Woe, Woe, Woe

[LastSeven]

Antiochus is in Daniel 11, yes, but the little horn in Daniel 8 is also Antiochus.
Daniel 8 starts with a ram with two horns. This is Medo Persia. Then a prominent horn (verse 5) came up and this was Alexander the great (he is the one who conquered Egypt). In his place four prominent horns grew up (verse 8) and these are his four generals. Out of one of them came another horn, which is Antiochus Epiphanes. The entire chapter talks only about two kingdoms, primarily Greece.

The ten kings you're talking about are from another vision, described in Daniel 7. This is a much broader vision touching on all four kingdoms, of which Medo-Persia and Greece are two. Rome is the fourth.

 

[Straightshot]

All the same little horn [Daniel 7; 8; 11:36-45] at the time of the end out of the northern divide of Alexander's Asian holdings still pending

Rome is not defined in the visions as two rival kingdoms, one north and one south of Israel just before the first century .... or at the end of this present age

Rome does not fit your idea and did not start out as two rivals, one north and one south of Israel .... the ancient Roman Empire is not in the scope of the visions of any prophet

The two bronze thighs of the image in Daniel 2 were the Seleucid north and the Ptolemaic south just before the first century

The little horn will arise in the north [iron leg] and conquer the southern kingdom [iron leg] at the time of the end still pending [Daniel 11:40-42]

Study on

 

[LastSeven]

I just re-read Daniel 7 and I don't see anything in there about two rivals, north and south of Israel. I think you're getting confused.

 

[Douggg]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to make a fuss about what the three woes really are, because I really don't think it's important, but I just want to make the point that Satan being cast down to earth happened already 2000 years ago. So if that's the third woe, then the first two woes would've happened even earlier than that. Technically possible, I suppose, however, given that the first two woes are tied to trumpets five and six, it would make a lot more sense for the third woe to be tied to trumpet number seven, and we know for a fact that Satan being cast down to earth is not tied to trumpet number seven because trumpet number seven ushers in the judgment and the new earth which we know for a fact to be still future.

Take a look at Revelation 11. The two witnessed are killed at the end of their 1260 days, right? followed by their ascent and the earthquake. followed by the 7th trumpet.. So basically the 7th sounds at the end of the 1260 days (so we can compare to Revelation 12)

Now look at Revelation 12:6, the woman is in the wilderness for 1260 days, (for believing the Antichrist is her messiah)
then in text of 12:7 is the war in heaven, Satan and his angels cast down - the woe.

Revelation 12 just doesn't have the 7th trumpet sounding in the text, following verse 12:6. But allow me to show it, where I think it fits.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (1260 days)

The seventh trumpet sounds.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 

[Douggg]

The two bronze thighs of the image in Daniel 2 were the Seleucid north and the Ptolemaic south just before the first century

It is the greek empire, not two (of the four) breakup kingdoms.

Nonetheless, let's look at your theory, the Seleucid's and Ptolemey's kingdoms ended when? 63BC. So what is the empire of the legs of iron, beginning in 63 BC, there abouts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_Empire

 

[Straightshot]

"I just re-read Daniel 7 and I don't see anything in there about two rivals, north and south of Israel. I think you're getting confused."


You are the one who is confused .... [Daniel 11:40; 42] .... the little horn is the king of the north .... he will conquer the king of the south

Antiochus IV is seen here [Daniel 11:21-35] .... no where else in any prophet's vision .... the historical record verifies the fulfillment 100%

Daniel 7; 8; and 11:36-45 are all of the little horn's actions at the time of the end still pending as we speak .... this one is also seen here [Micah 5:5-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Study on

 

[Straightshot]

"Nonetheless, let's look at your theory, the Seleucid's and Prolomey's kingdoms ended when? 63BC. So what is the empire of the legs of iron, beginning in 63 BC, there abouts?"


One more time for you Doug

The iron legs are still separate as were the bronze thighs .... one north and one south of Israel at the time of the end .... the ancient Roman empire is not recorded in the scope of the vision .... was not north and south of Israel, and did not rival itself

If you cannot understand this ..... it is your problem

Rome and subsequent rulers of the Middle East are not a part of any prophet's vision to this very day .... all of the visions fulfilled before the Lord's first advent ended at the cross .... the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel

All of the remaining prophecies to be fulfilled are still pending and to be fulfilled during the 70th .... the coming tribulation

 

[Douggg]

"I just re-read Daniel 7 and I don't see anything in there about two rivals, north and south of Israel. I think you're getting confused."


