Wild Wild Country

FireDragon76

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Netflix has a series called "Wild Wild Country". It's a series of interviews about Ranjeeshpuram in Oregon in the early 1980's. The guru of the commune and international religious movement, Osho, was an iconclast that purposefully sought to offend traditional religious sensibilities- particularly in sexuality and views on the family. He called Mother Theresa, for instance, a well meaning fool and implied she was merely a proselytizer and tool for capitalist moral guilt.

I am finding the series fascinating. There's a mixture of well-meaning ideals at play, but also human failings when people get addicted to power. It seems that the commune suffered from religious bigotry by being labelled a cult, and combined with their assertive and utopian religious ideology, that lead to conflict with predominantly Christian fundamentalist neighbors. In turn this stressed the community and lead to some of the members taking drastic actions to defend their vision of utopia.
 

com7fy8

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purposefully sought to offend traditional religious sensibilities- particularly in sexuality and views on the family.
instead of giving my attention to learning how to love

I myself can make a project of criticizing someone else; and a cult trick is to create an enemy and keep pointing at that enemy as being the main threat to the cult, so people don't notice how they and their cult leaders are wrong.

Even if they might have been right about how certain religious people are merely doing a copy-cat social in-crowd thing, their attacking wrong people could keep their attention away from how we need to depend on and submit to God through Jesus.

But even if I can see through certain people's criticizing trick to keep attention away from how they are wrong, I can be my own main enemy, because of how my character makes me able to give in to anti-love things like fear and paranoia and immoral stuff in my mind, and trying to control people. Jesus can have me growing in love, instead, so I discover how I can be creative with Him, in how He has me loving any and all people.

So, I would say we need to first make sure our attention is with God and how He is correcting and growing us in Jesus . . . so we are not mainly busy with our attention to criticizing others and pointing out how others are wrong. Cults and wrong Bible groups can make is too easy to find fault . . . with them . . . but this can trick our attention away from God and submitting to how He personally rules each of us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

A lot of things in church history, even, were designed to keep people's attention elsewhere!
 
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durangodawood

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....There's a mixture of well-meaning ideals at play, but also human failings when people get addicted to power.....
Totally absorbing doc. I came away with a less "balanced" view than you, feeling disgust for the cultishness and self-superiority of Rajnesshpuram.
 
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FireDragon76

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instead of giving my attention to learning how to love

I myself can make a project of criticizing someone else; and a cult trick is to create an enemy and keep pointing at that enemy as being the main threat to the cult, so people don't notice how they and their cult leaders are wrong.

Osho and the Sannyasins didn't see people like Mother Theresa as an enemy, just somebody that was well-meaning but ignorant.

BTW, "cult" is a perjorative term for new religious movements that does nothing to clarify a discussion. It's typically used by lazy or ignorant people to describe what they don't understand and what they fear.
 
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FireDragon76

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Totally absorbing doc. I came away with a less "balanced" view than you, feeling disgust for the cultishness and self-superiority of Rajnesshpuram.

I don't think many Americans can handle the dynamics of some Eastern religions. We expect religions to be more nurturing and hand-holding, but Osho wasn't that kind of teacher.

Also, some of the neighbors of the Sannyasins described them as appearing "stoned" or "drugged". Perhaps because they were used to living in a society where everybody is a bundled of nerves. I have forgotten how rigid the 70's and 80's America could be. Today, mindfulness and interest in human potential are everywhere outside of fundamentalist Christian circles, and it's transforming how many Americans view life.
 
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dzheremi

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My father drove to the area where these people were with a friend of his at that time and said it was absolutely the creepiest thing he'd ever seen (and he had been in Chile on tour playing a gig at the national soccer stadium in the 1970s when the bullet holes in the walls from Pinochet's mass executions were still fresh, for instance). I don't buy for a second that this group was just misunderstood by fundamentalist neighbors or whatever (though that was certainly a part of it, given that they were essentially trying to take over an extremely small rural town in Oregon), or that they looked stoned to everyone around them because the people judging them were so uptight or whatever. My dad actually was stoned at the time he went there (ehh...it was the rock'n'roll business in the 1980s; it would've been weirder not to be!), and he still said they were creepy as heck.

And whether you call them a cult or not, I think the fact that their leader took sexual liberties with those around him and top members of his group (primarily that Sheela Ananda or whatever her name was) were later indicted on charges of attempted murder for the largest single biological warfare incident on U.S. soil up to that point (the poisoning of salad bars at several area restaurants) kinda speaks for itself.
 
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FireDragon76

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And whether you call them a cult or not, I think the fact that their leader took sexual liberties with those around him and top members of his group (primarily that Sheela Ananda or whatever her name was) were later indicted on charges of attempted murder for the largest single biological warfare incident on U.S. soil up to that point (the poisoning of salad bars at several area restaurants) kinda speaks for itself.

