows the end from the beginning of all things son .... He also knows the past and knew it before it happened

He created the His universe in the beginning, has given His written word, and holds the future of which He already knows is going to happen .... nothing is done without His providence

You should know these things .... but you speak as if you do not

Until you do, you simply will not be able to render His prophetic word with competence

Something is missing from your religious appeal .... the organization that you follow left the road centuries ago and you should think about what you have been taught

 

[iamlamad]

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong. The theories proposed on this thread will therefore be proven wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

Are you trying to tell me that Jesus saw the future yet spoke about it in the past tense?

Ha ha! I am quite sure that is what he is trying to say.

 

[iamlamad]

No it was not due to a war in heaven, that Jesus spoke those words in gospels.

You cannot pull verses out of context and hope to know the intent of the author! What was happening when Jesus spoke those words?

"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come."

First it was Jesus casting out devils, destroying years of work Satan had accomplished. Then it was the 12 doing the same works! No, it is 70! Let's read between the lines. Demonic spirits report back to Satan that now 70 people are casting out demons in the name of Jesus! Jesus was a headache for him, the twelve, a huge headache, but now 70 people destroying his kingdom? He had to come and check this out for himself! Jesus saw him coming!

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.


18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

This particular war in heaven between Michael and his angels and the devil and his angels has not yet come to pass but will take place at the beginning of the coming tribulation period, and specifically with regard for Israel

Revelation 12 is all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan

The break in the visions, past and future, is found between 12:5 and 12:6

The past in the first century, and the future when a remnant of Israel will have to flee for protection from Satan who will be cast out of heaven and to the earth [Zechariah 14:4:5; Matthew 24:15-16]

Satan will peruse and attempt to destroy the believing remnant and also those still residing in the nations [Revelation 12:12-17]

Revelation 12:6-17 is a view of the future still to be fulfilled .... no record of the past satisfies these things that will befall Israel during the coming tribulation .... same as the time of the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble to come [Jeremiah 30]

The prophets who see these future and unfulfilled things regarding Israel must be added together in order to get the completed rendering

Satan's fall to the earth in this case is coming .... he still has access to heaven as we speak

Here he is [Revelation 8:10-11; 9:1] .... this falling is what the Lord refers to in Luke 10:18

Satan is subject to His power and the gates of hell will not prevail against it .... when Satan is cast to the earth at the time of the end and bared from access to heaven he will rage for a short time [Revelation 12:12]

Then he will be cast into the abyss for 1000 years [Revelation 20:1-3]

He will be released again to deceive the mortal nations of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom, and then he will be destroyed in the Lord's lake of fire [Revelation 20:10]

Wrong! See my comment on the other post. Satan will be cast down immediately following the 7th trumpet sound. It is at that time that the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. Why then? Adam's 6000 year lease, the very lease that Satan usurped, will END. Suddenly the only hold Satan had to earth has run out, expired. He suddenly finds himself with NO LEGAL RECOURSE, and the kingdoms are taken away from him and given to Jesus Christ. He is therefore cast down.

 

[iamlamad]

I'm not sure what you're asking or what point you're trying to make. Jesus spoke those words because he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Revelation 12 tells us that there was war in heaven at that time.

No, the war in Rev. 12 is FUTURE and will take place at the midpoint of the week. Michael has been waiting a long time for that 7th trumpet. Finally, when it sounds, he will not have to show any respect to Satan. He will take Him down!

 

[iamlamad]

When Jesus spoke those words, was it because there was a war in heaven?

Yes, I am "concluding", I would not say assumption because assumptions are made to buid conclusions, that the 1260 days are the same, and are the first half of the seven years. I conclude the same thing with the 42 months of the gentiles controlling the out court as the same 42 months that the beast rules. And conclude that the time, times, half times in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 are all basically the second half of the seven years.

You are on to something here. The truth is, all five of these mentions of time, 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years all will run pretty much concurrently during the last half of the 70th week. So OF COURSE the twp witnesses will be testifying their 1260 days while those in Judea will be fleeing, and while the city will be trampled for 42 months.

There is only ONE last half of the week, and all these events will take place during that last half. Anyone that puts one or more of these 5 events into the first half are thinking MYTH.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't disagree that Daniel 11 is about Antiochus. I'm saying Daniel 8 is also about Antiochus andDaniel 7 is about the four kingdoms (Assyria, Persia, Greece and Rome). None of these prophecies are future.


