Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?

[parousia70]

Jer.31:31-34 has NEVER been fulfilled by Israel. It WILL NOT be fulfilled until they ACCEPT IT!

Of course it has.
The Faithful of Israel (which is always, everywhere, every time in scripture counted as TRUE Israel while the rest are cut off from the people) did accept it. That much is clear.

When Israel rejected Jesus as thert Messiah during His first advent, God opened the New Covenant up to the Gentiles.

The Faithful of Israel did NOT reject Jesus. Mary, Joseph, the 12, the 70, the 3000 at Pentecost and many more Are true Israel for they accepted and followed Israels Messiah.

In addition, the Church IS NOT Israel, nor any part of Israel. Nor is Israel the Church, in the event you harbor any views to that effect.

Quasar92

You do realize that the Church was 100% Jewish in it's makeup for years do you not?
"The Church" in Acts 2:47 had a grand total of 0 Gentiles in it.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, as you demonstrate from your postings, you have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

 

[JLB777]

Pardon me? You are advising me "unless I address the plain Scriptures and points that have been made, instead of ignoring them, you will continue to be clouded about this issue?"

May I introduce myself? I am a WWII vet in my 94th year. Having studied the Bible since becoming a born again Christian in August of 1937, while in High School. Earned qualifocations to teach the Bible from two Bible Colleges as well as several PG courses at others. My studies in Prophecy/eschatology and theology specifically cover the past 35 years. In addition to having held memberships in five different church denomitions, depending upon where I was living at the time, I have spent 17 years participaing on Christian website discussion forums. And where may I ask did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?

You can find my teachings pertaining to this issue in posts 76; 77; 78 and 79. Please let me know if you have any questions.


Quasar92

Here is the scripture that shows Jesus is coming WITH His Church, FOR His Church at His coming.


With His Church: Those who have died and are with Him in Heaven, to receive their glorified body.

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

For His Church: He will come with His saints who are in Heaven, for His saints on Earth, so that all will be gathered together to be with Him, at His coming.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18



JLB

 

[JLB777]

The epistles of Paul, in 1st and 2nd Thess 4:16-17 and 2.2:3 and 7-8 are about the pre-trib rapture of the Church, BOT a falling away, whether acceptable to you or not. Trained eschatology expositors fully endorse it as such.


Quasar92

Please explain to us how the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which the brightness of His coming destroys the antichrist can occur BEFORE the tribulation.

If the antichrist is destroyed BEFORE the tribulation, then how will there be a tribulation?


CASE CLOSED!

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The scriptures plainly teach us the resurrection/rapture happen at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.

The scriptures plainly teach us the destruction of the antichrist happen at His coming.

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The three main things that happen at His coming:

The Resurrection.
The Rapture.
The destruction of the antichrist.


All discussion of the coming of the Lord must include these three topics, which occur at His coming!!!
You have yet to even address these vitals truth, to honestly discuss this.


JLB

 

[BABerean2]

Jer.31:31-34 has NEVER been fulfilled by Israel. It WILL NOT be fulfilled until they ACCEPT IT!

No Second chances...


Based on Acts 2:36-41, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28, was accepted by 3,000 Israelites on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36　 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.　
Act 2:41　 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.　


They are a part of the "remnant" found in Romans 9:27.


Rom 9:27　 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:　



The exact text of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is copied word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13 and is bracketed at the beginning and the end of the passage with verses making it clear that this New Covenant was in effect during the first century. This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


All false doctrines are exposed by the passages their proponents must ignore to make the doctrine work.
For modern Dispensational Theology, Acts 2:36-41, and Hebrews 8:6-13 are two examples that must be ignored, if the doctrine is going to work.

.

 

[Quasar92]

Of course it has.
The Faithful of Israel (which is always, everywhere, every time in scripture counted as TRUE Israel while the rest are cut off from the people) did accept it. That much is clear.



The Faithful of Israel did NOT reject Jesus. Mary, Joseph, the 12, the 70, the 3000 at Pentecost and many more Are true Israel for they accepted and followed Israels Messiah.