Sheela did seem unstable. She never really participated in the actual religious life at the commune fully (she admits she couldn't stand meditation, for instance): she seemed to be one of those people just attracted to a strong personality.
 
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dzheremi

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Yeah. I haven't seen the series the thread is about (I don't have Netflix), but years ago the show Forensic Files dedicated an episode to the aforementioned salad bar poisonings which went into the history and background of Rajneeshis to provide the context necessary to talk about the investigation, and if I recall correctly it featured some interview footage with Sheela. She seems incredibly cruel and manipulative. It's hardly surprising that she was able to basically take over the group by a certain point. I'm just glad that as far as I can remember none of the people who got sick as a result of the poisonings (which were never able to be tied to Osho himself; he ended up being kicked out of the USA anyway on immigration violations) actually died, hence it was only attempted murder. That's bad enough, but with so many people exposed or potentially exposed, it could've been so much worse.
 
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durangodawood

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I don't think many Americans can handle the dynamics of some Eastern religions. We expect religions to be more nurturing and hand-holding, but Osho wasn't that kind of teacher.

Also, some of the neighbors of the Sannyasins described them as appearing "stoned" or "drugged". Perhaps because they were used to living in a society where everybody is a bundled of nerves. I have forgotten how rigid the 70's and 80's America could be. Today, mindfulness and interest in human potential are everywhere outside of fundamentalist Christian circles, and it's transforming how many Americans view life.
From time to time I see someone post an Osho quote online, and I'm like "yeah, right on!". Then I think for 2 seconds about it, and realize its almost always utterly generic and derivative. I think his main attraction was that he simply validated certain desires we all have, rather than offering much thats truly constructive.

I do think "cult" is pejorative. But that doesnt mean its wrong. And sometimes contempt is warranted.
 
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Albion

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BTW, "cult" is a perjorative term for new religious movements that does nothing to clarify a discussion. It's typically used by lazy or ignorant people to describe what they don't understand and what they fear.

There is a lot of truth in that observation, just as with the ease with which people call their political opponents, Nazis, Racists, or the like.

However, a pile of research about cults conducted by responsible academicians and religious leaders has identified the factors that identify these various groups (Christian-oriented ones, that is) which go beyond the basics that Catholics and Protestants hold in common as Christians. Or to put it another way, groups that reject essentials of the faith.

Since these churches/groups/movements are confusing to many people who do not easily pick up on the critical departures from standard Christian beliefs, the classification (cult) is valuable.
 
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dzheremi

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It doesn't need to a Christian-oriented group, even. Ex-cult member Dr. Steve Hasan (a former 'Moonie') developed his "BITE" model based around characteristics which all kinds of groups may share, whether or not they're Christian or even religious (certain MLM-type groups have been labeled as 'cults' for exhibiting these qualities, for instance).

 
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FireDragon76

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There is a lot of truth in that observation, just as with the ease with which people call their political opponents, Nazis, Racists, or the like.

However, a pile of research about cults conducted by responsible academicians and religious leaders has identified the factors that identify these various groups (Christian-oriented ones, that is) which go beyond the basics that Catholics and Protestants hold in common as Christians. Or to put it another way, groups that reject essentials of the faith.

Responsible academicians no longer use the term "cult" to describe new religions. And these "responsible religious leaders" are usually motivated by sectarianism and a selective narrowmindedness in their judgments. After all, if we are defining cult as an abusive religious organizations, we might as well apply the label "cult" to the Roman Catholic Church, which has a known record for cover-up of abuse at the highest levels of authority. In fact, many Christian churches fall into that category potentially.
 
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FireDragon76

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It doesn't need to a Christian-oriented group, even. Ex-cult member Dr. Steve Hasan (a former 'Moonie') developed his "BITE" model based around characteristics which all kinds of groups may share, whether or not they're Christian or even religious (certain MLM-type groups have been labeled as 'cults' for exhibiting these qualities, for instance).


Sorry, that just sounds arbitrary. After all, many of those criteria are arguably fulfilled by many world religions that are tolerated by the broader society.
 
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FireDragon76

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From time to time I see someone post an Osho quote online, and I'm like "yeah, right on!". Then I think for 2 seconds about it, and realize its almost always utterly generic and derivative. I think his main attraction was that he simply validated certain desires we all have, rather than offering much thats truly constructive..

If you only focus on religion as ideas, and not practice, you are missing the big picture.
 
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dzheremi

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Sorry, that just sounds arbitrary. After all, many of those criteria are arguably fulfilled by many world religions that are tolerated by the broader society.

I think it's a matter of extent and purpose, rather than the specific presence of any one thing on the list, because like the man says in the video, a lot of organizations that get called cults by outsiders defend themselves by saying that they don't have features 1, 2, and 3, so they can't be a cult...while they may engage in features 5, 6, and 7 to a degree that makes the relative absence of other warning signs seem like cold comfort.

