Will as Identity of God

[cloudyday2]

I had this thought that might solve some issues in Christology:
- Assume that there is some spiritual desire/will that affects our behavior within the constraints of determinism.
- Assume that the only non-physical attribute of a human is the will. In other words the will is the spirit/heart and everything else is the material body.
- Assume that Jesus was simply a normal human material body perfectly aligned to the will of God. There was nothing supernatural about Jesus at all. If Jesus accomplished miracles then these miracles would also be possible for any of us.

So it seems to me that this way of defining the spirit/heart (as will) explains how Jesus could be fully human and fully God, and it also explains how Christians can become fully human and fully God (theosis).

Also there is a difference between will and behavior. A person's will might wish for something but their body might be deterministically unable to follow that will. But the will is where sin is determined. A person who does the "right" thing out of obedience to a law but would not do that "right" thing if the law was absent is sinful. The Jewish Laws are only there to teach a person. By following the Laws hopefully a person will understand WHY the Laws are good through experience and contemplation and gradually align his/her will to God's will thus becoming less sinful.

Any opinions?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I had this thought that might solve some issues in Christology:
- Assume that there is some spiritual desire/will that affects our behavior within the constraints of determinism.
- Assume that the only non-physical attribute of a human is the will. In other words the will is the spirit/heart and everything else is the material body.
- Assume that Jesus was simply a normal human material body perfectly aligned to the will of God. There was nothing supernatural about Jesus at all. If Jesus accomplished miracles then these miracles would also be possible for any of us.

So it seems to me that this way of defining the spirit/heart (as will) explains how Jesus could be fully human and fully God, and it also explains how Christians can become fully human and fully God (theosis).

Also there is a difference between will and behavior. A person's will might wish for something but their body might be deterministically unable to follow that will. But the will is where sin is determined. A person who does the "right" thing out of obedience to a law but would not do that "right" thing if the law was absent is sinful. The Jewish Laws are only there to teach a person. By following the Laws hopefully a person will understand WHY the Laws are good through experience and contemplation and gradually align his/her will to God's will thus becoming less sinful.

Any opinions?

A lot of what you say seems to assume meaning to words or concepts that are pretty vague. I'm not sure, for example, what you mean by the words that stick in my throat: "...Christians can become fully human and fully God...". I'm hoping you don't mean by that what it feels like (to me) you mean.

I suppose you to include, for example, "thoughts" and "desires", within the word, "will" since you assume "will" to be the only non-physical attribute of a human.

Also, and not that you said so, but it seems implied by what you said, that Christ "became" fully God. I reject that. Likewise, I reject that his human body was normal in every way as ours, his being the result of the seed planted by the Spirit of God, and not by the normal descent of human lineage. He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam.

It seems a bit of hyperbole to say "There was nothing supernatural about Jesus at all." Otherwise, I think I do agree with your third "assume". I.e. I get your point and have thought much the same myself --that Christ accomplished all he did, not as God, but as a human dependent on God, just as we can do (though we don't). And this is not only a proof that he was God (in that he alone did what we can (but don't) do), but gives some definition to the nature of God --interdependence and thus unity, (maybe even interdependence because of unity), mundane efficiency in living a sinless life and in putting our sins on Christ instead of smiting sin with a huge supernatural hammer or something, the use of means, instead of more directly evident use of "power".

God's simplicity does not fit our minds.

 

[Robban]

I had this thought that might solve some issues in Christology:
- Assume that there is some spiritual desire/will that affects our behavior within the constraints of determinism.
- Assume that the only non-physical attribute of a human is the will. In other words the will is the spirit/heart and everything else is the material body.
- Assume that Jesus was simply a normal human material body perfectly aligned to the will of God. There was nothing supernatural about Jesus at all. If Jesus accomplished miracles then these miracles would also be possible for any of us.

So it seems to me that this way of defining the spirit/heart (as will) explains how Jesus could be fully human and fully God, and it also explains how Christians can become fully human and fully God (theosis).