You do realize that the Church was 100% Jewish in it's makeup for years do you not?
"The Church" in Acts 2:47 had a grand total of 0 Gentiles in it.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, as you demonstrate from your postings, you have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Review my post #156 that provides the Scriptural facts pertaining to non-believing Israel. The god and faithful Israel you allude to are part of the ONE BODY OF CHRIST, His Church, as recorded in 1 Vor.12:12-13. There is no such thing as any other Israel, other than the Israel of the OT. Show me your Scriptural support to verify your views.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

No Second chances...


Based on Acts 2:36-41, the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28, was accepted by 3,000 Israelites on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36　 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.　
Act 2:41　 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.　


They are a part of the "remnant" found in Romans 9:27.


Rom 9:27　 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:　



The exact text of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is copied word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13 and is bracketed at the beginning and the end of the passage with verses making it clear that this New Covenant was in effect during the first century. This is confirmed by Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


All false doctrines are exposed by the passages their proponents must ignore to make the doctrine work.
For modern Dispensational Theology, Acts 2:36-41, and Hebrews 8:6-13 are two examples that must be ignored, if the doctrine is going to work.

.

The early Church consisted mostly of Jews. When they believed/received Jesus as their Lord and Messiah, they became members of the ONE BODY OF CHRIST, His Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.. Israel is NOT the Church, and the Church, is NOT Israel! Provide me the Scriptures to very any such claims!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Please explain to us how the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which the brightness of His coming destroys the antichrist can occur BEFORE the tribulation.

If the antichrist is destroyed BEFORE the tribulation, then how will there be a tribulation?


CASE CLOSED!




8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The scriptures plainly teach us the resurrection/rapture happen at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.

The scriptures plainly teach us the destruction of the antichrist happen at His coming.

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The three main things that happen at His coming:

The Resurrection.
The Rapture.
The destruction of the antichrist.


All discussion of the coming of the Lord must include these three topics, which occur at His coming!!!
You have yet to even address these vitals truth, to honestly discuss this.


JLB[/QUOTE


The man of lawlessness, the three "he's" in Dan.9:27, the Antichrist, triggers the seven years of tribulation. The Church is raptured BEFORE that takes place, according to Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Review Rev.19:11-21 for the chronological order of events following the second coming of Jesus, seven years later, when the Antichrist and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns/nations are destroyed, ending the tribulation.

In 2 Thess.2:3, the apostasia, Greek word for DEPARTURE, takes place BEFORE the man of Lawlesness is revealed. In verse 7, ...he, the Church, is taken out of the way, BEFORE the lawless one in verse 8 is revealed, The man of lawlessness, is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, who is the trigger for the seven years of tribulation. Clear Scriptural support for the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.

Your ongoing attitude you know more than people trained in eschatology and theology, is a failure. Review Rev.19:11-21 for the chronological order of events, pertaining to the dispositition of the Antichrist/the man of lawlessness, the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations, after Jesus second coming WITH His Church!

Case Closed!


Quasar92

Review post #167, No, the case IS NOT closed!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Please explain to us how the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which the brightness of His coming destroys the antichrist can occur BEFORE the tribulation.

If the antichrist is destroyed BEFORE the tribulation, then how will there be a tribulation?



8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The scriptures plainly teach us the resurrection/rapture happen at His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.

The scriptures plainly teach us the destruction of the antichrist happen at His coming.

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The three main things that happen at His coming:

The Resurrection.
The Rapture.
The destruction of the antichrist.


All discussion of the coming of the Lord must include these three topics, which occur at His coming!!!
You have yet to even address these vitals truth, to honestly discuss this.


JLB

Review Rev.19:11-21 for the chronological order of events following Jesus second coming to the earth with His Church. You will find the Antichrist and the the False Prophet thrown into the lake of fire and the armies of the ten horns/nations destroyed, ENDING the tribulation.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Of course it has.
The Faithful of Israel (which is always, everywhere, every time in scripture counted as TRUE Israel while the rest are cut off from the people) did accept it. That much is clear.