You are the one who is confused .... [Daniel 11:40; 42] .... the little horn is the king of the north .... he will conquer the king of the south

Antiochus IV is seen here [Daniel 11:21-35] .... no where else in any prophet's vision .... the historical record verifies the fulfillment 100%

Daniel 7; 8; and 11:36-45 are all of the little horn's actions at the time of the end still pending as we speak .... this one is also seen here [Micah 5:5-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Study on

You know that the Ptolemy's were greeks don't you ?

 

[Douggg]

"Nonetheless, let's look at your theory, the Seleucid's and Prolomey's kingdoms ended when? 63BC. So what is the empire of the legs of iron, beginning in 63 BC, there abouts?"


One more time for you Doug

The iron legs are still separate as were the bronze thighs .... one north and one south of Israel at the time of the end .... the ancient Roman empire is not recorded in the scope of the vision .... was not north and south of Israel, and did not rival itself

If you cannot understand this ..... it is your problem

Rome and subsequent rulers of the Middle East are not a part of any prophet's vision to this very day .... all of the visions fulfilled before the Lord's first advent ended at the cross .... the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel

All of the remaining prophecies to be fulfilled are still pending and to be fulfilled during the 70th .... the coming tribulation

The feet of iron and clay are time of the end. The legs of just iron followed the greek empire - or in your alternate theory
the Seleucid's and Ptolemy's.

So what was the empire in control of Israel at the time of Jesus when the 69th week was completed at Jesus's death on the cross?

 

[LastSeven]

Take a look at Revelation 11. The two witnessed are killed at the end of their 1260 days, right? followed by their ascent and the earthquake. followed by the 7th trumpet.. So basically the 7th sounds at the end of the 1260 days (so we can compare to Revelation 12)

Now look at Revelation 12:6, the woman is in the wilderness for 1260 days, (for believing the Antichrist is her messiah)
then in text of 12:7 is the war in heaven, Satan and his angels cast down - the woe.

Revelation 12 just doesn't have the 7th trumpet sounding in the text, following verse 12:6. But allow me to show it, where I think it fits.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (1260 days)

The seventh trumpet sounds.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

You're assuming that the 1260 days in Rev 11 corresponds to the 1260 days in Rev 12. That's an assumption. Not the worst assumption I've ever seen, but an assumption nonetheless.

Regardless, the fact that Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven 2,000 years ago trumps your assumption. You just can't get around that. Satan did fall to earth 2,000 years ago, so how can it be part of the seventh trumpet, which we know is still future?

 

[Straightshot]

Wrong again Doug .... the populations of the Middle East at the time were indigenous just as they are today .... not Greeks

Alexander never ruled after he conquered .... he died

The divides of his holding were of the north and the south related to Israel included the visions
[Daniel 11:1-35]

 

[LastSeven]

"I just re-read Daniel 7 and I don't see anything in there about two rivals, north and south of Israel. I think you're getting confused."


You are the one who is confused .... [Daniel 11:40; 42] .... the little horn is the king of the north .... he will conquer the king of the south

Antiochus IV is seen here [Daniel 11:21-35] .... no where else in any prophet's vision .... the historical record verifies the fulfillment 100%

Daniel 7; 8; and 11:36-45 are all of the little horn's actions at the time of the end still pending as we speak .... this one is also seen here [Micah 5:5-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12]

Study on

I don't disagree that Daniel 11 is about Antiochus. I'm saying Daniel 8 is also about Antiochus and Daniel 7 is about the four kingdoms (Assyria, Persia, Greece and Rome). None of these prophecies are future.

 

[Straightshot]

"So what was the empire in control of Israel at the time of Jesus when the 69th week was completed at Jesus's death on the cross?"


And so which one after, and the next, and the next .... not all Rome

I am telling you that Rome and the subsequent rulers of the Middle East in the breach of silence between the 69th and the 70th weeks .... not seen by the prophets

And this is why your EU centered revived Roman Empire idea is a pipe dream

 

[Straightshot]

I don't disagree that Daniel 11 is about Antiochus. I'm saying Daniel 8 is also about Antiochus andDaniel 7 is about the four kingdoms (Assyria, Persia, Greece and Rome). None of these prophecies are future.


