Will God suffer emotionally for eternity for those in hell?

Monk Brendan

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You're telling me Jesus didn't suffer on a cross, Monk Brendan? :)

I did not say that. God, the eternal, Father does not suffer.

YES, Jesus suffered on the Cross. YES He suffered in the garden. YES, he suffered when His friend Lazarus died.

But NO, the Holy Spirit doesn't suffer.

2 out of 3 isn't bad.
 
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Anguspure

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Making the bad news more bad is important, because your good news depends on the belief of the bad news.

For me, the rejection of true good news should not hold dire consequences. There is no believe this good news, or else you die. I have 1 million dollars for you hidden in a maze and few can make it to... go find it! Sounds like good news to me right? but wait! there is more! you have 30mins to find it and if you don't, you will die. I guess this is still good because, at least we are given a chance right?

I personally prefer the news before the dying part, but that is just me. But I agree, some need the 30 or die, or 30 or burn part, to go after the 1mill. I just don't happen to be one of them.

Think about it....If our spouses have to mention "I would have died if I didn't" whenever asked why they married us, I'd question their love for a few weeks.......then I'd get on to the baby making.
I think that our Lord knows full well how hopeless we all are at reciprocating His Love, it's why He Loved us first after all.
I think the better analogy is the a Father child one where I'm never upset if my little child reveals a self centered motive for the reason he wants to give me a cuddle. At worst it simply reveals how much work I've got to do and its enough that I Love him.
 
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Anguspure

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I did not say that. God, the eternal, Father does not suffer.

YES, Jesus suffered on the Cross. YES He suffered in the garden. YES, he suffered when His friend Lazarus died.

But NO, the Holy Spirit doesn't suffer.

2 out of 3 isn't bad.
The Spirit is in the relationship between Father and Son. Of course He suffers.
 
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white gardenia

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Interesting. That has never been my experience.



Whether churches are Reformed, Free Will or Semi-Pelagian, all churches/denominations that I know of within the pale of Christian orthodoxy teach the eternal, conscious damnation of the reprobate (and have done so throughout the history), so you would need to move to a fringe church or a cult to find a group that doesn't teach it.

No I agree...I'm just arguing that the concept of hell makes more sense from the arminian/ free will perspective than it does from the Calvinist. ie God wants everyone to be saved but it is up to us to make the right decision

As for....

1 Timothy 2
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 33
10 Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?” ’
11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

....what God desires, He doesn't always get (for instance, most/all choose to sin every single day irregardless of the fact that He wishes/desires that we wouldn't, because He gave us free will).

I actually like the concept of Calvinism...it aligns nicely with the scientific concept of determinism Determinism - Wikipedia

...but here is where the Calvinist view of hell falls apart IMO. I cant see how an all powerful God can plan every detail of the universe and yet somehow, the final product does NOT match up to what he actually wants. Calvinism implies that God actually wants one thing to happen but because of some undefined set of rules, something else happens... and God cant do anything about it. That doesn't add up to me.
On the other hand, I am partial to a form of Calvinism that believes that every aspect of the universe will ultimately be redeemed. ie the universe will eventually be exactly the way God wants it it to be...including what is explicitly stated in 1st Timothy (God's desire that all men be saved).
 
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Hidden In Him

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I did not say that. God, the eternal, Father does not suffer.

YES, Jesus suffered on the Cross. YES He suffered in the garden. YES, he suffered when His friend Lazarus died.

But NO, the Holy Spirit doesn't suffer.

2 out of 3 isn't bad.

The end of your post sounds almost tongue and cheek, so I suppose I should give it a pass, lol. :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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The Spirit is in the relationship between Father and Son. Of course He suffers.

I agree. Paul also stated that the Holy Spirit becomes grieved whenever we give ourselves over to a spirit of bitterness, anger and strife (Ephesians 4:30-32), so it seems little case can be made for the Father not being equally grieved, just as the Son and Holy Spirit are.
 
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RaymondG

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I think that our Lord knows full well how hopeless we all are at reciprocating His Love, it's why He Loved us first after all.
I think the better analogy is the a Father child one where I'm never upset if my little child reveals a self centered motive for the reason he wants to give me a cuddle. At worst it simply reveals how much work I've got to do and its enough that I Love him.
I think it is best not to compare your view of God with human relationships. You would do anything you can to save your children from death.....even by force, if you had the power to. This version makes is seem like the love of humans is greater than the love of God....which is not possible.

It is best to leave it as This......Take this good news, which is only salvation from bad news......as i have no good news unless I can get you to believe there is bad news first....to be saved from.

When anyone tries to examine, tell them, Gods ways are not ours and we cant understand them, and that the creation has no right to judge creator. And hope people believe this until they die.....until there is no chance for them to find any other truth and follow it.

Adding anything else will only complicate things. Another helpful statement would be to make others believe that the very ask of questioning could also remove the good news and leave only the bad.