Antiochus IV is only see here [Daniel 11:21-35]

And the rest of your idea of all past fulfillment is one of preterism

When you go off on this road you and I will have no agreement

I will disagree in one point. Yes, the Beasts of chapter 7 seem to be of kingdoms past. And they may well be - but they are also kingdoms (and kings) of the future!

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Notice that these kings are all living together at ONE TIME! And it is close to the time that the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus Christ....so this is speaking of the 70th week. The BEAST - the very same Beast of Rev. 13 is caught and slain, as we see in Rev. 19:20. I find it interesting that the other kings are allowed to live for perhaps a year and a month.

 

[iamlamad]

"So what was the empire in control of Israel at the time of Jesus when the 69th week was completed at Jesus's death on the cross?"


And so which one after, and the next, and the next .... not all Rome

I am telling you that Rome and the subsequent rulers of the Middle East in the breach of silence between the 69th and the 70th weeks .... not seen by the prophets

And this is why your EU centered revived Roman Empire idea is a pipe dream

I tend to agree. I am convinced it will be all the Muslim nations that surround Israel, and perhaps the "Stan" nations.

 

[Straightshot]

"Wrong! See my comment on the other post. Satan will be cast down immediately following the 7th trumpet sound."


The 7th trumpet does not began to sound until toward the ending of the tribulation [Revelation 10:7

Satan and his fallen ones will be cast to the earth long before .... at the beginning [Revelation 6:13; 8:10; 9:1]

Both Satan and his beast from the abyss will be on the earth long before the 7th trumpet begins to sound .... these will be mustering their forces, gaining a following of worshipers, and positioning themselves to destroy the "great city" of western domination, attack, invade, and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount at the middle of the tribulation, and then rule for the second 1260 days [42 months] of the 70th week decreed for Israel [Revelation 9:11; 11:2; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 17:8-18

The 7th trumpet will blow toward the end of the beast's 42 month rule heralding his own destruction at the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 10:1-3; 15:1-8; 16:1-17; 19:11-21]

There is no scripture that puts Satan's casting following the 7th trumpet .... he will be on the earth with his fallen ones long before .... and he will bring his beast in the human little horn at the beginning

 

[iamlamad]

Take a look at Revelation 11. The two witnessed are killed at the end of their 1260 days, right? followed by their ascent and the earthquake. followed by the 7th trumpet.. So basically the 7th sounds at the end of the 1260 days (so we can compare to Revelation 12)

Now look at Revelation 12:6, the woman is in the wilderness for 1260 days, (for believing the Antichrist is her messiah)
then in text of 12:7 is the war in heaven, Satan and his angels cast down - the woe.

Revelation 12 just doesn't have the 7th trumpet sounding in the text, following verse 12:6. But allow me to show it, where I think it fits.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (1260 days)

The seventh trumpet sounds.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Doug, you are missing something here - something VITAL to understanding chapter 11 chronology.

Picture the last half of the 70th week in your mind. During these 1260 days or 42 months, 5 different events will be playing out:
1. The city will be trampled for 42 months, starting probably 3 1/2 days before the midpoint
2. The two witnesses will testify for 1260 days, while the city is being trampled.
3. Those living in Judea will flee, while the city is being trampled and the 2 witnesses are testifying.
4. Those who fled will be fed for 3 1/2 years - while the above three events are playing out.
5. The Beast will be given 42 months, the very same 42 months of trampling, (with a little offset at the start) while the two witnesses are testifying and while those who fled are fleeing and being protected.

in other words, all these run parallel, but they don't all start on the same exact day.

11:4 - 13 or so are written as a parenthesis and are not a part of the chronology. John takes us down the last half of the week here as a SIDE journey and parenthesis. Chronology is as follows.

3 1/2 days before the abomination the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem. (He MUST be in Jerusalem to enter into the temple). He comes with (probably) Muslim armies who will trample the city for 42 months.
Because He showed up then, the two witnesses show up, probably within seconds of his arrival. They begin their testifying while the city begins to be trampled.

3 1/2 days later, the man of sin enters the temple, enters the Holy of Holies and declares that he is God. The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark the time of abomination for those in heaven. Michael goes after Satan at the same time those in Judea begin to flee. (So 12:6 is perhaps 1 second after the 7th trumpet.)

