will God still forgive me?

omslaw

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:confused: Hi guys..i am new in this site and i dont know if this is the right place to post this question..so please dont hate..:sorry:

Ayt..heres the thing.. I am doing a sin for like almost half of my entire life..I am even a Pastor kid..so that makes things worse.. I keep on repenting and doing the sin ive made and i wanna fully let go of it..it just like a cycle..and i am getting afraid that one day God will be tired to help and forgive me..just like the story in the bible where God gets tired of waiting and knocking in his/her door and when the person realizes that God was there waiting at his/her door, He was gone.. I really need some advice and prayer.. I wanna put an end to this..

Thank you and Godbless everyone..
-Ray
 

hedrick

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Yes, the congregational forums such as this are the right place to ask this. Be aware however that this is a forum specifically for Presbyterians and other confessional Reformed Christians. Your icon says you're a Pentecostal. In this case you should get the same answer from both, but that may not always be true. There's also an "ask the chaplain" group that could be relevant.

Of course God isn't going to get tired of you. That's the whole point of Jesus saying that we have to forgive 70x7 times. This does *not* mean that on the 491st time you're doomed. I suspect you're speaking of Luke 13:25. Given the next few verses this is almost certainly speaking of the last judgement, not of God getting tired of our failures.

I don't want to suggest that it's OK to sin. It's not. But you'll be engaged in a continuing battle with it. Most people have continuing sins. It's not hopeless. With God's help people do escape from sins. But it may take years, and no one that I know of escapes from them all.

In the meantime it's important not to lose faith in God, and not to let your problems consume your attention. God will use even imperfect people to help others.

As in so many other areas, it's a matter of balance. There are two equally serious problems: saying sin doesn't matter, and saying that you're so bad that you're hopeless. Christ's death is sufficient for anyone.
 
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hedrick

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On second thought, you might actually get a slightly different response from some Pentecostals. Many Pentecostals are part of the Holiness movement. It is common in that tradition to believe in "entire sanctification." It's possible that someone growing up in the Holiness tradition could feel that if they still have problems with sin, that they haven't fully received the Holy Spirit.

First, Reformed Christians don't think entire sanctification happens commonly (or at all) during this life, although we do think that with God's help we can make progress against sin. Second, normally entire sanctification is seen as a second blessing after salvation, so someone who is still struggling with sin shouldn't feel that their salvation is in jeopardy, as long as they have faith in Christ.
 
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Starpuppy

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I agree with Hedrick

I feel that it does not matter if you were the pastor son or the president son, as each of us is a unique creation in the eyes of God and its human to sin Romans 3:23)

Romans 3:23 (NIV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


As long as your truely want to change for the better and is sincere for it, He will forgive you for He knows our perfect image and He knows that it is not a overnight change, a flawed gem needs to be changed over time and works to become a perfect gem

(Psalms 32:2)(NIV)
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE]Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no decei[/FONT]
 
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Basil the Great

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When I was age 8, my very religious Baptist Great Grandfather lived with us for two months before he died at age 83. He was probably the most devout Christian that I have ever known. Mom says that Great Grampa rarely, if ever, got angry with another person. I distinctly remember asking Grampa the same question you have posed and his answer was that God would NOT forgive us if we keep sinning the same sin over and over again. However, Grampa did not elaborate, so I am not sure if he meant that habitual sin could cost a Christian his or her salvation and I must say that looking back now, his response seems to run counter to what most Baptists and most Protestants believe. While he was a Baptist for much of his life, he was not raised a Baptist and his maternal grandparents grew up as Mennonites. It is quite possible that his view re: habitual sin was passed on down to him from his maternal grandparents.

Now about 38 years later, I told this story to his daughter, my Great Aunt, who was my grandmother's sister. My Great Aunt was also very devout, possibly as much as her father, my Great Grandfather. She smiled at me when I told her what her dad had said to me and she said that she did not think that Grampa's answer was Scriptural. Perhaps my Aunt's answer was correct, but I am not so sure.

I do not believe we can know for certain how God will judge any of us. Now it is true that Jesus talked about us needing to forgive others 70 x 7 times and we can hope that this means that God's forgiveness is limitless, but it is also true that Jesus talked about many being surprised on Judgment Day re: who will be saved and who will not be saved and that He will turn to many and say, "I never knew you". However, I find it hard to believe that God will condemn Christians who really do try to overcome sin.

