Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[miknik5]

Have you read Derek Prince's amazing opus on Heb 6.1-3?

Why would I be interested in the words of men telling me what GOD really said?
Isn't John 3 and 1 John 2 sufficient

 

[miknik5]

Have you read Derek Prince's amazing opus on Heb 6.1-3?

Have you read Haggai 2 Ezra 3 and Zechariah 4 yet. And have you believed 1 Corinthians 1 through 1 Corinthians 2 along with John 3 and 1 John 2 and what about HIS upper room discourse to HIS disciples in John 13 through John 17 regarding the PROMISE of GOD?

Why would we need men to tell us what GOD reveals by HIS SPIRIT to those born of HIS life giving SPIRIT

 

[Gary K]

There is no such thing in scripture as a "spiritual Israel."

That is one of the lies of replacement theology.

Dave,
What do you say in response to what Paul said about who is a Jew in Romans 2:25-28?

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Does this not open the door to a spiritual Israel, one that is made up of both Jews and Gentiles? The entire chapter of Romans 11 addresses this very idea.

 

[Dave-W]

I was really curious upon what foundation this belief was laid. I don't see the correlation to a 3rd temple being built because the New Testament makes it plain that our bodies are the temple of God. That He dwells inside of us.

While that is true, do you see the temple in Ezekiel as purely allegorical?
Do you see the temple the anti-messiah sets up as his throne room as allegorical?

 

[Dave-W]

Does this not open the door to a spiritual Israel, one that is made up of both Jews and Gentiles?

No. It makes room for what Paul calls in Eph 2.12 the "commonwealth of Israel."

The entire chapter of Romans 11 addresses this very idea.

Romans 11 says something different than what you think it says.

First off, Paul is writing to a congregation of mixed Jewish and Gentile believers. So there are different statements made to different groups. As to chapter 11, you have to understand that the Israel he is writing about is the physical Jewish people. The Cultivated olive tree (the saved) is at that point Israel, as no gentiles had become part of that tree and stayed Gentiles. Gentiles are born on the other tree doomed to destruction. For a gentile to be saved, he has to be cut from his native tree and become grafted into the tree of Israel. Individual Jews are broken (not cut) from their native tree due to unbelief, which means they can ONLY be restored to their original position; whereas a graft branch that is cut can be attached anywhere.

Paul then goes on to explain that the giftings and callings God gave the Jewish people at Sinai are still in effect. He uses the term "irrevocable." And that all of the Jews would eventually come to faith in Yeshua.

 

[Dave-W]

Why would I be interested in the words of men telling me what GOD really said?
Isn't John 3 and 1 John 2 sufficient

Because one of the main ministries of Eph 4 is "teachers."
If you reject sound bible teachers, you are rejecting HIS gift to the body.

Jn 3 and 1 Jn 2 do not address the doctrines that the author of Hebrews called foundational in Heb 6. they are:

Repentance
Baptisms (plural)
Faith
Laying on of hands
Resurrection of the dead
Eternal judgement

Whether you think they are foundations or not, scripture teaches us that they are.

 

[Gary K]

While that is true, do you see the temple in Ezekiel as purely allegorical?
Do you see the temple the anti-messiah sets up as his throne room as allegorical?

Could you give me the verse/s and chapter/s in Ezekiel you are referring to? Ezekiel is a pretty large book and, as I have said before, I am pretty new to these ideas. I had to ask tampasteve to explain what he meant by the 3rd temple.

I don't know how to really answer in detail until I know what scripture you are using. I'd just give this general response though: Many of God's prophecies are conditional. Isaiah tells us that God's temple was to be a house of prayer for all people, yet Jesus told the Jews of His day, your house is left unto you desolate. In other words, God's presence was withdrawn due to disobedience and the Jew's rejection of Jesus. Had they not gone where they did spiritually Isaiah's prophecy about the temple would have come true, and it would still be standing today. It's destruction was brought about by the spiritual decisions the Jews of those days made. I'm not running them down for we Gentiles have also made horrible spiritual decisions too. It's just a fact of history.

 

[Dave-W]

Could you give me the verse/s and chapter/s in Ezekiel you are referring to? Ezekiel is a pretty large book and, as I have said before, I am pretty new to these ideas. I had to ask tampasteve to explain what he meant by the 3rd temple.