Also there is a difference between will and behavior. A person's will might wish for something but their body might be deterministically unable to follow that will. But the will is where sin is determined. A person who does the "right" thing out of obedience to a law but would not do that "right" thing if the law was absent is sinful. The Jewish Laws are only there to teach a person. By following the Laws hopefully a person will understand WHY the Laws are good through experience and contemplation and gradually align his/her will to God's will thus becoming less sinful.

Any opinions?

What about this fellow?

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm not sure, for example, what you mean by the words that stick in my throat: "...Christians can become fully human and fully God...". I'm hoping you don't mean by that what it feels like (to me) you mean.

Humans according to Genesis were created in God's image, and I think that means that their wills were perfectly aligned to God's will. We can think of God as nothing but a will, so if our will matches God's will then we effectively become God. This is similar to Origens hypothesis that Jesus was a preexisting spirit (will) who through contemplation grew so close to God that he became identical to God while all other spirits grew away from God and became sinful in their desires. So the work of Christians is to align our wills/desires to God's will so that we become God in the same way that Jesus was God. If will is all there is that is non-physical then matching God's will is matching God. We don't need to be born of a virgin under a Christmas star to become God. Ideally the Church is a group of human bodies with one will/spirit - God. That is how the Church is the body of Christ.

A sin is not an evil deed. The evil deed is only like the dog poop that gives evidence that a dog was there in the past. Sin is in the present, because it is an area where our will does not match God's will. We become sinless not by asking forgiveness for the evil deeds past but by aligning our will to God's will. Good deeds and evil deeds are irrelevant; it is the will driving those deeds that determines sin. A sinless person might commit an "evil" deed if determinism gave that person's will no opportunity to choose (like a knee-jerk reaction). And a sinful person might commit a "good" deed for sinful reasons or for deterministic reasons.

Anyway, I don't want to ramble if it isn't making sense to anybody else.

I suppose you to include, for example, "thoughts" and "desires", within the word, "will" since you assume "will" to be the only non-physical attribute of a human.

I'm not sure if thoughts are physical or spiritual. I suspect they are mostly physical. A person can get brain damage and be unable to think. The will must exist in time for it to change and become aligned to God's will. Maybe there is only one will - God's will. Maybe the change and spiritual growth is entirely physical as our bodies become more receptive to God's will through learning and become less carnally motivated. So essentially humans are simply physical vessels that might reshape themselves to project God's will rather than muffle God's will.

 

[cloudyday2]

What about this fellow?

I feel a bit sorry for Rasputin. Apparently part of his unpopularity among the Russian aristocracy was due to his peasant upbringing. The aristocrats didn't like this country bumpkin's influence, and I guess he believed that God could be discovered through sexual indulgence followed by repentance or something. Apparently it was an actual practice among some Russian Orthodox monks similar to tantric yoga (?) I think Rasputin got a bad rap. He was out of his league among the back-stabbing Russian aristocrats.

 

[Robban]

I feel a bit sorry for Rasputin. Apparently part of his unpopularity among the Russian aristocracy was due to his peasant upbringing. The aristocrats didn't like this country bumpkin's influence, and I guess he believed that God could be discovered through sexual indulgence followed by repentance or something. Apparently it was an actual practice among some Russian Orthodox monks similar to tantric yoga (?) I think Rasputin got a bad rap. He was out of his league among the back-stabbing Russian aristocrats.

but there are similarities though.

When I read your post Rasputin came into my thoughts uninvited, haha.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We can think of God as nothing but a will, so if our will matches God's will then we effectively become God.

This is a side note, not really part of the discussion, but this jumped out at me. I often debate with Atheists and Agnostics, who are very quick to claim that First Cause, even Self-Existent First Cause (my usual words for "Creator") need not be, or have, a will. I agree with you here, at least in the fact that God is definitely of a will, if not will itself, though our concept of "will" must of course fall short.

 

[Robban]

This is a side note, not really part of the discussion, but this jumped out at me. I often debate with Atheists and Agnostics, who are very quick to claim that First Cause, even Self-Existent First Cause (my usual words for "Creator") need not be, or have, a will. I agree with you here, at least in the fact that God is definitely of a will, if not will itself, though our concept of "will" must of course fall short.

Maybe something that should be thought about.

Will, power of the will, willpower, "Triumph of the will"
last named was a theme for speeches given, you know who.

