Witchcraft...Wicca...Satanism?

[jrmorganjr]

Perhaps this thread should be moved? It's in a "For Christians Only" area and there's definitely proselytizing for the wiccan / pagan religions going on here. This breach of trust disturbs me, although I imagine it was unintentional.

I think the earlier contention that wiccans only do "good magic" is patently false from a Christian perspective. No person is capable of doing "only good" - we are all sin ridden. This sounds like all wiccans are saints. By Christians standards, the guilt of their sin is still upon them as they have not trusted in Christ to forgive them.

Everyone has the personal right to believe how they want, but there are consequences. God has a personal right to be believed in how he demands. As Christians, we think there is only one correct way to do that - through Christ. If we're right, everyone else is wrong, and Christianity is the "true religion". That's the nature of truth. If we're wrong, and Christ did not rise from the dead, then as the apostle Paul said, we are the most pitiful people in existence. Blue_eyes1313, I admire your desire to be accomodating and social, please keep that quality. I don't think you lose anything, however, in politely but unequivocally stating what you believe in.

There seems to be a great pull for pantheism (the all roads lead to God aspect of it, anyway) and universalism in this thread. I, for one, don't think there is any proof for this in scripture or any other writing. I believe it's our own compassion being twisted about and getting confused with our wanting everyone to be saved. But it's a lie. Not all religions are equal, religions are not relativisitic (Well, this religion is good for you, but not for me...), morality is not relativisitic. God is absolute, truth is absolute, morality's value is directly related to how truly they reflect God's laws. Moral equivalence between religions and moralities is an evil lie spread by the deceived and the deceiving.

Christians, don't allow this lukewarm, fuzzy thinking confuse you. There are some perfectly nice and decent atheists, wiccans, Muslim, etc. We should love them and share truth with them. But we must maintain our convictions and beliefs that Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. None comes to God but through Him. He is the Door, He is the Good Shepherd, He is the true vine, the one sent from God and the one who has returned to Him. He will come again to judge us and to save us.

I say these things out of Love and a heartfelt desire to bring others to Truth.

In Christ,

 

[JOhnPreparer]

One things for sure. You need to know where the power for your magic come from??? It's from the true God or some other forces??? From what I know, God do not let His disciple to do magic. But more towards miracles and healing
There is no good or bad magic. All magic comes from a source and only can be from one - the devil.

ONe advice: Do not play with fire (unknown force)
jp-don't dwell with something you do not know

 

[Clay]

i moved this thread to the InterFaith Forum so there shouldnt be any problems now.

brt28006-yes, you are very correct in saying that the "witches" in the Salem Witch Trials were not actually witches but victims of people's paranoid minds. that doesnt, however, hinder true witches from using those trials as kind of a "stepping stone" from which to start practicing in Salem. this stuff is very real. ive even seen a little boy who had no control over himself whatsoever and was totally submissive to this one woman. was it her son? i do not know. all i know is from watching this boy and looking into his eyes, he was not himself.

all forms of supernatural occurrences have something behind them, abeit God or Satan. we know from Moses that Satan can imitate the same things God can genuinely do (the snakes). with this in mind, EVERYTHING that appears to be the least supernatural needs to be examined until there is no doubt that it is from either God or Satan.

 

[MysticalSoul]

I have many Wiccan and Pagan friends. None of them do anything to hurt anyone. I agree with ex-christain about magick not being "good" or "bad". I also agree that not all Wiccans do spells, same for pagans.

*I happen to be Pagan*

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I say to-may-to
You say to-mah-to.

 

[jrmorganjr]

Am I on a Christian board here? All other religions are the same as Christianity?

Where are the defenders of the faith? I can't be the only voice speaking for Absolute Truth and Absolute Holiness!

There is one Jehovah God. The Lord God is one, as revealed in the scriptures. Wicca, paganism, witchcraft practices, do not hold to these most basic of truths. They cannot be reconciled with Christianity, their practices are idolatry, they will be judged and found wanting.

Only Christ. All else is deception, delusion, and fallen.