As the last half of the week plays out, the Beast tries and tries to kill the two prophets, but they are supernaturally protected. Finally, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that will end the week, they are finished testifying and the Beast kills them. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and suddenly rise up at the 7th vial. The great earthquake in chapter 11 is the very same earthquake at the 7th vial. It is caused by God raising up the Old Testament saints. Many were dead before the flood, and their atoms are spread far and wide. It will cause a HUGE earthquake as God pulls their bodies back together.

You can believe this or not. It is TRUTH whether or not you believe it.

So basically the 7th sounds at the end of the 1260 days No, the 7th trumpet sounds just 3 1/2 days after the city begins being trampled and the two witnesses begin testifying

Now look at Revelation 12:6, the woman is in the wilderness for 1260 days, (for believing the Antichrist is her messiah) NO! What did Jesus say?
"
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"
12:6 is showing this fleeing. They have just seen the man of sin enter the temple (as per Paul in 2 thes.) and declare he is their God. They RUN. They FLEE. John sees this and writes it.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (1260 days)

The seventh trumpet sounds. NOOOO! You have it backwards! The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. In other words, the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week.

 

[Straightshot]

"I will disagree in one point. Yes, the Beasts of chapter 7 seem to be of kingdoms past. And they may well be - but they are also kingdoms (and kings) of the future!"

Here is why

5 of the beast's kingdoms have fallen, all Middle Eastern kingdoms one after the other

And today all of them have lost their kingdoms and are divided

It is the beast who will bring them together again into his Middle Eastern kingdom at the time of the end .... at first the smaller 6th, then expanded into the 7th .... his final

All of the past Middle Eastern Kingdoms are of the same populations that have always been there, just different human political rulers

Today .... the same people, but without a Middle Eastern kingdom .... their past dominions were taken away

Satan's beast in the little horn will bring them together again and into his kingdom

The populations described are all primarily Muslim today .... and this is the religious banner that they will follow in the beast's confederation

 

[Straightshot]

Post # 54 connects the dots with the correct parallels of the second 1260 days [42 months] of the tribulation

 

[iamlamad]

"Wrong! See my comment on the other post. Satan will be cast down immediately following the 7th trumpet sound."


The 7th trumpet does not began to sound until toward the ending of the tribulation [Revelation 10:7

You might imagine this, but you are mistaken. 12:6 is showing us those in Judea fleeing because they have just seen the abomination!

Satan and his fallen ones will be cast to the earth long before .... at the beginning [Revelation 6:13; 8:10; 9:1]

WRONG! It is the 7th trumpet that marks the end of the reign of Satan as god of this present world. You still apparently don't know this, but the 7th trumpet is what divides the week into two halves, sounding in heaven at the very moment the man of sin enters the temple.

Both Satan and his beast from the abyss will be on the earth long before the 7th trumpet begins to sound .... these will be mustering their forces, gaining a following of worshipers, and positioning themselves to destroy the "great city" of western domination, attack, invade, and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount at the middle of the tribulation, and then rule for the second 1260 days [42 months] of the 70th week decreed for Israel [Revelation 9:11; 11:2; 11:7; 12:12; 13:1-4; 17:8-18

Yes, the BEAST will be doing his thing as we see in chapter 13. I suspect the Dragon will use the beast to go after those who fled in 12:6. But it will not be until after the 7th trumpet that divides the week before the Kingdoms of the world are transferred and then Satan is cast down. It is EXACTLY in the order John wrote it, by you have to see the parenthesis in 11:4 - 11:13. In fact, much of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis also.

The 7th trumpet will blow toward the end of the beast's 42 month rule heralding his own destruction at the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 10:1-3; 15:1-8; 16:1-17; 19:11-21]

You are mistaken. When God first began to speak to be about Revelation the very first thing He was was that I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." I asked Him how to find that and He said, "every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year periods of time." This would include 1260 days, 42 months AND time, times and half of time. So the exact midpoint MUST BE in chapters 11 - 13 where we find the five mentions of the last half of the week. And it IS. I found the marker for the exact midpoint. It is marked by a 7. Jesus also said, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" When He said that, I suddenly knew how: God would use the same marker for the start and end of the week.

The truth then is this: the 7th seal marks the start of the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 70th vial marks the end. Plain and simple. If you can't believe this now, at least put it on the back burner! It is truth and it will be proven soon, because these things will happen.

