Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[Dave-W]

Does this make sense to you? I know it's a different paradigm than you're used to seeing, but it fits the textual evidence, and the rest of the New Testament, much better than what you are asserting.

Galatia was almost all Gentile, whereas Rome was definitely mixed. Romans is the only letter that goes back and forth.

 

[Gary K]

The Temple is described in Ezek chapters 40 and 41. If you compare the measurements with the original temple You will find it is different.

Dave,
I took a quick look at this vision which starts in chapter 40 and continues until the end of the book of Ezekiel. What follows is a first impression as it was just quick read.

In chapter 43 God gives some context to Ezekiel about this vision.

10 ¶Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Notice the conditional. That tells me this is a condtional prophecy based upon the response of the Jews. If they repent and turn away from their sins the prophecy comes true. If they do not, then the prophecy is not fulfilled.

I'll continue to study this, but I think these verses give us a good clue as to what type of prophecy this is.

 

[Dave-W]

So he's laying upon the FOUNDATION?
He shouldn't
He's doing just what 1 Corinthians 3 stresses not to do

You misread the text:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[Gary K]

Galatia was almost all Gentile, whereas Rome was definitely mixed. Romans is the only letter that goes back and forth.

You keep asserting that, but where is the textual evidence of what you're saying concerning the specific texts we are discussing? I don't see it. You're going to have to point it out.

 

[miknik5]

You misread the text:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Please read in context the reason behind why Paul stated this?

Men who are preaching were adding unnecessary "supposed wisdom" to THE FOUNDATION

Further you should also back up to chapters 1 and 2 of GOD's WORD to understand that Paul wasn't being taught by men. Thst what he had received he had received from GOD

Review in context and together 1 Corinthians 1 through 3

Paul was warning THE BODY not to listen to men and supposed teachers adding to THE FOUNDATION things not mecessary to THE FOUNDATION


And not to consider men anything more than just men

 

[miknik5]

Go and put a mark on the foreheads of all those who are appalled by these atrocities

The violent men of the covenant mentioned in Daniel won't be appalled

The condition of their heart is hard and unrepentive

 

[Dave-W]

Paul was warning THE BODY not to listen to men and supposed teachers adding to THE FOUNDATION things not mecessary to THE FOUNDATION

So Paul was warning them about the author of Hebrews?

5.11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

6.1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.​

I have found as have many others, most christians do NOT have these foundations built in their walk. So building these foundations are NOT laying it again.

 

[miknik5]

So Paul was warning them about the author of Hebrews?

5.11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

6.1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.​

I have found as have many others, most christians do NOT have these foundations built in their walk. So building these foundations are NOT laying it again.

You are switching gears to Hebrews. To a people confused as to what to do with regards to temple practices and you think you have made a connection?

You haven't

There is no need to lay any other FOUNDATION since CHRIST is HIGH PRIEST and anyone who cones directly to HIM (since it is only through HIM that we have access to THE FATHER by ONE SPIRIT) HE is faithful to cleanse us of all unrighteousness

In fact anyone whose hope is in HIM purifies themselves even as HE is pure

Have you read Haggai 2 yet

This is inline to GOD's declaration that all are unclean

So how can what is unclean be made clean

CHRIST washes as makes clean before GOD what apart from HIM washing is unclean

Not every man can approach GOD's throne

Only those who are covered

And those covered aren't waiting for and won't be approaching any throne but CHRIST JESUS

Are you understanding

 

[miknik5]

Try approaching the altar "on steps"

That's manmade toil

 

[Dave-W]

You are switching gears to Hebrews.

No - that was where I started; you pulled in Corinthians.

 

[miknik5]

No - that was where I started; you pulled in Corinthians.

Again don't add to the FOUNDATION

CHRIST alone is sufficient to save all men who come to HIM through faith in HIS blood as the covering needed before GOD

 

[miknik5]

No one needs to go to anyone or trust in anyone but CHRIST for their salvation

 

[Dave-W]

No one needs to go to anyone or trust in anyone but CHRIST for their salvation

Did you read the text? "going on to maturity?"