Third Reich, a thousand year Reich,
which even with the best of will lasted only twelve.

We and the world around us exist because the Almighty wills it.
Therefore we should strive to make His will our will.

Is a reasonable way to see it, would reckon.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Maybe something that should be thought about.

Will, power of the will, willpower, "Triumph of the will"
last named was a theme for speeches given, you know who.

Third Reich, a thousand year Reich,
which even with the best of will lasted only twelve.

We and the world around us exist because the Almighty wills it.
Therefore we should strive to make His will our will.

Is a reasonable way to see it, would reckon.

It almost sounds funny to say, that working against the will of the Almighty is a useless and dangerous thing, and likewise, that it behooves us to make His will our will.

It is ludicrous to work against the Almighty. Yet we do so often and in so many ways it is astounding. Thank God for his grace. Yet we don't understand quite what he is doing. For example, we like to think he is making us more holy and more glorifying to himself as we age in him, becoming more like him, etc. We think we know what that means, as if he couldn't glorify himself in us if we are disobedient.

I don't mean to denigrate the need for walking with God and for obedience --far be it from me to do so! But God says he is preparing a place for us, which, it turns out, is also his dwelling place. I am becoming increasingly convinced that where Christ went to Heaven to prepare a place for us --that we are that very construction. He is fitting us each for our specific place as members of the Bride of Christ --The very New Jerusalem. But, I could be wrong.

But I am convinced that what he is doing is not how we see it. It is incumbent upon us to obey, rather than to "figure out his will", or even "his plan".

 

[Robban]

It almost sounds funny to say, that working against the will of the Almighty is a useless and dangerous thing, and likewise, that it behooves us to make His will our will.

It is ludicrous to work against the Almighty. Yet we do so often and in so many ways it is astounding. Thank God for his grace. Yet we don't understand quite what he is doing. For example, we like to think he is making us more holy and more glorifying to himself as we age in him, becoming more like him, etc. We think we know what that means, as if he couldn't glorify himself in us if we are disobedient.

I don't mean to denigrate the need for walking with God and for obedience --far be it from me to do so! But God says he is preparing a place for us, which, it turns out, is also his dwelling place. I am becoming increasingly convinced that where Christ went to Heaven to prepare a place for us --that we are that very construction. He is fitting us each for our specific place as members of the Bride of Christ --The very New Jerusalem. But, I could be wrong.

But I am convinced that what he is doing is not how we see it. It is incumbent upon us to obey, rather than to "figure out his will", or even "his plan".

Is it not His will that we hear His voice, and do thereafter.

Agree it may not be as we think, thank God for that at times.

But it is like Him saying,
"This is what I want you to do."


If your wife wants you to help her change the curtains once a week,
you may not understand why.

"But heh, she,s my wife."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is it not His will that we hear His voice, and do thereafter.

Agree it may not be as we think, thank God for that at times.

But it is like Him saying,
"This is what I want you to do."


If your wife wants you to help her change the curtains once a week,
you may not understand why.

"But heh, she,s my wife."

Ha ha yes!

 

[dlamberth]

Any opinions?

I'm having the hardest time working with the assumptions given. I think mainly because rather than will, what I see as the spirit/heart of everything is consciousness. So for instance my take on Jesus is that He was conscious of both His Divinity as well has His Humanity. It's not something that He "willed" to happen. It's like a Tree that doesn't "will" itself to be a Tree. Or a Dog which doesn't will itself to be a Dog yet it's a Dog.

After that first light of conscious awareness of something, sin for instance, that's when will power comes into play, or not. But I don't see it as the spirit/heart of things.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm having the hardest time working with the assumptions given. I think mainly because rather than will, what I see as the spirit/heart of everything is consciousness. So for instance my take on Jesus is that He was conscious of both His Divinity as well has His Humanity. It's not something that He "willed" to happen. It's like a Tree that doesn't "will" itself to be a Tree. Or a Dog which doesn't will itself to be a Dog yet it's a Dog.

After that first light of conscious awareness of something, sin for instance, that's when will power comes into play, or not. But I don't see it as the spirit/heart of things.

