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Wine and God's anger

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by JohnClay, May 8, 2021.

  1. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

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    I was doing some research into Bible blood baths and came across this passage:
    Isaiah 63:2-6
    Why are your clothes red?
    They look as if you have been stomping
    on grapes in a winepress.

    The Lord answers, “I have been stomping on the nations
    as if they were grapes.
    No one was there to help me.
    I walked all over the nations because I was angry.
    That is why I stomped on them.
    Their blood splashed all over my clothes.
    So my clothes were stained bright red.
    I decided it was time to pay back Israel’s enemies.
    The year for me to set my people free had come.
    I looked around, but no one was there to help me.
    I was shocked that no one gave me any help.
    I used my own power to save my people.
    I had the strength to do it because I was angry.
    I walked all over the nations because I was angry with them.
    I made them drink from the cup of my great anger.
    I poured out their blood on the ground.”

    I found related verses about wine and anger:

    Job 21:20
    Psalms 60:3
    Psalms 75:8
    Jeremiah 25:15
    Ezekiel 23:31-32
    Joel 3:13
    Zechariah 12:2
    Revelation 14:10
    Revelation 14:19
    Revelation 16:19
    Revelation 19:15

    On Google the photos of wine spills look very similar to blood....

    There are also verses about wine and Jesus' blood in communion. I wonder if that has anything to do with God's anger as well....

    I was wondering about God's anger - is it compatible with him being perfectly loving, etc?
     
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  2. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

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    the world was different in the past


    what awaits in the afterlife?

    ~
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  3. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    God's anger towards sin is righteous. He is holy and just and never sins. His love and compassion are evident. He loves His children. He brought us to Jesus.

    “All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.” – John 6:37

    “No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” –Romans 8:37-39

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
    whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
    John 3:16

    "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
    1 John 1: 5-10
     
  4. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Can a Buddhist speak for Jesus?
     
  5. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

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    I'm also Christian

     
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    The analogy of a winepress was something everyone in those days could relate to. Grapes were put into a press and utterly destroyed. "Blood" ran out of them in the form of grape juice. It's used throughout the bible to refer to destruction. It's analogous to heaps of dead bodies. The destruction is so great that piles and piles of dead bodies appear and blood flows from them.

    You mentioned Rev 14:19 above. This is a description of it from The War of the Jews by Flavius Josephus regarding the siege of Jerusalem:

    Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath.

    4. However, when Titus, in going his rounds along those valleys, saw them full of dead bodies, and the thick putrefaction running about them...
     
  7. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

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    BTW the next verse is interesting:
    Revelation 14:20
    In the winepress outside the city, the grapes were stomped on. Blood flowed out of the winepress. It spread over the land for about 180 miles. It rose as high as the horses’ heads.
     
  8. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    The Revelation describes the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, though it is told in prophetic language using the imagery of the old testament.
     
  9. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

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    Revelation Chapter 14
    says "a picture of tremendous carnage in the battle of Armageddon"... that's the impression I had....
     
  10. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    You choose: Christ or Buddha. You can't be both.
     
  11. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

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    I think both are true.

    I merely accept the truth.

     
  12. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    It doesn't work that way. Atheists also believe they have the truth.
     
  13. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    "Armageddon", "Har Megiddo", "Tel Megiddo". The place of meeting. It's a crossroads in northern Israel where trade routes converge. Vespasian led his army across the Dardanelles and rendezvoused with the barbarian armies of the East (see Rev 16:2) at Har Megiddo before turning south. There had been a severe drought during the time, see Deut 11:17, and especially Rev 11:3-6.

    Tel Megiddo - Wikipedia
     
  14. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

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    The mundane is true, but not true enough.

    Because the supramundane is true.

     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  15. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    YES...
     
  16. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    God does not have emotions, He is unchanging. The verse is an allegory as is most of the O.T. Isaiah 63:2 Commentaries: Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
     
  17. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

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    why do you think this?

     
  18. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is compatible when you consider he's also perfectly just. Otherwise, how do you continually "love" the oppressor without forsaking mercy to the oppressed?

    Just a side note, I've heard the passage in Isaiah 63 may explain the Lord's vesture being dipped in blood (and only his) when he returns with the saints in Revelation 19:13-14

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  19. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

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    What does "I was angry" mean if it doesn't involve an emotion?

    There's also verses like:
    Exodus 4:14 "Then the Lord became very angry with Moses"
     
  20. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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