The Faithful of Israel did NOT reject Jesus. Mary, Joseph, the 12, the 70, the 3000 at Pentecost and many more Are true Israel for they accepted and followed Israels Messiah.



You do realize that the Church was 100% Jewish in it's makeup for years do you not?
"The Church" in Acts 2:47 had a grand total of 0 Gentiles in it.
It was (and still is) the Nazarene sect of Judaism, the faithful remnant who followed Israel's Messiah. The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ).

However, as you demonstrate from your postings, you have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Just like with Moses in the Wilderness, Believing Faithful Israel continues, while Wicked, Apostate Israel is destroyed.

And Just Like Old Covenant Israel, Gentiles who believe and convert to New Covenant Israel are welcomed and received as full fledged citizens.

The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Please review my post #156 for the Scriptures that reveal Israel HAS NOT received Jesus as their Messiah yet, and therefore, neither have they accepted the New Covenant. Israel IS NOT the Church, not is the Church Israel!


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

In 2 Thess.2:3, the apostasia, Greek word for DEPARTURE, takes place BEFORE the man of Lawlesness is revealed. In verse 7, ...he, the Church, is taken out of the way, BEFORE the lawless one in verse 8 is revealed, The man of lawlessness, is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, who is the trigger for the seven years of tribulation. Clear Scriptural support for the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.

Your ongoing attitude you know more than people trained in eschatology and theology, is a failure. Review Rev.19:11-21 for the chronological order of events, pertaining to the dispositition of the Antichrist/the man of lawlessness, the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations, after Jesus second coming WITH His Church!

Case Closed!


Quasar92

In your browser, open an English/Greek dictionary and type in "apostasy" on the English side. What do you see on the Greek side?

Now open a Greek/English dictionary and type in "apostasia" on the Greek side. What do you see on the English side?

If you see "departure" anywhere there, you need to make an emergency appointment with either your optometrist, or your psychiatrist; or maybe both.

 

[Quasar92]

One more time! The Greek word, APOSTASIA has a number of meanings, such as apostasy, falling away, as well as to depart and departure. The text determines which of them is the proper one to use, such as DEPARTURE, in 2 Thess.2:3!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

In your browser, open an English/Greek dictionary and type in "apostasy" on the English side. What do you see on the Greek side?

Now open a Greek/English dictionary and type in "apostasia" on the Greek side. What do you see on the English side?

If you see "departure" anywhere there, you need to make an emergency appointment with either your optometrist, or your psychiatrist; or maybe both.

The Greek word APOSTASIA has meanings of apostasy, falling away, AS WELL AS to depart and departure. In spite of your attempt to make alterations to suit your personal belief system. It depends upon the text as to which of them is used. Which I have told you before.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

The Greek word APOSTASIA has meanings of apostasy, falling away, AS WELL AS to depart and departure. In spite of your attempt to make alterations to suit your personal belief system. It depends upon the text as to which of them is used. Which I have told you before.


Quasar92

Give me a link to any dictionary definition of apostasia that includes depart/departure.

 

[Quasar92]

Give me a link to any dictionary definition of apostasia that includes depart/departure.

IThat will be a piece of cake, when I have time to do so. I suggest you take another look before you end up with egg on your face.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

IThat will be a piece of cake, when I have time to do so. I suggest you take another look before you end up with egg on your face.


Quasar92

In the enduringly appropriate words of whom I'm sure is our mutual wabbit friend, Bugs Bunny: "It is to laugh."

How much time does it take to google "definition of greek word apostasia"?

I've been looking and looking, but just can't find that "depart/departure".

Let me know when you find it.

Thanks for the entertainment du jour.

 

[Quasar92]

In the enduringly appropriate words of whom I'm sure is our mutual wabbit friend, Bugs Bunny: "It is to laugh."

How much time does it take to google "definition of greek word apostasia"?

I've been looking and looking, but just can't find that "depart/departure".

Let me know when you find it.

Thanks for the entertainment du jour.

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.

Would you like more from where that came from?! Stop wasting my time!

I suggest the following for your reading about apostasia in 2 Thess.2:3:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia or Departure.pdf



Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Israel is NOT the Church, and the Church, is NOT Israel! Provide me the Scriptures to very any such claims!