That is NOT about salvation. It is about growth AFTER salvation.
The vast majority of the NT is NOT about salvation, but how an already saved person is supposed to live.

 

[Dave-W]

CHRIST alone is sufficient to save all men who come to HIM through faith in HIS blood as the covering needed before GOD

Amen, you are already saved, I am already saved. (like 55 years ago)
I am talking about where we go from here.

 

[miknik5]

Did you read the text? "going on to maturity?"

That is NOT about salvation. It is about growth AFTER salvation.
The vast majority of the NT is NOT about salvation, but how an already saved person is supposed to live.

Maturity means growing up into the HEAD sir. Unto the full measure of CHRIST


It doesn't mean progressing above HIM. That's what John warns about in 2 John 1

 

[Gary K]

Dave,

I have done some more research into Ezekiel's vision of chapters 40-48.

Here is what Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary has to say on verses 7-12 of chapter 43.

7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. 8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. 10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. 12 This isthe law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

God does here, in effect, renew his covenant with his people Israel, upon his retaking possession of the house, and Ezekiel negotiates the matter, as Moses formerly. This would be of great use to the captives at their return both for direction and encouragement; but it looks further, to those that are blessed with the privileges of the gospel-temple, that they may understand how they are before him on their good behaviour.

I. God, by the prophet, puts them in mind of their former provocations, for which they had long lain under the tokens of his displeasure. This conviction is spoken to them to make way for the comforts designed them. Though God gives and upbraids not, it becomes us, when he forgives, to upbraid ourselves with our unworthy conduct towards him. Let them now remember therefore, 1. That they had formerly defiled God's holy name, had profaned and abused all those sacred things by which he had made himself known among them, 7. They and their kings had brought contempt on the religion they professed, and their relation to God, by their spiritual whoredom, their idolatry, and by worshipping images, which they calledtheir kings (for so Moloch signifies) or lords (for so Baal signifies), but which were really the carcases of kings, not only lifeless and useless, but loathsome and abominable as dead carcases, in their high places, set up in honour of them. They had defiled God's name by their abominations. And what were they? It was in setting their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, that is, adding their own inventions to God's institutions, and urging all to a compliance with them, as if they had been of equal authority and efficacy, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (Isa. xxix. 13); or, rather, setting up altars to their idols even in the courts of the temple, than which a more impudent affront could not be put upon the divine Majesty. Thus they set up a separation wall between him and them, which stopped the current of his favours to them and spoiled the acceptableness of their services to him. See what an indignity sinners do to God, setting up their walls in opposition to his, and thrusting him out from what is his right; and see what injury they do to themselves, for the nearer any come to God with their sins the further they set him at a distance from them. Some give this sense of it: Though their houses joined close to God's house, their posts and thresholds to hi, so that they were in a manner his next neighbours, there was but a wall between me and them (so it is in the margin), so that it might have been expected they would acquaint themselves with him and be in care to please him, yet they were not so much as neighbourly. Note, It often proves too true, The nearer the church the further from God. They were, by profession, in covenant with God, and yet they had defiled the place of his throne and of the soles of his feet, his temple, where he did both reside and reign. Jerusalem is called the city of the great king (Ps. xlviii. 2) and his footstool,Ps. xcix. 5; cxxxii. 7. Note, When God's ordinances are profaned his holy name is polluted. 2. That for this God had had a controversy with them in their late troubles. They could not condemn him, for he had but brought upon them the desert of their sins: Wherefore I have consumed them in my anger. Note, Those that pollute God's holy name fall under his just displeasure.