Also, that's all these are meant to be: warning signs. I don't think Dr. Hasan (who I've only seen in interviews on Leah Remini's scientology series, just for full disclosure; I've never read his books) is even saying "If you're in an organization that has these, you're in a cult", but rather "these are some features that a cult might have, so if they're engaged in to a degree where you see this model as fitting your organization, it might be a cult."

For instance the bit about chanting...well, that's the normative way of praying (at least historically; for some, still currently) in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. Does that mean that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. are all cults? No. But if you had a smaller sect from within any of these that made it a rule that all members must chant for 8, 10, 12 (whatever) continuous hours per day in order to prove their devotion to their gods or to their leaders or organization, then yeah...that's pretty cult-like.

Besides, maybe I'm crazy, but I think that any of us -- even in mainstream, traditional, theologically-orthodox churches that people don't usually call cults -- should be able to take a model like the B.I.T.E. model (or any similar model, if you don't like that one) and seriously evaluate whether or not we ourselves may be in a cult. I know if I was in a cult, I'd want to know so I could leave. I tend to think of it like the Coptic Orthodox Church had plenty of opportunities to show if it was a cult during the three years I was studying it before I was able to even go to a liturgy, and then more time after that, especially since I was coming from Roman Catholicism, so I knew exactly the kinds of things that I wouldn't accept in a Church (the heavy-handedness, the dryness, the political stuff; not to dig at the RCC, which I don't think meets the definition of a cult even with all that...these are just the things I experienced that I personally didn't like). Yet I didn't actually find any of that, and seven years on it still hasn't manifested itself. I would still question if maybe some Coptic parishes wouldn't still qualify, more on the grounds of the "cult of personality" that can be cultivated by particular priests who are aware of their popularity and reach, but still that says nothing of the religious organization as a whole. And yet there's more chanting, longer services, more in general "to do" (daily prayer rule, fasting, etc.) than in Roman Catholicism, all of which would seem to make it more 'cult-like', if we are to interpret the B.I.T.E. model that way...the difference being that in the RCC, I was told things like "Missing mass is a mortal sin", or "Voting for this bill/this politician is a sin", etc.. while in the Coptic Orthodox Church, regarding their own practices, I was asked "Are you able to do the reading today?" (they liked to have me read because I was the only native English speaker in the congregation who was an adult man, and hence could be blessed to read the Pauline epistles before the congregation, my physical condition permitting), and when I said "No", I was not castigated or looked down upon in any way, but in fact given the same blessing as everyone, and father moved on and asked someone else. Similarly with fasting, while it is the rule in the Church, there have been times when I've been explicitly told not to fast by my priest. And so on and so on.

The point being: arbitrary or not (and I sort of agree with you, but I don't see how it could not be, since religious practice is not like a science where you're dealing with naturally occurring phenomenon that can be measured in standardized units), it does provide some framework that you can actually apply to all groups (even your own) to see whether or not they are cults.

I sleep happily knowing that while my Church may have some of these practices given as examples (chanting, fasting, etc.), they aren't taken to the same degree or with the same end as groups that are more conventionally seen as cults.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't accept that an intense religious life or meditation are inherently dangerous (and neither is hypnosis, for that matter- hypnosis does NOT turn you into a robot willing to do things you would otherwise be unwilling to do). In Zen/Chan monasteries, it's not uncommon for people to engage in sitting or walking meditation for hours at a time, several times per day. As somebody who had extensive experience in meditation in a humanistic Buddhist setting before returning to the Church, I find the notion that meditation is inherently dangerous or part of "brainwashing", absurd. This is hardly different from the shrill evangelical fundamentalists who say meditation opens a doorway to demons (I think demons are perfectly capable of entering through the front door of respectable religion, actually).

In truth, I think everybody in general should be cautious about the degree and kind of their religious involvement. But this should not be restricted to new religions, but even to ancient ones as well.
 
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dzheremi

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I don't accept that an intense religious life or meditation are inherently dangerous

Neither do I. Neither did the fathers (see, e.g., St. Simeon the Stylite, or some of the practices recorded in the the Desert Fathers). But still, Christianity definitely drew a line somewhere, e.g., with regard to Origen's supposed self-mutilation, for instance.

(and neither is hypnosis, for that matter- hypnosis does NOT turn you into a robot willing to do things you would otherwise be unwilling to do). In Zen/Chan monasteries, it's not uncommon for people to engage in sitting or walking meditation for hours at a time, several times per day. As somebody who had extensive experience in meditation in a humanistic Buddhist setting before returning to the Church, I find the notion that meditation is inherently dangerous or part of "brainwashing", absurd. This is hardly different from the shrill evangelical fundamentalists who say meditation opens a doorway to demons (I think demons are perfectly capable of entering through the front door of respectable religion, actually).