I think the best we can do is try and be sincere re: our efforts to overcome sin and if we continue endlessly to fail, then maybe we better make sure that we go the extra mile in feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, as Jesus seemed to put a very high importance upon the need for us to show love to others, especially the less fortunate. Perhaps, just perhaps, God might be more likely to forgive us our habitual sins, if we go the extra mile in showing love towards the poor and the downtrodden souls of this world.

p.s. - I also agree that the matter of being a pastor's son is really not relevant to the issue of God's forgiveness. God bless you, Ray.
 
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omslaw

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:clap: Thank you guys for the replies.. I am truly blessed and thankful to read these encouraging comments...Please do keep me in your prayers guys as i do the same.. Me and my family is currently facing some financial problems..BUT i know our God is the source of everything and i know he will never abandon his children..

God bless guys..

one more comment..i strongly believe that Religion has nothing to do with your way to heaven..I believe that you and your relationship with the Lord is important
 
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Starpuppy

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:clap: Thank you guys for the replies.. I am truly blessed and thankful to read these encouraging comments...Please do keep me in your prayers guys as i do the same.. Me and my family is currently facing some financial problems..BUT i know our God is the source of everything and i know he will never abandon his children..

God bless guys..

one more comment..i strongly believe that Religion has nothing to do with your way to heaven..I believe that you and your relationship with the Lord is important

I would agree with you but the other forum members wouldn't be so kind to agree with your views but what i do know that our God is almighty and i am rest assured that with HIm saving us, we will be going to Heaven :)

Heavenly Father, Lord in Heaven, i put Brother omslaw into your hands, guide this lost sheep back on to the right path, do not give up on him even it takes 10,20 or even 100 years, we know that You are a loving God and would never fail us in our darkest hour

Father, i put omslaw's family into your hands, please shine on them during this dark hour, omslaw father is a pastor and he is doing Your word, give them strength to overcome this dark times created by the devil and make the whole family stronger in faith.

I thank You
Amen
 
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hedrick

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I'm a bit concerned by the responses you've gotten. This group is specifically for confessional Reformed Christianity. And Reformed Christianity is quite clear that justification – our status before God as forgiven and living in Christ – is dependent entirely upon the fact that Christ died for us. God calls us without regard to any merit, and he maintains us through his grace. Of course the purpose of this is to regenerate us. But while we're on this earth, God isn't through with us, and if we find ourselves doing something we ought not to, our response is to repent and to be confident that God has better in store for us, even if we get impatient and frustrated with ourselves and him.

Basil the great says: "I do not believe we can know for certain how God will judge any of us." I think this is right in theory but wrong in practice. It's right in theory because we can't tell by looking whether someone is saved or not. But it's wrong in practice because on a personal level it is wrong to doubt our salvation because of anything we do. We know for certain that God will preserve all of his people. Now I understand that sin may lead some people to doubt that they are actually one of God's people. But I think that is wrong. You should definitely be concerned about sin, but you should be concerned because you love God and your fellow man, and you do not want to pile yet another sin on Christ's back to bear. You should not be concerned that God will abandon you in your sin.
 
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I agree with Hedrick.
May I also add that I had the same problem. Even though I named the name of Christ, I kept falling into the "lust" trap. This ended last March when God made several changes in me...
1) I was able to realize that, even though a longstanding Fundamental Baptist of the strictest sect (like the Apostle Paul) I was probably not converted. The Holy Spirit opened the Scripture in Jeremiah 15:6 "Thou hast forsaken Me,saith the Lord,thou art gone backward; therefore will I stretch out My hand against thee and destroy thee;I am weary with repenting." I knew SOMETHING was wrong because I kept falling into the trap and then repenting then falling into the trap...And repenting without actually forsaking the sin by God's grace is not Biblical repentence!
2)I read "The Way of the Master" by Mr.Ray Comfort.This gave more realization that I might have been a false convert. His book "True and False Conversions" was the last nail.
3)I found a place of repentence and forsook the sin , and made Jesus Christ Supreme Ruler in my life.
WHAT A DIFFERENCE!
Also heard about the Reformed Movement and started going to a Reformed Baptist Church in Virginia Beach. WOW!

Another real informative article you should read is "Is Christ Your Lord?" by A.W.Pink. You can "Google" it up and read it in five minutes.

But of course all I can do is tell YOU what happened to ME!