I don't think it is, but this may feel a bit off topic:

When it comes to First Cause, everything we can presuppose about other things doesn't quite apply the same way. First Cause of necessity requires INTENT. Otherwise, it is not First Cause but is subject to a law beyond itself.

The Son of God is First Cause. I'm not saying that as the Baby in the manger he knew it --in fact, I don't know when or if there was some specific time that he realized it, but his will seems to be a bit different from our own. But to add to this --and maybe this confuses more than helps-- the will of man is corrupt, but God changes the nature of our will. This was not necessary for Christ.

 

[Robban]

I had this thought that might solve some issues in Christology:
- Assume that there is some spiritual desire/will that affects our behavior within the constraints of determinism.
- Assume that the only non-physical attribute of a human is the will. In other words the will is the spirit/heart and everything else is the material body.
- Assume that Jesus was simply a normal human material body perfectly aligned to the will of God. There was nothing supernatural about Jesus at all. If Jesus accomplished miracles then these miracles would also be possible for any of us.

So it seems to me that this way of defining the spirit/heart (as will) explains how Jesus could be fully human and fully God, and it also explains how Christians can become fully human and fully God (theosis).

Also there is a difference between will and behavior. A person's will might wish for something but their body might be deterministically unable to follow that will. But the will is where sin is determined. A person who does the "right" thing out of obedience to a law but would not do that "right" thing if the law was absent is sinful. The Jewish Laws are only there to teach a person. By following the Laws hopefully a person will understand WHY the Laws are good through experience and contemplation and gradually align his/her will to God's will thus becoming less sinful.

Any opinions?

Not sure if this fits in here, a quote from the Rebbe;

"If you do His will only when it makes sense,
what has that to do with Him?

You are doing your own will,
you are back in prison."

 

[cloudyday2]

Is it not His will that we hear His voice, and do thereafter.

Agree it may not be as we think, thank God for that at times.

But it is like Him saying,
"This is what I want you to do."


If your wife wants you to help her change the curtains once a week,
you may not understand why.

"But heh, she,s my wife."

Imagine that you could understand WHY your wife wants to change curtains once a week. And imagine that in time you begin to want to change the curtains once a week too - not out of obedience or love for your wife but because you have learned through experience and contemplation how important it is to change those curtains regularly.

Imagine that you could be God and make the plan for the universe. Would your plan match God's? The goal is to align our wishes with God's wishes - not just obey God's wishes. Knowing God's wishes through the Bible and other sources forces us to either obey or disobey. If we obey we learn, and if we disobey we also learn. Either way knowing God's wishes aligns our wishes to his. When our wishes perfectly match God's wishes then we are "in God's image" just as Christians believe about Jesus.

You've heard "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I say "the road to HEAVEN is paved with good intentions". It doesn't matter if the good intentions lead to bad or if the bad intentions lead to good. In the book of Esther the bad intentions of Haman lead to good things for Mordecai, but Haman was still sinful. If we are only being obedient to God rather than striving to share God's wishes then we are still sinning even when we obey. We should not murder because we love our neighbors - not because we are slaves of God. God didn't free the Hebrews from slavery only to make them his own slaves.

That's my theory FWIW.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not sure if this fits in here, a quote from the Rebbe;

"If you do His will only when it makes sense,
what has that to do with Him?

You are doing your own will,
you are back in prison."

That makes me think of something I just quoted in another thread. I see no reason God should credit us with either sincerity or understanding, as if we really even KNOW what to repent of or praise him for or even to ask of him.

From CS Lewis' book, Till We Have Faces: "I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean? How can they meet us face to face till we have faces?"

 

[cloudyday2]

Not sure if this fits in here, a quote from the Rebbe;

"If you do His will only when it makes sense,
what has that to do with Him?

You are doing your own will,
you are back in prison."

I claim that whatever happens is God's will. If I obey it is God's will and if I disobey it is also God's will. Knowing God's instructions doesn't help us conform to God's plan, because whatever we do is God's plan. However, knowing God's instructions helps us learn God's wishes by studying the outcomes of obedience and disobedience. Gradually we wish for the same things as God.

When we don't understand the motivations for one of God's instructions but we choose to obey blindly it acknowledges that God knows more than we know and I suppose that is sensible. Of course we might be unhappy with the outcomes of obedience until we align our wishes to God's wishes.