Act 2:22　 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (Who did Peter think he was talking to, when he called them "men of Israel" ?)
　

Rom 11:1　 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.　


Gal 6:15　 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.　
Gal 6:16　 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.　


Heb 8:6　 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.　
Heb 8:8　 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

　

Mat 21:43　 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.　


1Pe 2:4　 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,　
1Pe 2:5　 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.　
1Pe 2:6　 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.　
1Pe 2:7　 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,　
1Pe 2:8　 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.　
1Pe 2:9　 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (And what nation would that be?)　
(Exo_19:6　 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.)

1Pe 2:10　 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.



Rom 9:6　 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:　
Rom 9:7　 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.　
Rom 9:8　 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.　


The New Covenant is about Grace, instead of Race.
Any doctrine which puts an emphasis on race, is wrong, based on 1 Timothy 1:4.
Modern Dispensational Theology is one of many examples.

.

 

[jgr]

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.

Would you like more from where that came from?! Stop wasting my time!

I suggest the following for your reading about apostasia in 2 Thess.2:3:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia or Departure.pdf

Quasar92

Here's the complete description from the HELPS Word-studies:

646 apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which derives from 575/apó, "away from" and 2576/kammýō, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy; (literally) "a leaving, departing from a previous standing."

1. 646/apostasia ("a standing-away") expresses departure (rejection) and implied rebellion (as also in the LXX). It means "to withdraw in revolt; departing from a former loyalty or commitment; a denying to gain something new; a defection, apostasy, revolt" (Abbott-Smith).

G. Archer, "646/apostasía ("departure") is a broad term that can refer to: final apostasy, i.e. a Christian losing their salvation by vacating their relationship with the Lord; or the temporary backsliding of a Christian (who remains a true Christian)."

1. 646 (apostasia) "properly signifies 'rebellion.' It is used, for example, of political rebellions and military rebellions. The characteristic thought of the Bible is that God rules. Thus the word is appropriate for a rebellion against His rule. . . . It includes the idea of forsaking one's former allegiance" (Leon Morris, The Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, 218).

[Plutarch and Josephus both used 646 (apostasía) to describe revolt from Rome (see Plutarch Galba 1; Josephus Vita 10).]

Reflection: Francis Schaeffer, "In a post-Christian world and in an often post-Christian church it is imperative to point out with love where apostasy lies. We must openly discuss with all who will listen, treating all men as fellow men, but we must call apostasy, apostasy. If we do not do that, we are not ready for reformation, revival, and a revolutionary church in the power of the Holy Spirit. We are all too easily infiltrated with relativism and synthesis in our own day. We tend to lack antithesis" (Death in the City, Downers Grove, InterVarsity Press: 1969, p 39).

Commentary

(2 Thes 2:3) G. Ladd, "The word 646 (apostasía) is sometimes translated 'falling away' and is understood to designate an apostasy within the Christian church. It is better translated 'rebellion' or 'revolt' as in the RSV. The idea is not so much that of drifting away from the Lord into apathy as a deliberate setting of oneself in violent opposition of God. This rebellion is to be a definite event, an apocalyptic happening. Anti-christ not only will oppose all divine authority, but will be supported by a general rebellion against God" (A Theology of the New Testament, 605).

[646/apostasia ("a spiritual departure") in NT lexicons is usually described as a "religious apostasy" (rebellion). See BAGD, Kittel, Cremer, Abbott-Smith, Thayer and the scholarly commentators on 2 Thessalonians by H. Alford, C. Ellicott, Moffatt, F. F. Bruce, Frame, Milligan, Morris, and others (ala R. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation, 115, 116).]

The following translators in the Reformation era rendered 646 (apostasía) as "departure": Tyndale (c. ad 1526), Coverdale (ad 1535), Cranmer (ad 1539), Geneva Bible (ad 1557) and Beza (ad 1565).


The idea of a spatial rapture departure is not to be seen. The departure is exclusively spiritual.

Now, about wasting time...