 

[brt28006]

Originally posted by jrmorganjr

There is one Jehovah God. The Lord God is one, as revealed in the scriptures. Wicca, paganism, witchcraft practices, do not hold to these most basic of truths. They cannot be reconciled with Christianity, their practices are idolatry, they will be judged and found wanting.

What is idolatry?
I have my definition, but could I hear yours?

If its "worships idols as gods", I'm afraid that that is incorrect.
Statues, altars, etc., are used to help us visualize the god or goddess better, grant them an Earthly visualization for our convenience. The exact same motivation behind reverence for the Cross.

 

[jrmorganjr]

My definition of idolatry is any practice which puts a thing, being or belief as having greater value and importance in your life than Jehovah God. It is anything which takes a higher precedence in your heart than a relationship with Christ.

It has a secondary definition of worshipping a thing or object associated with a god(s). The thing itself rather than what it stands for, to be clear. Christians don't worship the cross. The cross reminds us of one of the reasons that we worship God, and God alone.

Is your definition the same, only substituting "The goddess" for Jehovah God / Christ? I would still consider that idolatry, to remain consistent with my definitions and views on Truth. From a human perspective, you could accuse me of the same thing as a Wiccan. And then it would depend on who was right, in the Absolute perspective!

 

[Thinker]

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again:

According to the standards of the day (the time period of Jesus and Paul), from a pagan perspective, Jesus was nothing more than another magician. All of his miracles, without exception, were held to be within the capabilities of a competent wizard. Apollonius of Tyana, a contemporary of Jesus and Paul, and a follower of the Greek Gods, actually matched Jesus miracle for miracle; furthermore, his ethical teaching is about on a par with that of Jesus. Some of the oldest known christian artefacts are `magical' amulets; and the surviving magical papri show that many christian miracles are actually reworked versions of pagan spells.

 

[jrmorganjr]

And each time you say it, you will be deceiving people with your fallacious reasoning.

Why present to Christians pagan langauge and pagan thinking applied to Christian world view? Perhaps it would be more illustrative if you showed that Appollonius claimed to be either God incarnate (if he's truly Christ-like) or the Devil himself (who desires to be Christ-like). It would make your comments more consistent, clear, and encompassing.

Why do I care if pagans want to carve a very small portion of the person of Christ (setting aside the divine), and say that it is pagan-like? Good spin, but you don't have all of Christ encompassed in the attributes you are using for your comparison. It's like me saying that humans and apes have roughly the same sexual and sleeping patterns, so they're pretty much the same thing.

 

[Clay]

no man can raise another from the dead but Christ.

no man can raise himself from the dead but Christ.

no man can defeat death but Christ.

Christ is no magician, but he is God.

Christ is the TRUE way and all others are deceptive traps.

 

[elephanticity]

and I THINK "elephantecity" (or whatever it is) is also neo pagan...not sure

Elephanticity, like electricity....Or, as i usually type it, e-phant. It really is a pain of a name, isn't it?

For the record, not exactly anything with a label. Believe all religions are something to be treasured, and that we have something to learn everywhere. Problem is where people try to apply the rules of their religion to non-members.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Here is my 2 cents: I read a few books on Wicca and it is no where near what people perceive it to be. Wiccans are usually good people that believe in preserving life. I had a friend in college that is Wiccan and she was very nice and very understanding of Christianity and she never judge Christianity.

Wicca (an alternative name for modern witchcraft) is a positive, shamanistic nature religion with 2 main deities honored and worshipped in Wiccan rites: the Goddess(the female aspect and a diety related to the ancient Mother Goddess in Her triple aspects of Maiden, Mother, and Crone) and Her consort, the Horned God (the male aspect). Their names vary from one Wiccan tradition to the next, and some traditions use different diety names in both their higher and lower degrees.

Wicca often includes the practice of various forms of white magick (usually for healing purposes or as a counter to negativity), as well as rites to attune oneself with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phased of the moon and the four season. Wicca (which is also known as the "Craft of the Wise" or often just "The Craft") is considered by many to be both a monistic and pantheistic religion, and is part of the modern Pagan resurgence, or neo-Pagan movement, as many prefer to call it.

