Will God admit people who are religious but racist into heaven?

[RDKirk]

He is saying (I think) that blacks have this bad name as having a gangster type culture and he hates that, BUT he does not hate blacks. Kind of like what I said I respect anyone ( no matter their race) who has proven that are trustworthy and have good charcter however I do NOT trust anyone ( no matter their race) who have proven to be of questionable moral charcter. It is just that blacks have that bad name. I was bullied/abused by a black and I have also worked with a black who was very professional and a good employee. I hired her to help me at school she showed up on time let me know when she was not going to be there and made arrangements if that were going to be the case. I have had black instructors who were fair and treated me with respect. The fact that they were black did not bother me because they did their job they did it well and treated all of the students fairly. See it is not the color that matters, but their charcter

I know a lot of black people--I've been knowing a lot of black people all my life.

I don't know a single black person--not a single one out of hundreds--who is part of "thug gangster culture" thing. Not a single one.

Now, granted, I've never spent any time in any "black urban areas"....and I don't know that very many people in this thread have either. I did get held up at gunpoint twice in 72 hours when I was stationed in Washington DC in the late 80s.

So what I know about it is as much as most in this thread know about it, perhaps more than some.

And yet, it does not occur to me that the color of the skin mean anything like that.

Clothing, maybe. People choose clothing to display their character, so I consider clothing to matter. But I would not consider for a moment that a black man in "business casual" is a gangster.

 

[Lion King]

I know a lot of black people--I've been knowing a lot of black people all my life.

I don't know a single black person--not a single one out of hundreds--who is part of "thug gangster culture" thing. Not a single one.

Now, granted, I've never spent any time in any "black urban areas"....and I don't know that very many people in this thread have either. I did get held up at gunpoint twice in 72 hours when I was stationed in Washington DC in the late 80s.

So what I know about it is as much as most in this thread know about it, perhaps more than some.

And yet, it does not occur to me that the color of the skin mean anything like that.

Clothing, maybe. People choose clothing to display their character, so I consider clothing to matter. But I would not consider for a moment that a black man in "business casual" is a gangster.

Is it wise to judge by outward appearance?

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Is it wise to judge by outward appearance?

Judge, no. Guess, maybe sometimes.

People DO choose elements of their outward appearance, such as extremes in looks, in order to make a statement. I don't think they have any right to then be offended by people's responses when that statement they're trying to make comes through loud and clear. "I deliberately dressed this way to look intimidating, and now she's intimidated. She must be a racist." That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

How can someone be sincere in the LORD and hate their neighbor at the same time? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Can one serve God and the devil at the same time?

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35

If you had read the rest of my post, instead of just the one opening sentence, you would not have needed to ask about it. I was talking about people who sincerely don't know any better than to be racist. That isn't the same thing as hate. Not at all.

 

[RDKirk]

If you had read the rest of my post, instead of just the one opening sentence, you would not have needed to ask about it. I was talking about people who sincerely don't know any better than to be racist. That isn't the same thing as hate. Not at all.

The actual sin is bigotry, of which racism is only one form. This is the bigotry that the early church faced between the Hellenist-Jewish believers and the Hebraic-Jewish believers, then later between the Greek believers and the Hellenist-Jewish believers. Racism falls under the same prohibition as "Neither Greek nor Jew."

He "may not have known any better" with regard to racism just as he may not have known any better with regard to any sin. There are people who literally do not know any better with regard to premarital sex, for instance. You go to other countries with varied native cultures, and there are lots of "may not know any better" issues.

The proper teaching of the gospel and the proper relationships in the Body of Christ should work those out. If he was taught by his culture to be prejudiced against black people, or white people or Japanese or whatever, meeting any of those people as fellow members of the Body of Christ should drive that out.

Like most military men out of the 1970s, I used to hate the heck out of Jane Fonda for her anti-war activities in the late 60s and 70s. I hated her for 30 years. Then she became a Christian and the Holy Spirit drove that hate out of me.

