Withholding from the poor - grave sin?

[BrotherKnight]

From the CCC:

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs." "The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity":

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.



1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."

(Emphasis mine.)

Thoughts?

 

[Protinus]

From the CCC:

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs." "The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity":

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.



1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."

(Emphasis mine.)

Thoughts?

a sin among sins to deprive them; works alone will not do. This is very troubling to soul as it should be.

 

[BrotherKnight]

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.

32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.

37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee?

39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee?

40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.

43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.

44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?

45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[Protinus]

thanks

 

[BrotherKnight]

a sin among sins to deprive them; works alone will not do. This is very troubling to soul as it should be.

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:


16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Forest]

Withholding from the poor - grave sin?

It was very grave for the rich man who ignored the beggar Lazarus.

 

[BrotherKnight]

And who are our neighbors? Those who live next door to us? Yes, but that is not the extent of it...in this day in age, the day of internet and technology, everyone throughout the world is our neighbor.

So then, to what extent do we give? When do we say, "I have given enough..."? I would like to propose that the answer is, "Not until we have nothing left to give."

I am not saying this in hypocrasy, nor am I saying that this is what I currently do, but just like when God spoke through a jack-ass in Numbers, God (in this instance I propose) speaks through this jack-ass.

Do we love God? Our Lord showed us the example of true love - sacrafice. The two commandments Christ gave us - to love God with our whole being above all, and to love our neighbor as we love ourself - were we to love as such, giving any amount to any neighbor I dare say would not even begin to feel as a sacrafice, but a joy.

Increase our love Lord.

 

[BrotherKnight]

It was very grave for the rich man who ignored the beggar Lazarus.

Indeed.

 

[Protinus]

very well spoken and hard to heed. I pray for the poor and what access I have to them, make me an instrument to care for them, to sustain them- let me be reminded of this daily, hourly, that I may comfort and aid them.

 

[BrotherKnight]

For those who have ears to hear, let them hear.

 

[GK]

Good words, but what do they actually mean? How is it lived out? What do these words mean when I'm walking down the street and no less than 17 beggars hold their hands out to me? How do we balance helping the person next door with helping the person across the country with helping the person across the globe? How do I tell who is really poor and who is just pretending to be poor in order to take advantage? At what point does my responsibility for that determination end?

 

[BrotherKnight]

From the CCC:

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."

Matt 6:

19 Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

20 But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.

 

[BrotherKnight]

Good words, but what do they actually mean? How is it lived out? What do these words mean when I'm walking down the street and no less than 17 beggars hold their hands out to me? How do we balance helping the person next door with helping the person across the country with helping the person across the globe? How do I tell who is really poor and who is just pretending to be poor in order to take advantage? At what point does my responsibility for that determination end?

I answered this in post #7:

And who are our neighbors? Those who live next door to us? Yes, but that is not the extent of it...in this day in age, the day of internet and technology, everyone throughout the world is our neighbor.

So then, to what extent do we give? When do we say, "I have given enough..."? I would like to propose that the answer is, "Not until we have nothing left to give."

I am not saying this in hypocrasy, nor am I saying that this is what I currently do, but just like when God spoke through a jack-ass in Numbers, God (in this instance I propose) speaks through this jack-ass.

Do we love God? Our Lord showed us the example of true love - sacrafice. The two commandments Christ gave us - to love God with our whole being above all, and to love our neighbor as we love ourself - were we to love as such, giving any amount to any neighbor I dare say would not even begin to feel as a sacrafice, but a joy.

I am leaving for lunch right now, I will try to address this some more when I return.

Be not affraid.


Increase our love Lord.

 

[BrotherKnight]

Good words, but what do they actually mean? How is it lived out?

They mean pretty much just what they say. If you live for God, truly live for God - you will not need to ask this question. You must love, but you cannot love what you do not know, so, then, study God through the Scriptures, through the saints and through the Church.

What do these words mean when I'm walking down the street and no less than 17 beggars hold their hands out to me?

Give them what you can.

How do we balance helping the person next door with helping the person across the country with helping the person across the globe?

If you truly care, you will seek those with the most need...if you do all things out of love you can do no wrong.

How do I tell who is really poor and who is just pretending to be poor in order to take advantage?

That is not wholly up to you to decide. If you give out of love to a poor person, you will receive a reward. If you give out of love to a rich person, but are deceived into thinking he was poor, you will receie a reward still.

At what point does my responsibility for that determination end?