II. He calls upon them to repent and reform, and, in order to that, to be ashamed of their iniquities ( 9): "Now let them put away their whoredom; now that they have smarted so severely for it, and now that God is returning in mercy to them and setting up his sanctuary again in the midst of them, now let them cast away their idols and have no more to do with them, that they may not again forfeit the privileges which they have been taught to know the worth of by the want of them. Let them put away their idols, those loathsome carcases of their kings, far from me, from being a provocation to me." This was seasonable counsel now that the prophet had the model or pattern of the temple to set before them; for, 1. If they see that pattern,they will surely be ashamed of their sins ( 10): when they see what mercy God has in store for them, notwithstanding their utter unworthiness of it, they will be ashamed to think of their disingenuous conduct towards him. Note, The goodness of God to us should lead us to repentance, especially to a penitential shame. Let them measure the pattern themselves, and see how much it exceeds the former pattern, and guess by that what great things God has in store for them; and surely it will put them out of countenance to think what the desert of their sins was. And then, 2. If they be ashamed of their sins, they shall surely see more of the pattern, 11. If they be ashamed of all that they have done, upon a general view of the goodness of God, let them have a more distinct particular account of the temple. Note, Those that improve what they see and know of the goodness of God shall see and know more of it. And then, and not till then, we are qualified for God's favours, when we are truly humbled for our own follies. "Show them the form of the house; let them see what a stately structure it will be; and withal show them the ordinances and laws of it." Note, With the foresights of our comforts it is fit that we should get the knowledge of our duty; with the privileges of God's house we must acquaint ourselves with the rules of it.Show them these ordinances, that they may keep them and do them. Note,Therefore we are made to know our duty, that we may do it, and be blessed in our deed.

III. He promises that they shall be such as they should be, and then he will be to them such as they would have him to be, 7. 1. The house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name. This is pure gospel. The precept of the law says, You must not defile my name: the grace of the gospel says, You shall not. Thus what is required in the covenant is promised in the covenant, Jer. xxxii. 40. 2. Then I will dwell in the midst of them for ever; and the same again 9. God secures to us his good-will be confirming in us his good work. If we do not defile his name, we may be sure that he will not depart from us.

IV. The general law of God's house is laid down ( 12), That, whereas formerly only the chancel, or sanctuary, was most holy, now the whole mountain of the house shall be so; the whole limit thereof, including all the courts and all the chambers, shall be as the most holy place, signifying that in gospel-times, 1. The whole church shall have the privilege of the holy of holies, that of a near access to God. All believers have now, under the gospel, boldness to enter into the holiest (Heb. x. 19), with this advantage, that whereas the high priest entered in the virtue of the blood of bulls and goats, we enter in the virtue of the blood of Jesus, and, wherever we are, we have through himaccess to the Father. 2. The whole church shall be under a mighty obligation to press towards the perfection of holiness, as he who has called us is holy. All must now be most holy. Holiness becomes God's house for ever, and in gospel-times more than ever. Behold this is the law of the house; let none expect the protection of it that will not submit to this law.

He pretty much echoes what I said, that this is a conditional prophecy with the condition being that the Jews experience repentance and revival, in other words, a complete change of attitude towards God and live life according to His commands. It's pretty apparent that they did not for the majority of the Jews even refused to leave Babylon. They were too comfortable living among pagans to make the move back to Jersusalem and live lives dedicated to God.

This vision makes it clear that there was a lot more to it that Ezekiel never published for he was only to show the rest of the vision if there was a complete confession of past sins and a turning away from them. That he never did so says the response of the people was not acceptable to God.

Here is, according to scripture, what God required of them, and requires of us.

Psalms 34:18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.*n4
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 57:14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

To me, the above scripture goes right along with Ezekiel 43:10,11.

10 ¶Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.*n3
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

A broken, contrite, and humble heart would have been the result of being ashamed of how they had treated God as Matthew Henry did a good job of summarizing their attitude towards God by the sins he lists in his commentary.

I only hope that we, God's people today, will take this lesson to heart and approach God that way at all times. That His word, His commands, His truth, will be our lodestone and be the ruler of our hearts because we have broken, contrite, and humble hearts due to the sins we have committed.

 

[miknik5]

Dave,

I have done some more research into Ezekiel's vision of chapters 40-48.

Here is what Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary has to say on verses 7-12 of chapter 43.



He pretty much echoes what I said, that this is a conditional prophecy with the condition being that the Jews experience repentance and revival, in other words, a complete change of attitude towards God and live life according to His commands. It's pretty apparent that they did not for the majority of the Jews even refused to leave Babylon. They were too comfortable living among pagans to make the move back to Jersusalem and live lives dedicated to God.