There is no scripture that puts Satan's casting following the 7th trumpet .... he will be on the earth with his fallen ones long before .... and he will bring his beast in the human little horn at the beginning

Of course there is! It is Rev. 12! In black and white. And immediately following the 7th trumpet. Of course the Beast will be given his authority at the same time also. It is my guess that Satan is cast down and immediately possesses the Beast.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Please explain where in the Bible you get authority to take the 70th week and separate it from the other 69 weeks.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

For those who care here is a little bit of History.

A Counter-Reformation

In 1545, the Catholic Church convened one of its most famous councils in history, which took place north of Rome in a city called Trent. The Council of Trent actually continued for three sessions, ending in 1563. One of the main purposes of this Council was for Catholics to plan a counterattack against Martin Luther and the Protestants. Thus the Council of Trent became a center for Rome’s Counter-Reformation. Up to this point, Rome’s main method of attack had been largely frontal—the open burning of Bibles and of heretics. Yet this warfare only confirmed in the minds of Protestants the conviction that Papal Rome was indeed the Beast which would “make war with the saints” (Revelation 13:7). Therefore a new tactic was needed, something less obvious. This is where the Jesuits come in.

On August 15, 1534, Ignatius Loyola founded a secretive Catholic order called the Society of Jesus, also known as the Jesuits. The Jesuits definitely have a dark history of intrigue and sedition, that’s why they were expelled from Portugal (1759), France (1764), Spain (1767), Naples (1767), and Russia (1820). “Jesuit priests have been known throughout history as the most wicked political arm of the Roman Catholic Church. Edmond Paris, in his scholarly work, The Secret History of the Jesuits, reveals and documents much of this information.”4 At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church gave the Jesuits the specific assignment of destroying Protestantism and bringing people back to the Mother Church. This was to be done not only through the Inquisition and through torture, but also through theology.

The Jesuit Commission
At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible’s Antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain, basically said, “Here am I, send me.” Like Martin Luther, Francisco Ribera also read by candlelight the prophecies about the Antichrist, the little horn, that man of sin, and the Beast. But because of his dedication and allegiance to the Pope, he came to conclusions vastly different from those of the Protestants. “Why, these prophecies don’t apply to the Catholic Church at all!” Ribera said. Then to whom do they apply? Ribera proclaimed, “To only one sinister man who will rise up at the end of time!” “Fantastic!” was the reply from Rome, and this viewpoint was quickly adopted as the official Roman Catholic position on the Antichrist.

“In 1590, Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem.”5 “Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God—asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God.”6 “The result of his work [Ribera’s] was a twisting and maligning of prophetic truth.”7

Following close behind Francisco Ribera was another brilliant Jesuit scholar, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) of Rome. Between 1581 and 1593, Cardinal Bellarmine published his “Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time.” In these lectures, he agreed with Ribera. “The futurist teachings of Ribera were further popularized by an Italian cardinal and the most renowned of all Jesuit controversialists. His writings claimed that Paul, Daniel, and John had nothing whatsoever to say about the Papal power. The futurists’ school won general acceptance among Catholics. They were taught that Antichrist was a single individual who would not rule until the very end of time.”8 Through the work of these two tricky Jesuit scholars, we might say that a brand new baby was born into the world. Protestant historians have given this baby a name—Jesuit Futurism. In fact, Francisco Ribera has been called the Father of Futurism......

http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/Jesuits.html

So are you following the Bible or a Roman Catholic teaching based on your stated belief of Prophecy?
You all need to verify where some of your beliefs come from.

 

[Psalm3704]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Please explain where in the Bible you get authority to take the 70th week and separate it from the other 69 weeks.

Hi OHC,

Do you think all these prophecies was fulfilled in the first century immediately following the 69th week?

1) to finish the transgression,
2) to make an end of sins,
3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6) to anoint the most Holy.

This is what those prophecies mean in plain english.

Daniel 9:24 (NIRV) "The LORD has appointed 70 'weeks' for your people and your holy city. During that time, acts against God's law will be stopped. Sin will come to an end. And the evil things people do will be paid for. Then everyone will always do what is right. Everything that has been made known in visions and prophecies will come true. And the Most Holy Room in the temple will be anointed.

Daniel 9:24 (WEB) Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

Daniel 9:24 (GNT) "Seven times seventy years is the length of time God has set for freeing your people and your holy city from sin and evil. Sin will be forgiven and eternal justice established, so that the vision and the prophecy will come true, and the holy Temple will be rededicated.​

.