The day you die. You are to love others as you love yourself, if others are struggling and you are not, then you could say that it is your obligation to do what you can without risking your health and/or safety of your and/or your family.


*Re-read the first couple of posts I made in this thread to see if you gain any more clarity.

 

[BrotherKnight]

2444 "The Church's love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition." This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor. Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to "be able to give to those in need." It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.



2445 Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you. (Jas. 5:1-6)


The Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-12)


3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.


5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.


7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.


8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.


9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.


10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:


12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I agree.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

Good words, but what do they actually mean? How is it lived out? What do these words mean when I'm walking down the street and no less than 17 beggars hold their hands out to me? How do we balance helping the person next door with helping the person across the country with helping the person across the globe? How do I tell who is really poor and who is just pretending to be poor in order to take advantage? At what point does my responsibility for that determination end?

Whether they are true or false beggars is of no consequence, either way they are in need of unconditional love in their life, since probably the reason they're forced to beg or are resort to scam is because they've never had it. Does it mean you should dole out cash to everyone on the street? No. But, if you're really concerned about it just ask the Lord to help you cultivate your ability to share you time talent and treasure. It doesn't mean you give of yourself until there's no more to give, just that you hear the Lord when he asks you to do it.

A friend of mine lives out in the country in a private, oh I don't know what you'd call it, community where the rich people live on the lake on one side (they have the cool summer houses and are only there for the summer)--and the people of more meager means live on the river side. The river side, the people live there, they have no vacation home, it is their home. My friend lives on the river, and there was a man down the road who was dirty and stinky, no one talked to him, lived in a dilapidated house on the riv, and she felt that the Lord wanted her to reach out to him. So once per week she invited him over to dinner to share with her and her family. That went on for two years, and I think the guy eventually moved, but she just spent time with him and didn't treat him like a leper. Could be something that simple.

Michelle

 

[Maggie893]

Whether they are true or false beggars is of no consequence, either way they are in need of unconditional love in their life, since probably the reason they're forced to beg or are resort to scam is because they've never had it.

Actually I think this is very important. We are not called to fix other peoples lives with our gestures, we are called to share in other peoples lives. It's not ours to determine what the person will do with the money. It's God's to do that work. If I spend time determining how a person will use what I give them instead of just giving it then I'm really giving for what I can get. I'm giving because I think they need the money rather than because they asked. I want to be able to say to myself, Look at the good thing I did. If I believe that they will "just drink it away" and so choose to not give to them, it's because I think it will be a poor investment.

All this, I think stuff, is not what God asked of us. Once we have given, we should let it be in God's hands. Let Him work in the soul who has received. If that soul makes a mistake, let God deal with it. Lord knows, I've squandered many pennies in my lifetime....should I withhold a good gift because they might make the same mistake I did? Never. Jesus said, if someone takes your cloak don't stop him from taking your tunic too. So if a person asks for money, whether for good or for bad....be generous.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I had a whole response to this thread typed out earlier and it wouldn't let me post--so I'll try again...


This thread assumes that the poor are those who have no material goods, or not 'enough' material goods--however most of the poorest of the poor who we will meet in our lives are those who can neither give love or be loved- those wounded and broken in the depths of their souls--the do not need our things--They need US- they need us to love them when they are unloveable, to listen to them, to treat them with love, reverence, and dignity---how many people in our families or our workplaces are angry, grumpy, annoting people--they are the poorest of the poor.

I also object to the idea that we need to give until we have no more-- for someone with a family that would just be irresponsible. God tells us in Sacred Scripture that He prefers 10% of our firstfruits- not that we must give everything. I think the key is remembering that all of what we have is God's--including and especially our time- and to give generously and with great love.
We must use our possesion for God's glory-- how many use their cars to help the homebound get to church? Or to the store? How many use their car to take them to daily Mass? To Adoration for at least an hour a week? To take food to those in need? A car allows us to do much for the glory of God--I would be remiss if I gave it away or gave away the money I use yto buy it or maintain it...

 

[Carrye]

how many people in our families or our workplaces are angry, grumpy, annoting people--they are the poorest of the poor.

That joke, that witty remark held on the tip of your tongue; the cheerful smile for those who annoy you; that silence when you're unjustly accused; your friendly conversation with people whom you find boring and tactless; the daily effort to overlook one irritating detail or another in the persons who live with you... this, with perseverance, is indeed solid interior mortification.

– St. Josemaria Escriva, The Way, #173