Most Pagans seem to agree on many of these commonly held beliefs (1) Divinity is immanent or internal, as well as transcendent or external. This is often expressed by the phrases "Thou Art God" and "Thou Art Goddess" (2) Divinity is just as likely to manifest itself as female. This has resulted in a large number of women being attracted to the faith and joining the clergy. (3) A multiplicity of gods and goddesses, whether as individual dieties or as facets of one or a few archtypes. This leads to multi-valued logic systems and increased tolerance toward other religions. (4) Respect and love of Nature as divine in Her own right. This makes ecological and activity a religious duty. (5) Dissatisfaction with monolithic religious organizations and distrust of would-be-nessiahs and gurus. This makes Pagans hard to organize, "even for their own good", and leads to constant mutation and growth in the movement. (6) The conviction that human beings were meant to live lives filled with joy, love, pleasure, and humor. The traditional Western concept of sin, guilt, and divine retribution are seem as misunderstandings of natural growth experiences.

There are tons of others...but I think everyone gets the point. I got the above info. from a book that I own called Wicca Craft by Gerina Dunwich. She is a practicing witch and has written numerous books on Wicca.

 

[ex_christian]

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Perhaps this thread should be moved? It's in a "For Christians Only" area and there's definitely proselytizing for the wiccan / pagan religions going on here. This breach of trust disturbs me, although I imagine it was unintentional.

I think the earlier contention that wiccans only do "good magic" is patently false from a Christian perspective. No person is capable of doing "only good" - we are all sin ridden. This sounds like all wiccans are saints. By Christians standards, the guilt of their sin is still upon them as they have not trusted in Christ to forgive them.

Everyone has the personal right to believe how they want, but there are consequences. God has a personal right to be believed in how he demands. As Christians, we think there is only one correct way to do that - through Christ. If we're right, everyone else is wrong, and Christianity is the "true religion". That's the nature of truth. If we're wrong, and Christ did not rise from the dead, then as the apostle Paul said, we are the most pitiful people in existence. Blue_eyes1313, I admire your desire to be accomodating and social, please keep that quality. I don't think you lose anything, however, in politely but unequivocally stating what you believe in.

There seems to be a great pull for pantheism (the all roads lead to God aspect of it, anyway) and universalism in this thread. I, for one, don't think there is any proof for this in scripture or any other writing. I believe it's our own compassion being twisted about and getting confused with our wanting everyone to be saved. But it's a lie. Not all religions are equal, religions are not relativisitic (Well, this religion is good for you, but not for me...), morality is not relativisitic. God is absolute, truth is absolute, morality's value is directly related to how truly they reflect God's laws. Moral equivalence between religions and moralities is an evil lie spread by the deceived and the deceiving.

Christians, don't allow this lukewarm, fuzzy thinking confuse you. There are some perfectly nice and decent atheists, wiccans, Muslim, etc. We should love them and share truth with them. But we must maintain our convictions and beliefs that Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. None comes to God but through Him. He is the Door, He is the Good Shepherd, He is the true vine, the one sent from God and the one who has returned to Him. He will come again to judge us and to save us.

I say these things out of Love and a heartfelt desire to bring others to Truth.

In Christ,

You are writing this as a christian rather than an objective observer. This bothers me b/c I can just as easily stand on my little soap box and say that Wicca is "the true religion" and the only way t God and that all Christians are wrong.

I will NOT do that (even though I may think it...lol) b/c I is a biased statement, I would be stating it as a wiccan and not as an indifferent outsider, or an objective observer.

I dont want to sound bossy and I am not a moderator but I would like to make a suggestion to all those who post: You will be listened to more by others if you avoid lines such as "There seems to be a great pull for pantheism (the all roads lead to God aspect of it, anyway) and universalism in this thread. I, for one, don't think there is any proof for this in scripture or any other writing. "
b/c that line is merely your christian opinion, you are quoting scripture. Do you think the judge will let you go free if you stone a prostitute? NO. As sad as this may sound to some christians, we are just no longer living in a christian society. Fine be Christian, whatever, but dont go acting like everyone should go by what you believe in.