This vision makes it clear that there was a lot more to it that Ezekiel never published for he was only to show the rest of the vision if there was a complete confession of past sins and a turning away from them. That he never did so says the response of the people was not acceptable to God.

Here is, according to scripture, what God required of them, and requires of us.



To me, the above scripture goes right along with Ezekiel 43:10,11.

A broken, contrite, and humble heart would have been the result of being ashamed of how they had treated God as Matthew Henry did a good job of summarizing their attitude towards God by the sins he lists in his commentary.

I only hope that we, God's people today, will take this lesson to heart and approach God that way at all times. That His word, His commands, His truth, will be our lodestone and be the ruler of our hearts because we have broken, contrite, and humble hearts due to the sins we have committed.

“IF”.
Just as Jeremiah 3 says.
However their repentance to GOD will be different than repentance because of that prick to the heart revelation of the truth of the GOSPEL?

Are you suggesting that there are two covenants?

 

[Gary K]

“IF”.
Just as Jeremiah 3 says.
However their repentance to GOD will be different than repentance because of that prick to the heart revelation of the truth of the GOSPEL?

Are you suggesting that there are two covenants?

I'm not sure as to how to answer you as I do not understand the phrase I bolded. Kinda looks like some sentences I have written when trying to rephrase something midstream and not completely re-writing the entire sentence leaving what I was trying to say undecipherable to someone who wasn't inside my mind when I wrote the sentence.

As to your second question, the Bible makes it pretty clear that there are at least two covenants in Jeremiah 31:31 when it refers to a "new" covenant. There couldn't be a "new" coveant if at least one older covenant did not exist. There are actually more than two covenants, if the Bible is to be taken at its word.
1. God makes a covenant with Abraham.
2. God makes one covenant with the Israelites at Sinai.
3. God makes a second covenant with the Israelites in the book of Deuteronomy.
4. There is another covenant hinted at in Exodus 31:13 and again in Ezekiel 20 verses 10 and 20.
5. God makes the promise of the "new" covenant in Jeremiah 31.

Now it can be argued that covenants 1, 4, and 5 are all one and the same covenant, and I have no problem with that argument, but the fact exists that there are shown to exist in the Bible multiple covenants made by God with we human beings.

 

[miknik5]

I'm not sure as to how to answer you as I do not understand the phrase I bolded. Kinda looks like some sentences I have written when trying to rephrase something midstream and not completely re-writing the entire sentence leaving what I was trying to say undecipherable to someone who wasn't inside my mind when I wrote the sentence.

As to your second question, the Bible makes it pretty clear that there are at least two covenants in Jeremiah 31:31 when it refers to a "new" covenant. There couldn't be a "new" coveant if at least one older covenant did not exist. There are actually more than two covenants, if the Bible is to be taken at its word.
1. God makes a covenant with Abraham.
2. God makes one covenant with the Israelites at Sinai.
3. God makes a second covenant with the Israelites in the book of Deuteronomy.
4. There is another covenant hinted at in Exodus 31:13 and again in Ezekiel 20 verses 10 and 20.
5. God makes the promise of the "new" covenant in Jeremiah 31.

Now it can be argued that covenants 1, 4, and 5 are all one and the same covenant, and I have no problem with that argument, but the fact exists that there are shown to exist in the Bible multiple covenants made by God with we human beings.

The promise to Abraham and his SEED

Meaning ONE SEED

If you’re not born of that IMPERISHABLE SEED than you are outside that covenant and promise

 

[Gary K]

The promise to Abraham and his SEED

Meaning ONE SEED

If you’re not born of that IMPERISHABLE SEED than you are outside that covenant and promise

ummm.... What has this to do with the questions you asked me? You asked if I was "implying" that there was more than one covenant, and one incomprehensible question. I answered the one question I could understand, as written, and I showed that God has made multiple covenants with humanity. Are you implying that the Bible is lying about this? What's you're point? What does this have to do with the vision of Ezekiel 40-48 as that is the only discussion I had entered into in this thread?