Without a Church home - feeling lost - reposted from TAW

[Markie Boy]

I have re-posted this from TAW so Catholics can share as well without debating where we shouldn't. Thank you for that thecolorsblend!

I'll open by saying if this may get too controversial - move to St. Justin's. However I am not here to debate at all - and I request, please no replies from protestants - Orthodox or Catholic only.

I think I have hit the wall where I can no longer try to be Catholic, with little hope left to change that. It makes me sad, as my family is Catholic, my daughter is at confirmation age, my youngest at first communion age.

My reading on Papal Infallibility and it's history renders it simply not true. Pope Francis statement that "God wills the plurality of all religions" confirms this. I don't buy the fine print that it's not "ex-cathedra". When you speak to the whole world you are teaching - let your yes be yes, and no be no.

But it makes me sad - not angry - because it didn't have to be this way. The implications of this are that if the "dogma" is false, then Vatican I was in error, and Catholic councils are not infallible.

I simply don't know what to do, or where to take my family. You guys have been one of the kindest communities I have run into so I'm here. There is one Orthodox parish I found 1.25 hours away.

Coming from where I am - what are the chances I'll run into issues there like liberalism, poor teaching, cold community, etc? I don't think I have the spiritual strength to change and go into another bad environment right now.

I think I have theological issues I'd have to overcome with Orthodoxy yet - but I seem to have those with all churches. I just don't feel like any one church has really held to the Apostles ways without adding or changing stuff.

Thank you and God Bless - and thanks for putting up with me.

 

[Arc F1]

I have re-posted this from TAW so Catholics can share as well without debating where we shouldn't. Thank you for that Chevy!

I'll open by saying if this may get too controversial - move to St. Justin's. However I am not here to debate at all - and I request, please no replies from protestants - Orthodox or Catholic only.

I think I have hit the wall where I can no longer try to be Catholic, with little hope left to change that. It makes me sad, as my family is Catholic, my daughter is at confirmation age, my youngest at first communion age.

My reading on Papal Infallibility and it's history renders it simply not true. Pope Francis statement that "God wills the plurality of all religions" confirms this. I don't buy the fine print that it's not "ex-cathedra". When you speak to the whole world you are teaching - let your yes be yes, and no be no.

But it makes me sad - not angry - because it didn't have to be this way. The implications of this are that if the "dogma" is false, then Vatican I was in error, and Catholic councils are not infallible.

I simply don't know what to do, or where to take my family. You guys have been one of the kindest communities I have run into so I'm here. There is one Orthodox parish I found 1.25 hours away.

Coming from where I am - what are the chances I'll run into issues there like liberalism, poor teaching, cold community, etc? I don't think I have the spiritual strength to change and go into another bad environment right now.

I think I have theological issues I'd have to overcome with Orthodoxy yet - but I seem to have those with all churches. I just don't feel like any one church has really held to the Apostles ways without adding or changing stuff.

Thank you and God Bless - and thanks for putting up with me.

I can't help with all of that but you aren't alone. I've been without a church for about a year now. I don't think I have it in me to find another one. The people were great but the message was getting lost and heading the wrong direction.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I have re-posted this from TAW so Catholics can share as well without debating where we shouldn't. Thank you for that Chevy!

That was me.

My reading on Papal Infallibility and it's history renders it simply not true.

Others can probably handle this more efficiently than I can. Nevertheless, I emphasize that when papal infallibility was declared vs. when it was believed are two very different things. This is very old doctrine, it has tons of precedent in Sacred Tradition and it's a very logical doctrine.

Pope Francis statement that "God wills the plurality of all religions" confirms this. I don't buy the fine print that it's not "ex-cathedra". When you speak to the whole world you are teaching - let your yes be yes, and no be no.

I can understand that. But at the same time, the definitions and distinctions concerning ex cathedra teachings still exist.

As a convert, I spent the great majority of my early life protesting the Church. I won't do so again. So while Pope Francis (frequently) makes statements that I don't understand, I won't turn against the Church.

I remind myself that the Church has been all over the place during her history. Contrary to popular belief, there hasn't ever been a "golden age" for the Catholic Church. Every era finds her facing new challenges that previous generations never could've predicted or planned for. For me, the fact that the Church has such a long history of overcoming challenges in spite of all the chaos is a good indicator of the divine origin and supernatural guidance she claims to possess. The facts line up very much with her claims.

But it makes me sad - not angry - because it didn't have to be this way. The implications of this are that if the "dogma" is false, then Vatican I was in error, and Catholic councils are not infallible.

I agree that IF the concept of papal infallibility is wrong then subsequent teachings and councils predicated on it are wrong as well. However, I do not believe that it is wrong.

Coming from where I am - what are the chances I'll run into issues there like liberalism, poor teaching, cold community, etc? I don't think I have the spiritual strength to change and go into another bad environment right now.

I'll allow our Orthobros over in TAW to speak more fully to this part of your post. However, I would caution you that a lot of Orthodox have very different ideas about things like divorce, abortion, marriage/LGBT unions.

I think I have theological issues I'd have to overcome with Orthodoxy yet - but I seem to have those with all churches. I just don't feel like any one church has really held to the Apostles ways without adding or changing stuff.

That's the whole point. We have a living faith as we live in a changing world. The apostles couldn't possibly predict the vast technological, political, social and other changes the world would undergo. Their testimony and teachings were fine in their day and they still have many powerful lessons for us today. But they're not the final word for us today. That's the entire reason why the Magisterium exists, why new councils can be held and why the Church is our best guarantor for teachings which are free from error.