Julian of York
Revelations 4:11"Thou are worthy,O Lord ,to receive glory and honor and power;for Thou hast created all things;and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
 
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Samuel Coleridge

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:confused: Hi guys..i am new in this site and i dont know if this is the right place to post this question..so please dont hate..:sorry:

Ayt..heres the thing.. I am doing a sin for like almost half of my entire life..I am even a Pastor kid..so that makes things worse.. I keep on repenting and doing the sin ive made and i wanna fully let go of it..it just like a cycle..and i am getting afraid that one day God will be tired to help and forgive me..just like the story in the bible where God gets tired of waiting and knocking in his/her door and when the person realizes that God was there waiting at his/her door, He was gone.. I really need some advice and prayer.. I wanna put an end to this..

Thank you and Godbless everyone..
-Ray

What did your pastor Dad say?:thumbsup:
 
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file13

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While we're on this topic, wouldn't John Owen's "Of the Mortification of Sin in Believers" be considered to be a good source for more information on the life long struggle with sin from a Reformed POV?

If so (or not!), what other sources would you guys recommend? Thanks!
 
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hedrick

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While we're on this topic, wouldn't John Owen's "Of the Mortification of Sin in Believers" be considered to be a good source for more information on the life long struggle with sin from a Reformed POV?

If so (or not!), what other sources would you guys recommend? Thanks!

I just scanned through Owen. His work is considered classic. I don't see anything in it that I'd consider wrong, but I'm not sure how helpful it really will be. I'm not sure he says much more than "try real hard" and "if you pray enough God will help you." Both of these are true, but the approach worries me.

1) I suspect you've already done much of it.

2) Although Owen doesn't intend it this way, I think the approach is largely negative. I'm just not convinced that focusing on sin is a good way to get rid of it. I think it may be better to focus on Christ, and on doing the right things that he is leading you into doing, rather than not doing the wrong things. You want to replace wrong attitudes with right attitudes and practices.

3) God operates in his own time. While it's not clear what 2 Cor 12:7 is about, it could certainly be about some kind of habitual sin.

4) He doesn't emphasize something that others here have already mentioned: don't try to do this in isolation. Find a friend or a mentor you can talk to on a regular basis. And not one who is too strongly into a legalistic or negative approach.

Sorry, I don't have a specific recommendation. In traditional Christian practice, it's unlikely that problems of this kind would be resolved by reading something. it's normally something that a confessor would have dealt with in person. (And despite someone's comment, it almost certainly shouldn't be your father.)
 
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file13

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Thanks for the comments hedrick! I've never read the book so I don't have anything to say one way or another about it. I've seen it recommended elsewhere in an updated form and was curious what others thought about it.

But I think I smell what you're stepping in though about obsessing over sin, which is actually why I was curious about what Presbyterians/Reformed Christians might think about it. Coming from my old tradition, the idea of a manual on "overcoming sin" in a monergistic tradition struck me as bizarre to begin with. Not of course that your tradition endorses antinomianism (and I'm not endorsing it either), but it does seem strange. Maybe I'm missing Owen's real point though and I'm sure I'd have to read him to get it if so. :)
 
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hedrick

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Thanks for the comments hedrick! I've never read the book so I don't have anything to say one way or another about it. I've seen it recommended elsewhere in an updated form and was curious what others thought about it.

But I think I smell what you're stepping in though about obsessing over sin, which is actually why I was curious about what Presbyterians/Reformed Christians might think about it. Coming from my old tradition, the idea of a manual on "overcoming sin" in a monergistic tradition struck me as bizarre to begin with. Not of course that your tradition endorses antinomianism (and I'm not endorsing it either), but it does seem strange. Maybe I'm missing Owen's real point though and I'm sure I'd have to read him to get it if so. :)

I agree that it's kind of interesting. There are two theological issues involved in sin: (1) justification by faith; whether you're Reformed or not, all Protestants would say that you salvation is determined by whether you follow Christ, not specific sins (2) predestination; lots of people think that means that it doesn't matter what you do. So I can see why people might believe that Reformed folk might not battle sin.

However, historically the Puritans (the main Reformed tradition from which US Presbyterianism came) were just as concerned about sin as any other Christian tradition, and more than some. Owen is from that background.

Second, I'm not sure how much predestination matters on a day to day basis. Sure, God's plan says whether you've saved or not. But you don't know whether you're elect. God's plan works out through "secondary causes." That is, when God wants to save someone, he makes sure that they hear the Gospel and respond to it. Their response involves their will, even though the will is moved by God.

Note that Owen warns people that sin tends to lead us away from God. People don't tend to fall away at once. Rather, it tends to happen slowly, moving further and further away. It's not that there's one big unforgiveable sin, but that sin tends to desensitize us to God's voice, and over time we can end up losing faith. And if you don't have faith, you're not justified. Now if you look at things from God's point of view, when this happens it's someone who wasn't ever part of the elect, and that fact is working itself out in history. But we can't see God's plan, at least not in this life. And if God is moving us to be concerned about our relationship with him, part of our response is going to be a concern to keep our relationship in good shape by following his will.

