Will you let the bible ...

Clare73

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well, that's sort of strange then because he's talked about
the justified person behaving better
Because the justified person has repented, changed his mind/life, and now believes, whereupon God imputes (credits/reckons) righteousness to; i.e., justifies, him (Romans 4:1-11).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Au contraire. . .there is much of the NT about which you are uninformed.

"Forgiveness" is an accounting term, meaning "payment/cancellation of debt."
God's forgiveness is cancellation of our sin debt, where in mercy he provided payment of our debt by the sacrifice of his Son.

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (whom God set forth a propitiation; mercy) through faith in is blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as
to be just (requiring payment) and the one who justifies (makes payment; makes righteous) those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:25-26).

Sacrifice is mercy when that sacrifice saves me from having to pay my own sin debt; i.e., eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).

Context of Hosea 6:6? . . .God desired mercy (obedience), not insincere sacrifices (by the disobedient).

I cannot help but think I have been served a very large portion of Eisegesis.
 
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Clare73

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I cannot help but think I have been served a very large portion of Eisegesis.
Now to be accountable for that assertion that it may have merit, all you have to do is Biblically demonstrate it.
Otherwise, it is just personal opinion.
 
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fhansen

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Because the justified person has repented, changed his mind/life, and now believes, whereupon God imputes/credits/reckons righteousness to; i.e., justifies, him (Romans 4:1-11).
Why would a justifed person do such righteous things if righteousness is merely declared of him, if he's just a saint in name only?
 
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Clare73

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Why would a justifed person do such righteous things if righteousness is merely declared of him, if he's just a saint in name only?
Evidently you don't understand the nature of repentance that comes with the faith that justifies. . .it's not about feeling sorrowful, it's about a mighty turning/changing of mind and life.
 
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Hammster

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Why would a justifed person do such righteous things if righteousness is merely declared of him, if he's just a saint in name only?
Because justified people are first regenerate people. New creations.
 
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Mark Quayle

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IDK, He could be an evil creator who loves torturng. We don't call the shots. Fortunately God is good. So you don'[t need to keep making up nonsese.
Torturing WHAT? There's nothing there besides him, in comparison. Puny.

But besides that, you don't seem to understand before recklessly throwing out "could have" and "could be" for everyone's consideration, the raw fact of omnipotent self-existence and its implications. Positive default fact, (aseity and simplicity), does not admit to cruelty. Your notion is invalid, to put it nicely.

Then, of course, there is the obvious fact that whatever happens is all that ever happens which proves your hypothesis wrong. He could not have been cruel nor bad, because he is not cruel nor bad. And there is no other God. Your notion is worse than silly.
 
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concretecamper

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Evidently you don't understand the nature of repentance that comes with the faith that justifies. . .it's not about feeling sorrowful, it's about a mighty turning/change of mind and life.
yes, infused rightousness, not imputed :oldthumbsup:
 
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Mark Quayle

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Wow, you put words in my mouth. of course it's about who He is and I sais nothing diffrerent. And who He is is reflected in what He does. And what He does for us is motivated by His love. So, why do you think that God must be good??? In order to be God? A creator could be a tyrant. Fortunately God is love.
Goodness is what it is because of God. He doesn't choose to be good or to do good things. Have you no concept of what it means to create ex nihilo? The mathematical 'absolute value' of genesis from nothing, implies positivity. Not badness, which is dependent on goodness for its very meaning.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I am going to say that the verse is about mercy as mercy and sacrifices as the Old Covenant defined them. God desires mercy and not sacrifice.
Matthew 9:13 Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners.'

Now you are agreeing with me on the use of the words, 'mercy' and 'sacrifice' in that verse. WHAT does that have to do with the question of whether God's sacrifice of his Son for our sakes was not mercy on us?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Alright, so you acknowedge that we're changed, for the better, that we now have a righteousness that we didn't possess before, rather than a strictly declared righteousness.

No. I acknowledge that we have indeed changed, but that change is no more righteous than than the imputed righteousness. You say, "that we now have a righteousness that we didn't possess before, rather than a strictly declared righteousness.", but you should have said, "in addition to" a strictly declared righteousness.

So that our justice before God is not based simply on a declaration or imputation or pretense, but on whether or not we actually are righouness/holy, etc, by His grace. And it then follows that we might compromise that state, we could walk away from it, we could fail to put to death the deeds of the flesh, fail to do good, fail to forgive, fail to love, fail to live by the Spirit, etc, eventually removing ourselves from God's fellowship.
We all 'compromise' that state. What is your point —is there any among us that does not? Thank God for his grace! and for Christ's imputed righteousness!
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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That’s mostly in the OP.
Nonsense. The OP isn't pretended exegesis.
My religion, my faith is more wedded to being kind and showing compassion than it is to law and gospel, to justice and rightness. So I ask of my self "will you let the bible teach you to punish and to judge the 'world' casting some away?" which translates to will I let the bible teach me to be unkind and hard - to treat anyone badly because justice demands it or their faults deserve it?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Folk ought to learn the meaning of words! :)
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Now you are agreeing with me on the use of the words, 'mercy' and 'sacrifice' in that verse. WHAT does that have to do with the question of whether God's sacrifice of his Son for our sakes was not mercy on us?
A costly sacrifice indeed is the sacrifice that Christ made of himself. His life for the life of the world. Did God the Father desire such a sacrifice?
Hebrews 10:1-18 So, since the Law contains no more than a reflection of the good things which were still to come, and no true image of them, it is quite incapable of bringing the worshippers to perfection, by means of the same sacrifices repeatedly offered year after year. 2 Otherwise, surely the offering of them would have stopped, because the worshippers, when they had been purified once, would have no awareness of sins. 3 But in fact the sins are recalled year after year in the sacrifices. 4 Bulls' blood and goats' blood are incapable of taking away sins, 5 and that is why he said, on coming into the world: You wanted no sacrifice or cereal offering, but you gave me a body. 6 You took no pleasure in burnt offering or sacrifice for sin; 7 then I said, 'Here I am, I am coming,' in the scroll of the book it is written of me, to do your will, God. 8 He says first You did not want what the Law lays down as the things to be offered, that is: the sacrifices, the cereal offerings, the burnt offerings and the sacrifices for sin, and you took no pleasure in them; 9 and then he says: Here I am! I am coming to do your will. He is abolishing the first sort to establish the second. 10 And this will was for us to be made holy by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ made once and for all. 11 Every priest stands at his duties every day, offering over and over again the same sacrifices which are quite incapable of taking away sins. 12 He, on the other hand, has offered one single sacrifice for sins, and then taken his seat for ever, at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting till his enemies are made his footstool. 14 By virtue of that one single offering, he has achieved the eternal perfection of all who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit attests this to us, for after saying: 16 No, this is the covenant I will make with them, when those days have come. the Lord says: In their minds I will plant my Laws writing them on their hearts, 17 and I shall never more call their sins to mind, or their offences. 18 When these have been forgiven, there can be no more sin offerings.​
This is not about mercy, nor is the sacrifice presented as mercy, but the sacrifice - as was the case in the old covenant - made mercy possible. The blood of the sacrifice made on the day of atonement was sprinkled on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant as a sign that mercy was asked for and as a promise that it is granted.

So, God the Father wanted Mercy and not sacrifice. as the scripture that was first mentioned in this context says "Whoever acts without mercy will be judged without mercy, but mercy can afford to laugh at judgement." (James 2:13)
 
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