The Temple is described in Ezek chapters 40 and 41. If you compare the measurements with the original temple You will find it is different.

 

[Gary K]

No. It makes room for what Paul calls in Eph 2.12 the "commonwealth of Israel."

Romans 11 says something different than what you think it says.

First off, Paul is writing to a congregation of mixed Jewish and Gentile believers. So there are different statements made to different groups. As to chapter 11, you have to understand that the Israel he is writing about is the physical Jewish people. The Cultivated olive tree (the saved) is at that point Israel, as no gentiles had become part of that tree and stayed Gentiles. Gentiles are born on the other tree doomed to destruction. For a gentile to be saved, he has to be cut from his native tree and become grafted into the tree of Israel. Individual Jews are broken (not cut) from their native tree due to unbelief, which means they can ONLY be restored to their original position; whereas a graft branch that is cut can be attached anywhere.

Paul then goes on to explain that the giftings and callings God gave the Jewish people at Sinai are still in effect. He uses the term "irrevocable." And that all of the Jews would eventually come to faith in Yeshua.

Dave,

Where do you get the idea that parts of the chapter are written to different groups of people? That certainly isn't supported by the wording of Paul. He is speaking to the Gentiles. The thought of chapter 11 is a continuation of what he said in chapter 10 and that is most definitely not written to Jews.

Romans 10: 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul is speaking to Gentiles here as he refers to Jews/Israel as they and them. I find no switch of pronouns in this chapter that shows that Paul is now speaking to Jews for he would have switched pronouns to "us" and "we" if he had. And now we see the end of chapter 10 and the beginning of chapter ll. Where is the switch between verse 3 and verse 19?

Romans 10: 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11: 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but ratherthrough their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so arethe branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Since it is your assertion that Paul is switching between groups in what he is saying, you're going to have to point out where he does this. Where he changes from from "them/they", i.e. speaking to the Gentiles, to "us/we", i.e. speaking to the Jews, and then back again. I find nothing of the kind in either chapter, thus I question where the supposed switching back and forth between addressing Jews and Gentiles occurs.

 

[Gary K]

The Temple is described in Ezek chapters 40 and 41. If you compare the measurements with the original temple You will find it is different.

Thanks, Dave. I will study this in the light of what you are saying.

 

[Dave-W]

Where do you get the idea that parts of the chapter are written to different groups of people? That certainly isn't supported by the wording of Paul. He is speaking to the Gentiles. The thought of chapter ll is a continuation of what he said in chapter 10 and that is most definitely not written to Jews.

Not the chapter, but the whole book:

Rom 2.17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Addressed to the Jewish believers in Rome.

If you are interested, our pastor is going thru Romans verse by verse, (and at times word by word). He is in chapter 2 now. They are usually put on the web on Thursdays. This week was #8.

Son of David Congregation - Sermons

 

[miknik5]

Because one of the main ministries of Eph 4 is "teachers."
If you reject sound bible teachers, you are rejecting HIS gift to the body.

Jn 3 and 1 Jn 2 do not address the doctrines that the author of Hebrews called foundational in Heb 6. they are:

Repentance
Baptisms (plural)
Faith
Laying on of hands
Resurrection of the dead
Eternal judgement

Whether you think they are foundations or not, scripture teaches us that they are.

One of the main first steps is being of HIS BODY. HE'll direct the members of HIS BODY as HE chooses


For one purpose. The building up of HIS BODY until we all reach the unity of faith

I have the best teacher

 

[Dave-W]

One of the main first steps is being of HIS BODY. HE'll direct the members of HIS BODY as HE chooses

While I do agree with what you say, is there any scripture that says this is a foundation?

For one purpose. The building up of HIS BODY until we all reach the unity of faith

Right. That is the reason HE put teachers in the church.

What do you have against Dr Prince?

 

[miknik5]

While I do agree with what you say, is there any scripture that says this is a foundation?

Right. That is the reason HE put teachers in the church.

What do you have against Dr Prince?