But there's one other aspect. Christianity isn't just about saving our butts. Christ is our redeemer. And redemption means not just papering over sin, but actually dealing with it. The Reformed ordo salutis says that Christ dies for us, God unites us to Christ, we receive that in faith, and that produces two results: justification, which is our status as proper followers of Christ, and sanctification, which is our process of living and developing as Christians, including repentance and growing in Christ. I have argued elsewhere that while our justification – our status as God's people – doesn't depend upon our success at having defeated sin, defeating sin is actually the final purpose of redemption. So justification is the ground upon which the progressive defeat of sin is built. In my opinion someone who isn't concerned about sin either doesn't have faith at all or at least has seriously missed the point of Christ dying for them. Faith is more than intellectual belief. It includes a personal commitment, which in this case I'd say includes a commitment to obey. Not the actual obedience, but the basic orientation from which the obedience comes. And 1 Cor 3:13 ff suggests that sins do have consequences in eternity, even if they don't result in damnation.

But there may still be a difference in attitude. I don't feel that I have to get rid of every sin in order to be saved. I feel I'm God's son, and I'm confident that he won't abandon me, even if I sin. But I also know that he cares what I do. And because I love him, and I'm thankful for what he has done, I am committed to following him. Sin isn't just violating an arbitrary set of rules. It actually causes problems. And as a Christian I want to be as good a servant as possible. I'd rather see you take that viewpoint. The point isn't that you should live in fear that your sin is going to damn you. It's that you should love God and your neighbor. And sexual sin indicates a problem with how you think of or relate to women (or men, depending upon the nature of what it is). As a follower of Christ that's something that should concern you. But I'd rather see your attitude be "I want to be as effective a follower of Christ as possible, and I see that I need to develop better relationships with women" rather than "if I don't get rid of this sin I'm going to end up in hell." That's part of why I suggested a positive approach. I'd rather see you ask, "just how should I be thinking of women, and why did God give me the gift of sex in the first place?" rather than "how do I keep from thinking of this thing?" – something that sounds a bit too much like "I dare you not to think of pink unicorns for the next minute." Not to mention that I'd like you to focus on Christ and how to be his servant rather than on your sin, although clearly these are related.

Part of this includes assessing what actually matters. There are certain sexual issues that, even if they actually are sins, may well not be the highest priority issue in your life.* If you've ever read Screwtape Letters, one of the things that one of his tempters would absolutely love is to get his victim to obsess about something that, while possibly undesirable, causes them to completely miss more serious problems in their lives, as well as lots of opportunities to serve God just as they are. But this depends upon you – there are certainly sexual sins that can really mess up your life, and that of people around you.

Now it may be that this won't always work. E.g. it appears that alcoholics have to be almost fanatical about avoiding alcohol. If you are in a situation that's analogous to that, my comments may not entirely apply. But the concern should still be that alcohol is ruining your life and your ability to do what God intends you to do, and God wants you to be free of it, not that God is going to throw you into hell because of it.

––––––

* Note that I come from the liberal side of the Reformed tradition. In my opinion some of the things that people think are sexual sins really aren't. That includes one specific thing that typically tends to bother many (maybe most) teens and young adults. However for purposes of this discussion I'm assuming that what you're concerned about is actually wrong. In some sense if you think it is, it can be a problem for you even if I wouldn't agree.
 
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file13

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What you've said seems to match the impression I've gotten from reading the Puritan prayers in the Valley of Vision and what I've read about Owen (from J.I. Packer). Of course, these are inferences so of course I could be way off here. I'm not really sure if the specific mention of sexual sins is in reference to the original poster's questions or in regards to Owen's writings, but I think there's no doubt that the whole subject of sexual sins is much more complex than we might want it to be, especially in a culture which is inundated with sex.

As usual, thanks for the comments hedrick! :thumbsup:
 
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Kennesaw42

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There is a slightly older thread on this forum entitled "How should young men deal with masturbation?" which I think you should read through. Hedrick also posts on that thread, and, while I find his comments usually spot-on, I disagree with him on the subject of masturbation. Please see especially the comments of AMR in post #6 and my comments in post #7 where I emphasize James 5:16 and the peril of trying to deal with besetting (addictive) sins by ourself.