This is all above my pay grade, as I've never engaged in non-Christian meditative practices. Again, I'm sorry if my posting that video or defending that model has somehow given you a different impression, but I believe the model is meant to be a guideline, not a judgment unto itself of any particular group or practice.

In truth, I think everybody in general should be cautious about the degree and kind of their religious involvement. But this should not be restricted to new religions, but even to ancient ones as well.

Agreed.
 
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Albion

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It doesn't need to a Christian-oriented group, even.
No, it doesn't. The group in Oregon wasn't Christian. However, it is the Christian-oriented ones that pose a problem for people who listen to their pitches and may think that they ARE bona fide Christian churches.

If a Buddhist crosses your path and you have no interest in becoming a Buddhist, it is basically a moot point whether they conform or do not conform to historic Buddhist principles and practices.

There may be some that amalgamate the beliefs of different world religions, but the problem most often concerns cults that present themselves as the real Christians.
 
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FireDragon76

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This is all above my pay grade, as I've never engaged in non-Christian meditative practices. Again, I'm sorry if my posting that video or defending that model has somehow given you a different impression, but I believe the model is meant to be a guideline, not a judgment unto itself of any particular group or practice.

I don't see Osho as the same sort of religious leader as the Moonies. One of his "ten commandments" is not to accept any religious teaching as true unless you know it within yourself- which is the opposite of authoritarianism.

I think you as an Orthodox Christian would know the natural desire to venerate teachers or holy people. That looks very strange to Protestant Christians of course in the US, who see those sorts of things as idolatry, but that's the fruit of a culture we live in and it's narrowmindedness. Any kind of religious devotion to a human being is seen as strange or evil.

BTW, there's a film on Netflix called Walk With Me, and is representative of the religious group I was involved with. I never went to a monastery but I did participate in listening to Dharma talks and meditation in that religious denomination.
 
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dzheremi

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I don't see Osho as the same sort of religious leader as the Moonies. One of his "ten commandments" is not to accept any religious teaching as true unless you know it within yourself- which is the opposite of authoritarianism.

According to its founder, that is also one of the core principles of Scientology -- a nevertheless highly authoritarian group.

So while it sounds good and open-minded as a principle, it's also hollow enough to not mean much of anything until it is filled in with whatever the group actually believes and does, and of course that can be a wide range of things. There are ashrams that are not sex-crazy, controlling, salad-poisoning, arson-committing nuthouses, I'm sure.

I think you as an Orthodox Christian would know the natural desire to venerate teachers or holy people. That looks very strange to Protestant Christians of course in the US, who see those sorts of things as idolatry, but that's the fruit of a culture we live in and it's narrowmindedness. Any kind of religious devotion to a human being is seen as evil.

And again, that's fine. That's my point of saying that any model that is worthwhile should be able to be applied to your own group, and that it's a matter of degree and 'end goal', of sorts. I don't know of any type of Christianity that has a stronger veneration of saints than Orthodoxy, but here the end goal is radically different, as no saint is venerated in themselves, but for what God has done through them. The saints are our evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in creation throughout time, as Jesus Christ Himself promised us that the Holy Spirit would be in His followers. The point is never "Look at how great this guy or gal from the 4th century (or whenever) is!" So what can the narrowmindedness of others even say to that? That God is not present in His believers, because they disagree theologically with the way that this is recognized in a form of Christianity they're not even a part of? So what. Let them join Orthodoxy, and then see their complaints melt away as the scales are removed from their eyes. Otherwise, it's only so much noise. Just like I"m not going to sit here and say, knowing you're an Lutheran, "The problems with Lutheranism are XYZ", because really, who am I to say such a thing? I'm not an Lutheran, nor do I follow the goings-on in the Lutheran world. Maybe the Orthodox fathers would have something to say about Lutheranism, or have said something (I think the EO Patriarch Jeremias had some interaction with them in the middle ages, but it was long after the Chalcedonian council, so it doesn't concern us anyway), but if so I don't know it, and it's not really relevant to anything that actually comes up in my day to day life.

Basically, who cares if someone who doesn't know what they're talking about calls you a cult? This doesn't really have anything to do with the effectiveness of the BITE model in studying cult behaviors and groups. (And I think Dr. Hasan's Ph.D. is in psychology -- not 100% sure about that -- so I don't know where he would fall on the academic scale; it seems much more accurate and generous to refer to his work at this level as a kind of 'pop psychology', which, when combined with his background, could explain why he would still use the word 'cult', which academics who study religion do not use, because of its pejorative associations. It is the easier to use term in popular/non-academic writings, even if from an academic standpoint it is irresponsible or maybe not entirely accurate or useful.)
 
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