Antiochus IV is only see here [Daniel 11:21-35]

And the rest of your idea of all past fulfillment is one of preterism

When you go off on this road you and I will have no agreement

 

[Douggg]

You're assuming that the 1260 days in Rev 11 corresponds to the 1260 days in Rev 12. That's an assumption. Not the worst assumption I've ever seen, but an assumption nonetheless.

Regardless, the fact that Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven 2,000 years ago trumps your assumption. You just can't get around that. Satan did fall to earth 2,000 years ago, so how can it be part of the seventh trumpet, which we know is still future?

When Jesus spoke those words, was it because there was a war in heaven?

Yes, I am "concluding", I would not say assumption because assumptions are made to buid conclusions, that the 1260 days are the same, and are the first half of the seven years. I conclude the same thing with the 42 months of the gentiles controlling the out court as the same 42 months that the beast rules. And conclude that the time, times, half times in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 are all basically the second half of the seven years.

 

[Douggg]

I am telling you that Rome and the subsequent rulers of the Middle East in the breach of silence between the 69th and the 70th weeks .... not seen by the prophets

So you are admitting the legs of Iron that followed the kingdom of bronze is the Roman Empire, at the time of the end of the 69th week.

What the intermediate kingdoms are between the 69th and 70th week, like the ottoman empire and anything to do with Islam is irrelevant.

In the end times, the 70th week, the iron mixed with clay. Some parts of it weak, other parts strong.

And this is why your EU centered revived Roman Empire idea is a pipe dream

The EU is the kingdom unlike any before it, a kingdom of strong countries and weak countries. Rome being part of it. A continuation of the leg of iron.

 

[Douggg]

Wrong again Doug .... the populations of the Middle East at the time were indigenous just as they are today .... not Greeks

Alexander never ruled after he conquered .... he died

The divides of his holding were of the north and the south related to Israel included the visions
[Daniel 11:1-35]

from wikipedia....the Ptolemy's were a greek family. They were not egyptians. They ruled egypt for a while, but they were not indigenous egyptians. The king of the south in Daniel 11 was actually a greek. So you think in the end times a greek is going to once again rule egypt?

The Ptolemaic dynasty /ˌtɒləˈmeɪ.ᵻk/ (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖοι, Ptolemaioi), sometimes also known as the Lagids /ˈlædʒᵻdz/ or Lagidae /ˈlædʒᵻˌdiː/ (Ancient Greek: Λαγίδαι, Lagidai, after Lagus, Ptolemy I's father), was a Macedonian Greek[1][2][3][4][5] royal family which ruled the Ptolemaic Kingdom in Egypt during the Hellenistic period.

 

[Straightshot]

The prophets talk of regions like the land of Israel, the land of Magog,the land of Egypt, the political north, and south, but the kingdoms are the populations living there .... Middle Eastern peoples were never Greeks and are still the same today Egyptians, Turks, Israelites, Arabs, Syrians, Iraqs, Iranians

The Greek followers after Alexander's holdings fell apart were not loyal to Athens, but became ingrown among the populations of Middle Eastern culture which was never Greek in the first place, and the same are not Greek or Roman today .... far from it

... no more than the returned remnant of Israel is European

The prophets see the indigenous divides of the region, the religious persuasions, and particularly with regard to Israel in their midst

And the same is true for the time of the end of this present age when the focus is all upon Israel and the nation's surrounding antagonists .... nothing has changed .... Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Turks, Syrians, Iranians, etc.

This setting is in view today on the ground .... and it is the little horn of Daniel's visions who will arise among them and lead them to conquer western culture and Israel .... then the Lord will cut him short and destroy his confederation at the battle of Armageddon

These regional populations are primarily the adherents of Islam today .... they worship Allah the pagan crescent moon "god" of the ancient Babylonians and Assyrians

All has come full circle at the Lord's drawing and He is about to raise the curtain for His drama of the last 2550 days of this present age

He has a controversy with those who worship the pagan "god" of the Muslims and at the root of this controversy is the divide between Issac/Jacob/ Israel .... and Ishmael/Esau/Edom