I worked my way painstakingly through Owen on Mortification of Sin back when I was still in my late 20s or early 30s, and found that it really did nothing more than aggravate my sense of guilt and shame.

I was in a church at the time which preached thunderously against sin, where our salvation was constantly called into question from the pulpit, with almost no encouragement given at all. There was no joy in my life (and in the lives of many in the church).

But Christ came not only to die for our sins (after convicting us of the guilt of them by his Spirit), but also to make us joyful in his salvation and service.

John 15:11 is the classic verse on joy: "These things have I spoken unto you that my joy might remain in you and that your joy might be full." But look up "joy" in a concordance and you will find many more similarly encouraging passages.

One of the questions in the Westminster Catechism is "What is the chief end of man?" The answer given is: "Man's chief end is to fear God and enjoy him forever (my emphasis)."

I am going to post this now and pray for you, as one who has been where you are, or, rather, since my addiction to sexual sin was so pervasive, as one who has been in a far worse position.

May you know the joy of following our Lord, and find much refreshment from Him as you employ the means of grace (bible reading, prayer, preaching, communion, etc.) and particularly as you join yourself in communion with other Christian men, all of whom struggle with sin in one form or another.
 
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file13

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I worked my way painstakingly through Owen on Mortification of Sin back when I was still in my late 20s or early 30s, and found that it really did nothing more than aggravate my sense of guilt and shame.
Hi Kennesaw42! I know most of your comment is directed at the OP, but regarding Owen aggravating your sense of guilt and shame, correct me if wrong, but isn't that precisely his point? I.e. to keep us aware of of sins, our need of a savior, and thus, to keep us eternally grateful, joyous, and overwhelmed by God's love for us, which in turn, urges us to fight against sin more ardently because of our love for our adopted Father?

Again, I've never read Owen's book so I'm making mass ASS-U-MEptions here, but from the Puritan prayers in The Valley of Vision I was under the impression that they intentionally keep their sins before their eyes to keep them eternally grateful that they're saved by grace through faith and thus don't have to fear. Maybe I'm mistaken here, but when I read Reformed spirituality (at least what I've encountered so far), this is the exactly what it seems like to me and based on the monergistic theology, it dosen't seem it could be any other way if you're on board with Calvin and agree that this doctrine is a great comfort rather than a call to perpetually worry about being elect. In other words, it seems like a logical spiritual response to this doctrine. Of course, folks like Owen (or me!) could also just be plain wrong. But I never get the sense that the Puritan authors I'm acquainted with are saying that we should perpetually worry about our salvation, but simply see in our everyday sins, even as we try to overcome them by the grace of God, that in spite of sin, Christ loved us, chose them, and saved us based on no works of our own. Of course, I'm also sure your experience of what sounds like a preacher who taught 99% law and 1% Gospel that perhaps it could have left a bad taste in your mouth...which would make it essential to insure that we truly understand the Gospel to begin with before worrying about our life long sanctification. After all, if we don't know the Gospel, if we don't know grace, the Law will simply do it's job and keep us in a perpetual state of shame and guilt, but with no relief in sight....

But again, it could just be that I'm just plain wrong. :D
 
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Kennesaw42

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The church I mentioned was not OP (although I've attended several OP churches and have high regard for the denomination), but rather Reformed Baptist.

If Owen's Mortification helps you, I am glad for it. I was personally helped more by Owen's writings on Christology; he gave me an enhanced appreciation for how perfectly qualified Christ is to be our Redeemer.

Nor is it my intent to minimize the heinousness of sin; far from it.

There has to be, even as you seem to suggest (reading between the lines), a balance between Law and Grace, between preaching that convicts of sin and that which applies copious measures of the balm of Gilead.
 
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file13

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The church I mentioned was not OP (although I've attended several OP churches and have high regard for the denomination), but rather Reformed Baptist.
Oh no, by OP, I meant "original poster." I.e. I'm not the original poster of the original question and so I assumed that what most of what you were saying was directed at the OP, aka, the original poster. Sorry for the confusion! While we're on it, what Church goes by "OP"? :confused:

And again, I'm no Owen fan boy (I've never read him so really don't have an opinion of him!), but as someone new to Reformed beliefs, it seemed like my question about his work would be relevant to the original posters' question about sin since the little I've read about the spiritual ancestors of the Presbyterians has (much to my surprise I should add) been very helpful and eye opening. :)

But amen brother, about not minimizing the seriousness of sin and sorry for the confusion. I probably should have asked my question as a separate post and my apologies to the OP (original poster) for inadvertently hijacking your thread. :doh:
 
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