Also avoid lines such as: "No person is capable of doing "only good" - we are all sin ridden."
and
"the guilt of their sin is still upon them as they have not trusted in Christ to forgive them."

These are blatantly your Christian opinion. If you would like to reach a wider audience perhaps you could right something like "IN MY OPINION no one group of people can be 'saints' because we are human and all humans commit errors" and just COMPLETELY exclude that last sentence.

My intention is not to sound bossy, but to show you another way of communicating in a non offending wayh with ppl of other faiths and speaking in a non biased way. After all this is "Interfaith Discussions"

~Ex

 

[ex_christian]

Originally posted by brt28006


Prayer = asking your god to do something
Magick = telling your god to do something
Magick definition 2 = manipulating divine energy, and not specific god/goddess powers themselves

I must say I disagree, I am not sure what pagan religion you belong to, but in wicca at least, we do not "ORDER" the goddess to do things for us. It is the same as prayer and maybe a modified version of the third definition, but not the 2nd one.

 

[ex_christian]

Originally posted by JOhnPreparer
One things for sure. You need to know where the power for your magic come from??? It's from the true God or some other forces??? From what I know, God do not let His disciple to do magic. But more towards miracles and healing
There is no good or bad magic. All magic comes from a source and only can be from one - the devil.

ONe advice: Do not play with fire (unknown force)
jp-don't dwell with something you do not know

Have you ever heard of "Deus Absconditus"? God is above our level of intellect and therefore is unknowable, ununderstandable. By your definition we shouldnt dwell with god.

Please rethink that.

~Ex

 

[will_wait4Him]

Originally posted by ex_christian
Also avoid lines such as: "No person is capable of doing "only good" - we are all sin ridden."
and
"the guilt of their sin is still upon them as they have not trusted in Christ to forgive them."

These are blatantly your Christian opinion. If you would like to reach a wider audience perhaps you could right something like "IN MY OPINION no one group of people can be 'saints' because we are human and all humans commit errors" and just COMPLETELY exclude that last sentence.

Ok, those weren't opinions, they're the truth. Satan and his minions have flooded your mind and have lead you to believe that your not doing anything evil, but you actually are. I don't know if you read what I posted two pages back, so I'll post it again.

People often turn to magick because they want more control over what happens to them. They're afraid, and they don't trust God's control of the events of their lives.

When many people in Ephesus became Christians, they realized the evil in real magic. They burned their books of magic, which can be found in Acts 19:18-20. Now that doens't just apply to Christians, that applies to everybody.

Look people, including the ones who have Wiccan friends and think there's nothing wrong with it. Magick isn't right. I think one of you said that a magician was able to do exactly the same things Jesus could do. About that, when Moses turned his staff into a cobra, the Egyptian priests did the exact same thing. What the Egyptian priests did was real magick, given by Satan. Satan is the actual one who is behind all falls religions.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Will wait4him, No offense but that is the truth to you. To Wiccans what they believe is true. So in your personal opinion what you believe maybe true because you have no absolute way of knowing what you believe is true or not, until the end, whenever that is...

For you to say that Satan has flooded someone's mind to someone who doesn't even believe in Satan is pointless. And it's kind of mean.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Christian but I don't see the harm in respecting someone else's way of life.

 

[will_wait4Him]

I did think about what I said before I last signed off, and I do respect her other peoples religions, I'm just simply spreading the word.

 

[brt28006]

Originally posted by ex_christian


I must say I disagree, I am not sure what pagan religion you belong to, but in wicca at least, we do not "ORDER" the goddess to do things for us. It is the same as prayer and maybe a modified version of the third definition, but not the 2nd one.

I was saying that those are the basic definitions of the purpose of magick in general, not necessarily neo-Pagan or Wiccan magick.
I personally believe what you said in your last sentence of the quote. "maybe a modified version of the third definition, but not the 2nd one."

by Missythebutterfly:
Wicca (an alternative name for modern witchcraft)

Do you mean Wicca is the name for "the most recent form of witchcraft"?
Other, far more ancient traditions, are still practiced in modern times.