As I am Catholic, my biases should be obvious. In good conscience, I cannot condone or encourage leaving the Church at any time for any reason. Still, I know only too well that fatigue can set in for any believer anywhere. In my experience, going back to basics and fundamentals of the faith are good medicine. Prayer, reading scripture, receiving the Blessed Sacrament, these things can be a big help.

 

[Markie Boy]

That was me.

Others can probably handle this more efficiently than I can. Nevertheless, I emphasize that when papal infallibility was declared vs. when it was believed are two very different things. This is very old doctrine, it has tons of precedent in Sacred Tradition and it's a very logical doctrine.

I can understand that. But at the same time, the definitions and distinctions concerning ex cathedra teachings still exist.

As a convert, I spent the great majority of my early life protesting the Church. I won't do so again. So while Pope Francis (frequently) makes statements that I don't understand, I won't turn against the Church.

I remind myself that the Church has been all over the place during her history. Contrary to popular belief, there hasn't ever been a "golden age" for the Catholic Church. Every era finds her facing new challenges that previous generations never could've predicted or planned for. For me, the fact that the Church has such a long history of overcoming challenges in spite of all the chaos is a good indicator of the divine origin and supernatural guidance she claims to possess. The facts line up very much with her claims.

I agree that IF the concept of papal infallibility is wrong then subsequent teachings and councils predicated on it are wrong as well. However, I do not believe that it is wrong.

I'll allow our Orthobros over in TAW to speak more fully to this part of your post. However, I would caution you that a lot of Orthodox have very different ideas about things like divorce, abortion, marriage/LGBT unions.

That's the whole point. We have a living faith as we live in a changing world. The apostles couldn't possibly predict the vast technological, political, social and other changes the world would undergo. Their testimony and teachings were fine in their day and they still have many powerful lessons for us today. But they're not the final word for us today. That's the entire reason why the Magisterium exists, why new councils can be held and why the Church is our best guarantor for teachings which are free from error.

As I am Catholic, my biases should be obvious. In good conscience, I cannot condone or encourage leaving the Church at any time for any reason. Still, I know only too well that fatigue can set in for any believer anywhere. In my experience, going back to basics and fundamentals of the faith are good medicine. Prayer, reading scripture, receiving the Blessed Sacrament, these things can be a big help.

Oh dang - sorry about that thecolorsblend! I fixed it on my post.

 

[Markie Boy]

I have to say the simple fact that nobody can agree on a list of infallible statements means it's not so clear through history. Watch clergy or apologists debate on what was or was not an infallible statement - and the argument refutes the concept of clarity.

No such list exists because nobody can agree. And they have to be careful what they choose because some statements really contradict others. Boniface the 8th Unam Sanctam meets all the requirements - but flies in the face of current teaching.

 

[pdudgeon]

I'm far from being an expert on many things.

That said, I think that it's just as important to remember that listening to God is a voluntary act for all of us, AND it is also a tug-of-war between God and the self as to what is said in response to God's direction.

There is no question that what God says is true.
But the response to what God says is still voluntary.
And that response begins with one single person that God gives His message to.

If you can think of a message from God as being conveyed through a smooth, hollow tube, and then spoken forth just as it was heard, then you've got the idea of Papal pronouncements.
That smooth, hollow tube is supposed to be a description of the way that pope's act to convey what they have heard God telling them.

Even in a Pope, it doesn't always work like it's supposed to.

So while God works to protect the message, the care of the delivery of that message is the responsibility of the person to whom it was given!

And quite frankly we've seen some very sloppy delivery in our time.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I have to say the simple fact that nobody can agree on a list of infallible statements means it's not so clear through history. Watch clergy or apologists debate on what was or was not an infallible statement - and the argument refutes the concept of clarity.

No such list exists because nobody can agree. And they have to be careful what they choose because some statements really contradict others. Boniface the 8th Unam Sanctam meets all the requirements - but flies in the face of current teaching.

If you refer to Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, at the time Boniface issued that papal bull, that was broadly true. And honestly, it's still true. Only Catholics are in Heaven. As an act of grace, God may make allowance for people who lived as non-Catholics. But the fact remains that they will be Catholic in Heaven even if they were not Catholic in life.

 

[Markie Boy]

Yeah the funny thing is, Boniface basically would’ve excluded all of Eastern orthodoxy. I highly doubt that is true, as the east seems to have preserved original teaching better than the west.

And the facts remain that nobody can agree on a list of infallible statements, which means it was not so clear from the beginning.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Yeah the funny thing is, Boniface basically would’ve excluded all of Eastern orthodoxy. I highly doubt that is true, as the east seems to have preserved original teaching better than the west.

We don't know that he was wrong in saying what he said even if he had the Eastern Orthodox in mind at the time that he made his statement.

Do you believe in the Catholic understanding of the papacy? No need to give your life story. A simple yes or no will suffice.

And the facts remain that nobody can agree on a list of infallible statements, which means it was not so clear from the beginning.

The only people unable to do it are the ones who aren't qualified. Those who are qualified to do it have generally declined to do so. Their reasons are their own. But claiming that the same institution which promulgated the Catechism is somehow unable to do this is simply not a credible statement.

 

[Markie Boy]

I'd have to say No. One can find papal primacy in history - one can find no support for infallibility or supremacy unless you do a ton of eisegesis.

The papacy has become something it was not in history. So, nope on the pope as it is today.

As far as a list of Infallible statements - they can't do it. Watch the Apologists - qualified guys - come up with different numbers. With so much confusion why no do it to clarify? Only one reason - they can't.

Unam Sanctam does not fit anywhere in today's Catholic theology. These are the things that have led me to believe Catholicism is not what it claims to be.