Jesus wasn't eager to be crucified and said "not my will but thy will". I suppose that is an example of obedience. It is also an example where the will of Jesus doesn't seem to match the will of God's. Or maybe it is simply a different definition of "will". If Jesus could have known what God knew then maybe he would have been eager to be crucified. Or maybe this last act of blind obedience was the final lesson that made the will of Jesus match the will of God perfectly.

I guess I am rambling and thinking as I type, so I hope that isn't too confusing.

 

[Robban]

[

Imagine that you could understand WHY your wife wants to change curtains once a week. And imagine that in time you begin to want to change the curtains once a week too - not out of obedience or love for your wife but because you have learned through experience and contemplation how important it is to change those curtains regularly.

Imagine that you could be God and make the plan for the universe. Would your plan match God's? The goal is to align our wishes with God's wishes - not just obey God's wishes. Knowing God's wishes through the Bible and other sources forces us to either obey or disobey. If we obey we learn, and if we disobey we also learn. Either way knowing God's wishes aligns our wishes to his. When our wishes perfectly match God's wishes then we are "in God's image" just as Christians believe about Jesus.

You've heard "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I say "the road to HEAVEN is paved with good intentions". It doesn't matter if the good intentions lead to bad or if the bad intentions lead to good. In the book of Esther the bad intentions of Haman lead to good things for Mordecai, but Haman was still sinful. If we are only being obedient to God rather than striving to share God's wishes then we are still sinning even when we obey. We should not murder because we love our neighbors - not because we are slaves of God. God didn't free the Hebrews from slavery only to make them his own slaves.

That's my theory FWIW.

I claim that whatever happens is God's will. If I obey it is God's will and if I disobey it is also God's will. Knowing God's instructions doesn't help us conform to God's plan, because whatever we do is God's plan. However, knowing God's instructions helps us learn God's wishes by studying the outcomes of obedience and disobedience. Gradually we wish for the same things as God.

When we don't understand the motivations for one of God's instructions but we choose to obey blindly it acknowledges that God knows more than we know and I suppose that is sensible. Of course we might be unhappy with the outcomes of obedience until we align our wishes to God's wishes.

Jesus wasn't eager to be crucified and said "not my will but thy will". I suppose that is an example of obedience. It is also an example where the will of Jesus doesn't seem to match the will of God's. Or maybe it is simply a different definition of "will". If Jesus could have known what God knew then maybe he would have been eager to be crucified. Or maybe this last act of blind obedience was the final lesson that made the will of Jesus match the will of God perfectly.

I guess I am rambling and thinking as I type, so I hope that isn't too confusing.

I would not worry cloudy, God is probably chuckling,

He may even be saying to the angels,

"Hear, how My children are so fascinated in me."

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm having the hardest time working with the assumptions given. I think mainly because rather than will, what I see as the spirit/heart of everything is consciousness. So for instance my take on Jesus is that He was conscious of both His Divinity as well has His Humanity. It's not something that He "willed" to happen. It's like a Tree that doesn't "will" itself to be a Tree. Or a Dog which doesn't will itself to be a Dog yet it's a Dog.

After that first light of conscious awareness of something, sin for instance, that's when will power comes into play, or not. But I don't see it as the spirit/heart of things.

One problem in discussion is that "will" can mean different things - nouns, verbs, and so on. "Will" is a word with as many different meanings as "belief".

I'm thinking of "will" as in "freewill". I'm imagining there is some non-determinism in our brains where in certain circumstances a spiritual "will" chooses actions in hopes of attaining preferred outcomes. I'm also thinking of "will" as in the Lord's Prayer ("Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"). Obviously Jesus thought "will" was very important, so what did he mean by that?

Of course maybe we are entirely material and "will" is simply parameters stored in the computers inside our skulls. We feel we are making choices according to our "will", but actually we are following our programming.

This idea is a work in progress obviously.

 

[Robban]

[



I would not worry cloudy, God is probably chuckling,

He may even be saying to the angels,

"Hear, how My children are so fascinated in me."

What I mean is, better to show interest than indifference,