If a person refuses to allow the Holy Spirit to drive out that hate--if he searches for justification for his hate, if he even concocts scriptural reasons for that hate, then he's clinging to his sin willfully just like anyone else willfully clinging to a sin such as homosexuality or promiscuity.

 

[RDKirk]

Is it wise to judge by outward appearance?

Is it wise to judge by verbal statement? If someone glares at you on the street and says to you, "I'm tough. I'm bad. You don't want none of this! Don't mess with me or I'll mess you up!"--what is your response to that? Do you take him at his word, at least tentatively?

Clothing is communication: People dress to communicate, and it's reasonable to believe what they're telling you.

Now, I'll grant that some people are ignorant of what they're saying with their clothing, and some people appear to believe that what they say with their clothing should be ignored. But that's not actually reasonable.

Comedian Chris Rock jokes: "If I put on a policeman uniform, somebody might mistake me for a policeman and come up to me asking for help. I gotta admit that it's not their fault they made that mistake, 'cause I'm in the uniform of a policeman. So ladies, if you dress like a 'ho' and somebody makes the mistake of thinking you're a 'ho,' it's not their fault 'cause you're wearing the uniform of a 'ho'."

 

[Lion King]

Judge, no. Guess, maybe sometimes.

People DO choose elements of their outward appearance, such as extremes in looks, in order to make a statement. I don't think they have any right to then be offended by people's responses when that statement they're trying to make comes through loud and clear. "I deliberately dressed this way to look intimidating, and now she's intimidated. She must be a racist." That doesn't make sense to me.

Where I'm from, we call that prejudice.

Why assume someone is a thug/gangster etc just by the way they dress? Personally speaking, that's one of the things that wrong with the world; people are too quick to judge without even getting to know the person.

Just because someone wears baggy clothing and listens to hip hop music, it doesn't mean they want to rob or rape people. Just because someone is a Goth does not mean they are devil worshippers or suicidal.

I am thankful the LORD does not care about outward appearances one bit and judges solely on our thoughts and actions.

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

 

[Lion King]

If you had read the rest of my post, instead of just the one opening sentence, you would not have needed to ask about it. I was talking about people who sincerely don't know any better than to be racist. That isn't the same thing as hate. Not at all.

I read all your post, and I strongly disagree with your notion that ignorance somehow excuses sin.

If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible. Leviticus 5:17

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Where I'm from, we call that prejudice.

Why assume someone is a thug/gangster etc just by the way they dress? Personally speaking, that's one of the things that wrong with the world; people are too quick to judge without even getting to know the person.

Just because someone wears baggy clothing and listens to hip hop music, it doesn't mean they want to rob or rape people. Just because someone is a Goth does not mean they are devil worshippers or suicidal.

I am thankful the LORD does not care about outward appearances one bit and judges solely on our thoughts and actions.

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

Oh, I quite agree with you. What I don't understand (hoping to be enlightened here) is why someone would choose to look a certain way, if they don't want it thought that they are that way. If you (general, generic "you") don't want people to think you're a thug, why would you deliberately dress like one?

Again, I am talking extremes. In particular, I'm thinking about a man who used to live around here, who had his hair in a huge colorful mohawk, complete with the piercings, tattoos, and stretched earlobes. When that didn't garner enough disapproval, he took to cross-dressing along with it. But people didn't object enough to that either, so his female clothes became skimpier and skimpier until he was bordering on indecent exposure, and then when someone finally told him to cover up, he would holler about his rights to self-expression being violated. Point being, his look became more and more outrageous until someone finally did say something to him about his appearance, because his game all along was to play "society hates me," and he wasn't going to stop until he actually did run up against objection.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Lion King

Is it wise to judge by outward appearance?
​

Judge, no. Guess, maybe sometimes.

People DO choose elements of their outward appearance, such as extremes in looks, in order to make a statement.
I don't think they have any right to then be offended by people's responses when that statement they're trying to make comes through loud and clear. "I deliberately dressed this way to look intimidating, and now she's intimidated. She must be a racist."
That doesn't make sense to me.

What she said!