Ephesians 2

CHRIST is THE FOUNDATION and THE HEAD of HIS BODY (which is THE TRUE CHURCH )

The only thing I might have against this prince man is if he adds or goes above or takes away from the teachings of THE APOSTLES


Any teacher who does is not a teacher

 

[Dave-W]

CHRIST is THE FOUNDATION and THE HEAD of HIS BODY (which is THE TRUE CHURCH)

Covered in the first chapter.

The only thing I might have against this prince man is if he adds or goes above or takes away from the teachings of THE APOSTLES

So read him for yourself, or watch one of his you tube videos.

 

[miknik5]

Covered in the first chapter.

So read him for yourself, or watch one of his you tube videos.

Okay


What do you mean covered in the first chapter as if it isn't important to stress any longer?

This TRUE FOUNDATION is crucial

It's why CHRIST asked Peter who do the people say that I am


If we're not standing on the TRUE FOUNDATION were not in THE BODY.

We're still outside THE DOOR

 

[miknik5]

GOD said in Haggai 2 Ezra 3 and Zechariah 4 to pay careful attention to the foundation


Did you notice in Ezra the construct of the temple?


Prior to the foundation being laid by the toil and work of men's hands the offerings were brought


And they were accepted


Paul even talks further in 1 Corinthians 3 warning men to make sure that no man lays any other foundation than the one laid

And that is CHRIST

 

[Dave-W]

What do you mean covered in the first chapter as if it isn't important to stress any longer?

No - I mean this is not the place nor do I have the time to teach his entire course here. (I have taught it in the past several times) This set of vids takes about 10 hours. . The foundations build on on another; and by him laying this one in the first chapter, it is the under-structure for everything that follows.

 

[Gary K]

Not the chapter, but the whole book:

Rom 2.17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Addressed to the Jewish believers in Rome.

If you are interested, our pastor is going thru Romans verse by verse, (and at times word by word). He is in chapter 2 now. They are usually put on the web on Thursdays. This week was #8.

Son of David Congregation - Sermons

I would have to question your assertion here about the verses you quoted. Remember Paul's letter to the Galatians where he is combating the Judaizers and he addresses Gentiles who have accepted the idea that they must be circumcised to be saved? He asks them why they have so soon turned away from the Gospel and accepted circumcision and the law including circumcision as being necessary for salvation.

Paul makes it clear in chapter 1 that he is addressing Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

There is no evidence in chapter 1 in the verses following verse 13 that he changes his audience, and chapter 2 is a continuation of the ideas of chapter 1 for both Jews and Gentiles are guilty of the sins that Paul refers to in chapter 1, and both Jews and Gentiles had been guilty of not keeping God in mind and because of that being abandoned to their sins and chosen ignorance of God. Because of this I say Paul is still addressing Gentiles, but Gentiles who have accepted the fallacies that the Judaizers were spreading throughout the Christian church of the time and had come to believe that they had to be circumcised and accept the rest of the laws/traditions of the Jews to be saved. And it is because they have accepted this fallacy, and are teaching it to others, that Paul is calling them out.

In verse 17 of chapter 2 he says, addressing those who are judging others for not keeping the "law", not that they are Jews, but that they are "called Jews", and are trusting in the law that includes circumcision--rather than faith in Christ--and for this reason God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles. The difference between being a Jew and being called a Jew is a big difference. Then at the end of the chapter he says who it is that is truly a Jew, and that has nothing to do with externals such as circumcision. He completely destroys the arguments of both the Judaizers, and the Gentiles who have accepted their fallacies, who are arguing that circumcision is necessary.

This fallacy is exactly what Paul was combating in Galatia. This is a major problem throughout the Christian churches in Paul's day as we see this same issue in the book of Acts in other Christian churches of the day.

Does this make sense to you? I know it's a different paradigm than you're used to seeing, but it fits the textual evidence, and the rest of the New Testament, much better than what you are asserting.

 

[miknik5]

No - I mean this is not the place nor do I have the time to teach his entire course here. (I have taught it in the past several times) This set of vids takes about 10 hours. . The foundations build on on another; and by him laying this one in the first chapter, it is the under-structure for everything that follows.

So he's laying upon the FOUNDATION?
He shouldn't
He's doing just what 1 Corinthians 3 stresses not to do

And when you said "covered in the first chapter" you were referring to this man Prince's book and not GOD's WORD

Forgive me sir. But I'm going to skip the lesson