 

[JLB777]

Review Rev.19:11-21 for the chronological order of events following Jesus second coming to the earth with His Church. You will find the Antichrist and the the False Prophet thrown into the lake of fire and the armies of the ten horns/nations destroyed, ENDING the tribulation.


Quasar92

Another post with no scripture.

I know you want to change the subject, now that the truth has exposed the pre-trib doctrine to be false.

Please address the points I made, as to the Rapture, which is described in 1 Thessalonians 4, along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which takes place first, at His coming.

Here is the scripture that shows Jesus is coming WITH His Church, FOR His Church at His coming.


With His Church: Those who have died and are with Him in Heaven, to receive their glorified body.

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

For His Church: He will come with His saints who are in Heaven, for His saints on Earth, so that all will be gathered together to be with Him, at His coming.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

• The antichrist is also destroyed by the brightness of this very same coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8



JLB

 

[Quasar92]

Here's the complete description from the HELPS Word-studies:

646 apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which derives from 575/apó, "away from" and 2576/kammýō, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy; (literally) "a leaving, departing from a previous standing."

1. 646/apostasia ("a standing-away") expresses departure (rejection) and implied rebellion (as also in the LXX). It means "to withdraw in revolt; departing from a former loyalty or commitment; a denying to gain something new; a defection, apostasy, revolt" (Abbott-Smith).

G. Archer, "646/apostasía ("departure") is a broad term that can refer to: final apostasy, i.e. a Christian losing their salvation by vacating their relationship with the Lord; or the temporary backsliding of a Christian (who remains a true Christian)."

1. 646 (apostasia) "properly signifies 'rebellion.' It is used, for example, of political rebellions and military rebellions. The characteristic thought of the Bible is that God rules. Thus the word is appropriate for a rebellion against His rule. . . . It includes the idea of forsaking one's former allegiance" (Leon Morris, The Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, 218).

[Plutarch and Josephus both used 646 (apostasía) to describe revolt from Rome (see Plutarch Galba 1; Josephus Vita 10).]

Reflection: Francis Schaeffer, "In a post-Christian world and in an often post-Christian church it is imperative to point out with love where apostasy lies. We must openly discuss with all who will listen, treating all men as fellow men, but we must call apostasy, apostasy. If we do not do that, we are not ready for reformation, revival, and a revolutionary church in the power of the Holy Spirit. We are all too easily infiltrated with relativism and synthesis in our own day. We tend to lack antithesis" (Death in the City, Downers Grove, InterVarsity Press: 1969, p 39).

Commentary

(2 Thes 2:3) G. Ladd, "The word 646 (apostasía) is sometimes translated 'falling away' and is understood to designate an apostasy within the Christian church. It is better translated 'rebellion' or 'revolt' as in the RSV. The idea is not so much that of drifting away from the Lord into apathy as a deliberate setting of oneself in violent opposition of God. This rebellion is to be a definite event, an apocalyptic happening. Anti-christ not only will oppose all divine authority, but will be supported by a general rebellion against God" (A Theology of the New Testament, 605).

[646/apostasia ("a spiritual departure") in NT lexicons is usually described as a "religious apostasy" (rebellion). See BAGD, Kittel, Cremer, Abbott-Smith, Thayer and the scholarly commentators on 2 Thessalonians by H. Alford, C. Ellicott, Moffatt, F. F. Bruce, Frame, Milligan, Morris, and others (ala R. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation, 115, 116).]

The following translators in the Reformation era rendered 646 (apostasía) as "departure": Tyndale (c. ad 1526), Coverdale (ad 1535), Cranmer (ad 1539), Geneva Bible (ad 1557) and Beza (ad 1565).


The idea of a spatial rapture departure is not to be seen. The departure is exclusively spiritual.

Now, about wasting time...

the following two links are much too lengthy to post here. They both fully endorse th meaning of the Greek word apoistasia and the Latin word discessio in 2 Thess.2:3, to be DEPARTURE in the context Paul wrote it in.

Attempting to interpret it otherwise, is a failure and a waste of time.

Pre-Trib Research Center -

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-TheDeparturein2Thess.pdf


Quasar92