Galatians 4:3 Thus also when we were babes under the elements/stoiceia <4747> of the world were in servitude,

2 Peter 3:12 Expecting and hastening the parousia of the day of God, thru which heavens being fired shall be being dissolved
and elements/stoiceia <4747> burning being melted. [Revelation 18:8,12]

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I read all your post, and I strongly disagree with your notion that ignorance somehow excuses sin.

If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible. Leviticus 5:17

The difference being, whether the racism is motivated by hate or by ignorance. Hate is a sin. Merely being misinformed is a different story. God knows what the person will do with the correct information when it comes.

To give an example, it so happens we have a man from our church doing some work on our house right now. It's what he does for a living. Our church brother is black. If my grandparents were alive now, they would have two different reactions. My grandfather would be advising me to watch him carefully and not let him steal anything. If it were his own house, our church brother wouldn't even be allowed inside. No question, my grandfather was racist.

My grandmother would speak to our church brother, would shake his hand, would let him inside, would be perfectly polite, but would object to the fact that he is married to a white woman. Yes, my grandmother was racist too, but she didn't mean to be.

By the way, do you follow all of Leviticus, or do you only pull out certain isolated verses when you can use them to prove yourself right?

 

[Lion King]

Is it wise to judge by verbal statement? If someone glares at you on the street and says to you, "I'm tough. I'm bad. You don't want none of this! Don't mess with me or I'll mess you up!"--what is your response to that? Do you take him at his word, at least tentatively?

Clothing is communication: People dress to communicate, and it's reasonable to believe what they're telling you.

Now, I'll grant that some people are ignorant of what they're saying with their clothing, and some people appear to believe that what they say with their clothing should be ignored. But that's not actually reasonable.

Comedian Chris Rock jokes: "If I put on a policeman uniform, somebody might mistake me for a policeman and come up to me asking for help. I gotta admit that it's not their fault they made that mistake, 'cause I'm in the uniform of a policeman. So ladies, if you dress like a 'ho' and somebody makes the mistake of thinking you're a 'ho,' it's not their fault 'cause you're wearing the uniform of a 'ho'."

Still it would be wise IMO to judge people by their actions and not their outward appearance. Judge by the fruit they produce...

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

The actual sin is bigotry, of which racism is only one form. This is the bigotry that the early church faced between the Hellenist-Jewish believers and the Hebraic-Jewish believers, then later between the Greek believers and the Hellenist-Jewish believers. Racism falls under the same prohibition as "Neither Greek nor Jew."

He "may not have known any better" with regard to racism just as he may not have known any better with regard to any sin. There are people who literally do not know any better with regard to premarital sex, for instance. You go to other countries with varied native cultures, and there are lots of "may not know any better" issues.

The proper teaching of the gospel and the proper relationships in the Body of Christ should work those out. If he was taught by his culture to be prejudiced against black people, or white people or Japanese or whatever, meeting any of those people as fellow members of the Body of Christ should drive that out.

Like most military men out of the 1970s, I used to hate the heck out of Jane Fonda for her anti-war activities in the late 60s and 70s. I hated her for 30 years. Then she became a Christian and the Holy Spirit drove that hate out of me.

If a person refuses to allow the Holy Spirit to drive out that hate--if he searches for justification for his hate, if he even concocts scriptural reasons for that hate, then he's clinging to his sin willfully just like anyone else willfully clinging to a sin such as homosexuality or promiscuity.

Well said. I am thinking here of Jesus Christ saying to the Pharisees in John 9:41, "If you were blind, you would have no sin." In context, the Pharisees claimed they knew full well what they were doing, which left them without excuse, but if they were merely ignorant, He could have set them straight, and everything would have been OK. Christ also prayed on the cross, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

My grandmother didn't hate people for being of a different race. She merely misunderstood and thought the Bible forbade interracial marriage. She was wrong, but I don't think I can call that the sin of bigotry, in her case. It isn't the same as spray-painting racial epithets on your neighbor's house, which would be hate and obviously a sin.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Still it would be wise IMO to judge people by their actions and not their outward appearance. Judge by the fruit they produce...