This is interesting.......with these things in mind.......if we were to meet a stranger who knows nothing about religion and witness to them. We will have to first teach them about a Devil and Hell and Death....or there wouldnt even be a gospel. So before we met them, they were happy and joyous living life........and after hearing from us they will be in fear Running for their lives and running from death(or running to this "Good News" depending on how you want to look at it.)
 
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Marvin Knox

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Trying to wrap my head around this...God is pained by the fact that many will go to hell. Eternal hell. So, does that mean that God will forever feel pain? In a sense, will God suffer emotionally for eternity because He will forever be aware of those in hell, whom He loves, suffering for eternity?
I don't claim to understand all there is to know about the nature of God and what He is doing and will be doing in eternity. But I have some information from scripture about it and I have some personal theories about it.

God is omnipresent and always will be omnipresent. That includes in Heaven, in His creation, and in Hell. Frankly if you think that He isn't somewhere - that somewhere does not exist.

All things were created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word all things consist.

The Word of God exists now and from before the foundation of the world as both Lion and Lamb - as both conquering and reigning King and a suffering sacrifice and the recipient of eternal wrath.

All things are summed up for eternity in the Word of God in some way. Goodness, evil, joyful exaltation and crushing pain and suffering will all be summed up and on full display in Jesus Christ for the ages to come.

I do not believe that the sins of any one sinner would require eternal suffering in Hell while the one bearing the sins of the entire world would not incur the same eternal suffering.

Although I fully believe that the Son of God suffered once for all in a limited space of time here on earth - I believe that His suffering will continue for eternity as the Father crushes Him for all of the sins He bears. That is why He wanted so badly for there to be an alternative to His suffering - no just to escape 6 hours of torment here on earth, as horrible as that no doubt was.

I believe that all men will either find themselves existing for eternity in the body of Christ while reigning with Him and enjoying the love of God without measure or existing in eternity in Christ while suffering the wrath of God forever.

I believe that part of the pain unsaved men will suffer in eternity is watching the one who died for their sins suffering right along with them - precisely because of their personal sins. They will deserve what they are suffering and He will not - and they will understand that fully as will all creatures in the age to come.

He will continue to love them while in the pain of Hell just as He did when He laid down His life to atone for their sins.

IMO - one of the biggest misunderstanding which so called 5-point Calvinist Christians have is the doctrine that says Christ could not have atoned for the sins of the lost if they suffer for those sins. IMO - they could well both suffer for those sins, together.

So long as there are alternative views concerning the atonement than the one espoused in "limited atonement" - I believe that their all too human logic is unwarranted as usually expressed by full on Calvinists in the doctrine of limited atonement. But - that's a subject for another thread.

God is not unjust for pouring out His wrath for eternity on sinners so long as - human and emotionally speaking only - He undergoes that same wrath as the one who subjected the world to sin.

*(Please- no lectures here about the sinless nature of God or about Him not being the author of sin or debates about His supposed lack of absolute sovereignty in all that happens in His creation.)

For those who would say that if God sovereignly subjected the world to evil through the sinful choices of men and angels - He has something to answer for --- I would simply say that He does and will answer for it (even though He did not do it directly Himself).

I am fully willing to believe all such a God tells me - whether I understand it all or not.

Of course there will always be those who will answer these mysteries simply by making God less than the sovereign of all that happens in His creation - just as there are those who say that He did not die for all sins. With all due respect to well meaning theologians both professional and amateur - you are both wrong. But, if it's OK with everyone, I don't want to debate those people now.

Much more could be said and probably should be said about these ideas so that there would be no misunderstandings.

But my simple answer to the OP is - yes, I believe God suffers for eternity for the sins of the world right along with unsaved mankind and rebellious angels.
 
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Hidden In Him

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God is not unjust for pouring out His wrath for eternity on sinners so long as - human and emotionally speaking only - He undergoes that same wrath as the one who subjected the world to sin...

For those who would say that if God sovereignly subjected the world to evil through the sinful choices of men and angels - He has something to answer for --- I would simply say that He does and will answer for it (even though He did not do it directly Himself)...

But my simple answer to the OP is - yes, I believe God suffers for eternity for the sins of the world right along with unsaved mankind and rebellious angels.

My goodness, brother! This is some astute theology, imho, and a clear-headed view of the All-Loving God. Especially expressed well with the following statement:
He will continue to love them while in the pain of Hell just as He did when He laid down His life to atone for their sins.

Many do not believe accounts of those who claim Jesus took them to Hell in spirit to see the abode of the damned. But the accounts are always the same: He is not indifferent to the sufferings of the wicked. He cries and weeps for them as He looks upon them, knowing what they could have been if they had only turned to Him, and chosen life over death.

He is a God of Love, past, present, and future, always and forever. Whether anyone believes in visions of Hell or not, how could they think He does not weep over those who rejected Him to their own destruction?

Profound post, Marvin Knox. Enjoyed reading it. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Marvin Knox

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Whether anyone believes in visions of Hell or not, how could they think He does not weep over those who rejected Him to their own destruction?
Jesus wept over Jerusalem because of her rejection of Him and it was a real heartfelt sorrow for the wrath coming to her for that rejection.

"Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes." Luke 19:41-42

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate" Matthew 23:37
 
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Monk Brendan

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Anguspure

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I think it is best not to compare your view of God with human relationships.
I disagree. It is God who sets the example. He created us in His image and then He inspired us to write at least 66 books that are full of descriptions of Him that use human relationship as analogues of His relationship to Him.
The ten commandments alone stand as one of the fullest expositions of how relationship with Him relates to human level relationships.
You would do anything you can to save your children from death.....even by force, if you had the power to.
Has He not?
This version makes is seem like the love of humans is greater than the love of God....which is not possible.
No human father I know of even comes close to what He has done. No human father has ever been caught in the dichotomy between universal justice and perfect Love.
It is best to leave it as This......Take this good news, which is only salvation from bad news......as i have no good news unless I can get you to believe there is bad news first....to be saved from.
In my experience those who really do not regard death as bad news enough have hearts that are so hard that they are unlikely to be swayed by the fairy tales of 1st century simpletons.
When anyone tries to examine, tell them, Gods ways are not ours and we cant understand them, and that the creation has no right to judge creator. And hope people believe this until they die.....until there is no chance for them to find any other truth and follow it.


Adding anything else will only complicate things. Another helpful statement would be to make others believe that the very ask of questioning could also remove the good news and leave only the bad.

This is interesting.......with these things in mind.......if we were to meet a stranger who knows nothing about religion and witness to them. We will have to first teach them about a Devil and Hell and Death....or there wouldnt even be a gospel. So before we met them, they were happy and joyous living life........and after hearing from us they will be in fear Running for their lives and running from death(or running to this "Good News" depending on how you want to look at it.)
I think we can do better than that and seek enough understanding of our Father that we can supply good explanations, at least by analogy, to those who ask. This, after all is what Paul desired that we should do.
 
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RaymondG

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I disagree. It is God who sets the example. He created us in His image and then He inspired us to write at least 66 books that are full of descriptions of Him that use human relationship as analogues of His relationship to Him.
The ten commandments alone stand as one of the fullest expositions of how relationship with Him relates to human level relationships.

Has He not?

No human father I know of even comes close to what He has done. No human father has ever been caught in the dichotomy between universal justice and perfect Love.

In my experience those who really do not regard death as bad news enough have hearts that are so hard that they are unlikely to be swayed by the fairy tales of 1st century simpletons.

I think we can do better than that and seek enough understanding of our Father that we can supply good explanations, at least by analogy, to those who ask. This, after all is what Paul desired that we should do.
You are too wise for further conversation to be fruitful. Good luck to you
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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I'm just throwing this out here to ponder on....

it is written that there will be no more sorrow and tears in heaven.

What might this mean?

The kingdom of Heaven is within...cannot be found by observation outside of that. When we no longer have duality within, becoming One/singleness of eye, and enter in to recline at the table, there is peace, joy and LOVE without end. "I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Which has everything to do with the question "Where art thou?" God asked in the garden and being reconciled (back). Perspective or perceiving by spirit or self-soul.
 
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brinny

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The kingdom of Heaven is within...cannot be found by observation outside of that. When we no longer have duality within, becoming One/singleness of eye, and enter in to recline at the table, there is peace, joy and LOVE without end. "I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Which has everything to do with the question "Where art thou?" God asked in the garden and being reconciled (back). Perspective or perceiving by spirit or self-soul.

Good grief! That's quite profound.

No WONDER we have that duality within. There are warring factions going at each other.

That's deep, that the kingdom of heaven is within.

i think i need to pray about this BIG TIME. Cuz i sure do need it.

That's a lot to think about.

Thanks.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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Good grief! That's quite profound.

No WONDER we have that duality within. There are warring factions going at each other.

That's deep, that the kingdom of heaven is within.

i think i need to pray about this BIG TIME. Cuz i sure do need it.

That's a lot to think about.

Thanks.

No thanks necessary. ;) Seek and ye shall find. He can only give us what we can see..."But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
 
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brinny

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No thanks necessary. ;) Seek and ye shall find. He can only give us what we can see..."But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

That's quite wunnerful, isn't it? :)
 
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GTW27

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The kingdom of Heaven is within...cannot be found by observation outside of that. When we no longer have duality within, becoming One/singleness of eye, and enter in to recline at the table, there is peace, joy and LOVE without end. "I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Which has everything to do with the question "Where art thou?" God asked in the garden and being reconciled (back). Perspective or perceiving by spirit or self-soul.

And when we no longer have duality within, we no longer are about "self" but become about "others" This is when He truly reigns in us. This is when there is peace, joy and Love without end. when we become about "others" we will weep for them, and be willing to lay down our lives for them, as He did for us.
 
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RDKirk

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Trying to wrap my head around this...God is pained by the fact that many will go to hell. Eternal hell. So, does that mean that God will forever feel pain? In a sense, will God suffer emotionally for eternity because He will forever be aware of those in hell, whom He loves, suffering for eternity?

He's an adult. He can handle it.
 
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