The setting is in the Middle East past and future and He will have His way

http://www.askelm.com/people/peo016.htm

The above article verifies the visions of the book of Daniel with regard to the location where the little horn, a Middle Eastern king of the north will appear at the end of this present age

Alexander'’s kingdom was broken and there were two rival kingdoms, one north and one south of Israel, represented on the image as the two thighs of bronze extending from the bronze belly of Alexander’s kingdom [Daniel 2:31-33]

Further details are recorded giving this same historical setting ending with the rule of Antiochus IV inDaniel 11:21-35; this vision then jumps directly to the time of the end of this present age beginning in 11:36-45 and extends to 12:1-7

The little horn is the king of the north at the time of the end in 11:36-45 and the “he” in 12:7; there is also a king of the south [Daniel 11:40] just as there was during the presence of ancient Syrio Babylonia

These two future kings and their kingdoms are represented as the two iron legs of the image, one north and one south of Israel [Daniel 2:31-33]

The little horn of the northern kingdom will defeat the king of the south and then proceed to confederate all of the Middle East [Daniel 11:40; 7:7-25]; this setting is described as the 4th beast kingdom and the feet and toes of the image [Daniel 2:40-43] .... the little horn is represented as the iron in both the northern leg and the feet and toes .... his northern kingdom will be smaller at first, and then he will expand it into the terrible beast, his divided kingdom of iron and clay with 10 other horns [kings]

Understanding that the Syrio/Babylonian populations were primarily of Middle Eastern stock and not western Greek is very significant; this is the same setting today regarding the Islamic block of several Middle Eastern states; neither is the ancient Roman Empire included in the scope of the visions or any of the other subsequent rulers of the Middle East during the past 2000 years .... Daniel's visions for the time of the end are focused upon the same Middle East of ancient Syrio/Babylonia

The visions leave off at the end of the ancient Syrio/Babylonian presence [so do the related visions of all of the prophets] and then resume again to the rise of the little horn in the same geographical location at the time of the end [Daniel 8:9-12; 8:23-25]

There will emerge a similar setting of two rival kingdoms, one north and one south of a returned remnant of Israel and it is the little horn who will prevail .... and he will successfully add the southern kingdom to his holdings .... and also invade and occupy Israel for a short period of time [Daniel 11:41; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

This little horn is the same as the "other prince" noted in Daniel 9:26-27

The Lord will come and destroy him and his kingdom of followers at Armageddon and then establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth with its central core in Jerusalem [Jeremiah 30:1-8; Ezekiel 38; 39;Daniel 2:34-35; 2:44-45; 7:9-14; 7:18; 7:21-22; 7:26-27; Micah 4:1-3; 5:1-15; Zechariah 14:1-9;Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21; 20:4]

 

[LastSeven]

When Jesus spoke those words, was it because there was a war in heaven?

I'm not sure what you're asking or what point you're trying to make. Jesus spoke those words because he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Revelation 12 tells us that there was war in heaven at that time.

 

[Straightshot]

This particular war in heaven between Michael and his angels and the devil and his angels has not yet come to pass but will take place at the beginning of the coming tribulation period, and specifically with regard for Israel

Revelation 12 is all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan

The break in the visions, past and future, is found between 12:5 and 12:6

The past in the first century, and the future when a remnant of Israel will have to flee for protection from Satan who will be cast out of heaven and to the earth [Zechariah 14:4:5; Matthew 24:15-16]

Satan will peruse and attempt to destroy the believing remnant and also those still residing in the nations [Revelation 12:12-17]

Revelation 12:6-17 is a view of the future still to be fulfilled .... no record of the past satisfies these things that will befall Israel during the coming tribulation .... same as the time of the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble to come [Jeremiah 30]

The prophets who see these future and unfulfilled things regarding Israel must be added together in order to get the completed rendering

Satan's fall to the earth in this case is coming .... he still has access to heaven as we speak

Here he is [Revelation 8:10-11; 9:1] .... this falling is what the Lord refers to in Luke 10:18

Satan is subject to His power and the gates of hell will not prevail against it .... when Satan is cast to the earth at the time of the end and bared from access to heaven he will rage for a short time [Revelation 12:12]

Then he will be cast into the abyss for 1000 years [Revelation 20:1-3]

He will be released again to deceive the mortal nations of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom, and then he will be destroyed in the Lord's lake of fire [Revelation 20:10]