Again I agree with you. I once found a lady with those piercings, tattoos, and stretched earlobes to be a very pleasant character, intelligent, and fun to talk to. But I held back a little, initially, because of the way she chose to present herself. And I still don't know why someone would choose an extreme look, if they don't want to keep people at a distance that way.

 

[Lion King]

Oh, I quite agree with you. What I don't understand (hoping to be enlightened here) is why someone would choose to look a certain way, if they don't want it thought that they are that way. If you (general, generic "you") don't want people to think you're a thug, why would you deliberately dress like one?

Dress like one?

Is there a dress code for thugs? Do all thugs dress in a certain way?

Again, I am talking extremes. In particular, I'm thinking about a man who used to live around here, who had his hair in a huge colorful mohawk, complete with the piercings, tattoos, and stretched earlobes. When that didn't garner enough disapproval, he took to cross-dressing along with it. But people didn't object enough to that either, so his female clothes became skimpier and skimpier until he was bordering on indecent exposure, and then when someone finally told him to cover up, he would holler about his rights to self-expression being violated. Point being, his look became more and more outrageous until someone finally did say something to him about his appearance, because his game all along was to play "society hates me," and he wasn't going to stop until he actually did run up against objection.

Not sure what this example is supposed to mean.

Don't the US laws allow cross-dressing? If so, then that person is within their rights to dress however they like, though some may not agree with it.

 

[Lion King]

The difference being, whether the racism is motivated by hate or by ignorance. Hate is a sin. Merely being misinformed is a different story. God knows what the person will do with the correct information when it comes.

Do you think those who murdered Jews and heretics out of ignorance (thought they were doing the LORD's work) will not be held responsible for their sins at Judgement Day?

How about Christians who engage in sexual activities before marriage due to a lack of knowledge. Do you think they will be found innocent before God?

Be honest with me.

By the way, do you follow all of Leviticus, or do you only pull out certain isolated verses when you can use them to prove yourself right?

I follow parts that are relevant to me. Anyway, if you consider the OT to be irrelevant to Christians today, will the book of Romans suffice?

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God&#8217;s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people&#8217;s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2:12-16

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Dress like one?

Is there a dress code for thugs? Do all thugs dress in a certain way?

Saggy pants, worn by a kid on the street, are deliberately meant to convey the message, "I want to be thought of as a 'gangsta.'" Skin color is irrelevant. The clothing is worn by choice, because they want to give the signal of being "tough" and "intimidating." Then when people react exactly the way the clothing is designed to make them react, the person dressed in the baggy pants complains about being judged by outward appearance. Yeah, maybe we did judge you by outward appearance, but we made the exact assumption YOU WANTED US TO MAKE when you put those clothes on.

Not sure what this example is supposed to mean.

Don't the US laws allow cross-dressing? If so, then that person is within their rights to dress however they like, though some may not agree with it.

The cross dressing is not the issue. The issue is, when people didn't object to the cross dressing, he then went skimpier and skimpier until someone finally did object, so he could holler "victim." That was his game all along.

 

[dies-l]

Dress like one?

Is there a dress code for thugs? Do all thugs dress in a certain way?

Not sure what this example is supposed to mean.

Don't the US laws allow cross-dressing? If so, then that person is within their rights to dress however they like, though some may not agree with it.

How a person dresses conveys a message. Sometimes that message is "I want you to think/know that I am a 'thug'". If someone chooses to dress in clothes that convey this message, then that person shouldn't be shocked or offended when treated like a person who thinks of himself as a thug. Certainly, this doesn't mean that all "thugs" dress in that style. Some might even prefer a pinstripe suit, but usually because they are trying to convey a different message (e.g., "I am successful", "I am a 'legitimate businessman'", etc.)

 

[MJohn7]

How a person dresses conveys a message. Sometimes that message is "I want you to think/know that I am a

And sometimes people wear long robes.

 

[MJohn7]

Some people think less is more too, (more of what?) they dont even bother wearing much at all.